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Question for RedLine Guy

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  • Question for RedLine Guy

    So, I'm at a little piddly show today -- finally finding time to visit with one of my old students and to hang out with a few friends, some of whom I haven't seen in some time.

    I'm there on the fence line playing with my new camera, which I have only used once before since I got it as a gift at Christmas (because I never have free time). Because my horse is on stall rest, I thought I'd see my friends, take some pictures, have a nice day.

    This guy (www.showpictures.net) comes up to me while I'm sitting down erasing all the bad pictures that I just took (I'm not good w/these digitals yet) off my camera and says, "So, playing with your new camera?" How he knew it was new is beyond me, but anyway... I said, "Yeah, and I'm not very good at it." He said, "Are you planning on selling the pictures." Me: "No, just taking some pictures of some friends." Him: "Well, you know, if you share those pictures with your friends, you will be taking money out of my pocket." Me: "You know what? I'm just taking some pictures, I am not a professional, I will not be selling these, and you cannot stop me." Him: "Well, I am the official photographer for this show. I have exclusive rights." Me: "So, are you going to go to each of those parents there w/cameras and tell them they can't take pictures of their kids? Because they are taking money out of your pocket too." Him: "But they are taking pictures of THEIR kids. YOU are taking pictures of your friends. And if you share them, you are taking money out of my pocket."

    So, I decided to take it up with the show manager, whom I've done business with for more years than this guy has been taking pictures. I said, "So and so, how many years have I been coming to your shows, taking pictures of my kids and my friends? When have you not seen me with a camera around my neck?" SM: "She has brought me thousands of dollars in business through the years so I have no problem with her taking pictures of her friends."

    So, the man keeps pressing his point and I said, "You know what? I rarely have a free day to spend with my friends. This is my weekend, and you are ruining my day and I don't appreciate it." I swore to the man that I would not share the pictures with my friends. I told him that I respected that he does this for a living (probably not his full time job, otherwise, he's probably starving) and I see where he is coming from. However, he can't go around picking and choosing who can take pictures and who can't.

    He had me so upset, I was shaking mad. Let's think about it. Every little kid out there has a parent with a camera on the rail. They all did. He has advertised at the secretary's stand. They know he's there. Only my friends knew I was taking pictures and anyone else doesn't know me from Adam and didn't approach me. I'm just a girl out there enjoying my HOBBY and this a$$ - 0 is telling me I can't take pictures of my friends?

    Yes, I get his point but where is it written anywhere on any show program: NO PHOTOGRAPHY ALLOWED WHATSOEVER BY SPECTATORS -- OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPHER ON GROUNDS? Because until they do that, yes, it is open season. There are people out there who enjoy taking pictures and it is a free country.

    The way I see it is, if his pictures are really good, my friends will buy them. But my friends are adults and were few. There were SCADS of parents taking pictures of their kids. THEY are the ones who are in essence taking money out of his pocket. The adult divisions were thin.

    Unless I was a professional, I don't see how this man can stop me. And no, I did not stop taking pictures. Yes, I know he has to protect his paycheck but just because I don't look like a glowing parent, he picks on me?

    What's really funny is, when I said I was not getting very good pictures over the little 18" jumps I was shooting, he said, "Why is that?" (this is when I made nice with the man) I said, "Because there's no hang time." Him: "What do you mean?" So I showed him my camera. He goes, "Oh, well, that's a good one." I said, "No its not -- look how the pony's legs are split and I took it too soon. His back feet aren't off the ground yet." I can see why he didn't know what I meant: http://www.showpictures.net/gallery.php?gid=330
    http://www.showpictures.net/gallery.php?gid=553

    Finally, while I will not be sharing these pictures with my friends, I cannot stop them from visiting my personal website where I regularly display pictures from my various adventures.

    It really pissed me off and ruined my day. So, the question is -- am I wrong to think it is OK for me to take pictures of my friends, or anyone else for that matter and do with them as I wish as long as I don't advertise myself as a professional or take money at all, anywhere, any time for my photos? I'm not a professional!!! I am a hobbyist! Is that a crime?

    Thank you for letting me stew.
    Last edited by Anyplace Farm; Jul. 9, 2008, 12:26 PM. Reason: Because this is a REALLY old thread and I think inviting people to 'weigh in' as the original title said, invites more traffic, which this thread really doesn't need.

    "If you have the time, spend it. If you have a hand, lend it. If you have the money, give it. If you have a heart, share it." by me

  • #2
    Yeah- Mr. Mag had a photographer email him (very nicely) about how he should not be selling photos of shows that are "owned" by other photographers. One, we asked the management to hand out flyers (OK'd) and the other he just showed up with camera and gave business cards to people who asked. He did not solicit business at all.

    I don't think it is cool to advertise without permission of the show, but its a little silly to get pissy about people taking photos of their friends. IMO, that photographer was pretty out of line. With the new digitals it will be tougher for pros to compete - I hate to say tough shit, but tough shit. For every photographer that is a good businessman, there seems to be one who is a shmuck. (example- my brother paid $2500 for wedding photos that sucked, took 9 months to get, calling and asking and ended up using the ones Mr Mag took anyway). It sounds like there are some photographers who show up, have convenient proofs, charge realistic prices and do good work. I don't think they have reason to be threatened by the guy with the 35mm. The ones who need to be concerned are the ones that people are unhappy with to begin with. If you are going to charge $60 for a 5x7 that takes 10 weeks to deliver, people will look elsewhere and take up the random guy with a business card on their offer.

    Comment


    • #3
      Actually, it just makes me mad what happened to you. Mr. Mag takes great photos. I enjoy sharing them with the BB- photos from the FORK *** and Bobcat Cup. At those events, he won't sell photos- he just goes to enjoy his camera and sharpen skills.... just like you do for your friends. And the photos he has sold have made people really happy and excited that someone got a nice photo of them at the show.

      He also shoots photos at football games and at our new whitewater, running races and triathalons - no one at those events has ever made a peep.

      I understand the pros need to make a living- but I work in real estate consulting- should I call realtors and tell them to stop doing market studies and competing with me? Should my trainer go down the road and tell the other trainer to stop teaching? You make money by being good at what you do, not by preventing competition. That's for communism darn it!

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Agreed. It peeves the hell out of me too that he picked me out of all of those parents. I hate being singled out. I hate it that he made me angry and ruined my day. I've simmered down about it now but on principle alone, I think the guy was way out of line.

        He had the right to protect his territory. Yet when I told him I was not a professional, he should have just backed off.

        He's a parent who is capitalizing on the fact that he noticed there was never anyone to take pictures of his daughter. The only other person who ever shot our locals was Peggy Smith (excellent photog, as we know) and she moved up from the locals and only does them occasionally now.

        I've been going to these local shows for 25 years, taking pix of my clients and friends, watched the start up photogs come and go, and this guy's wife pops out an up downer, daddy starts taking pictures and now, all of a sudden, I have to step aside and quit taking pictures of my friends? Only PARENTS are allowed to take pictures? So, since I'm never going to have kids, I can NEVER take pictures at a show where this guy is?

        Puh-leeze!!!

        "If you have the time, spend it. If you have a hand, lend it. If you have the money, give it. If you have a heart, share it." by me

        Comment


        • #5
          It's too bad you didn't take a picture of him so we can all see and avoid! I am very sorry you went through that stress. Of course you can take as many photos as you want. You did nothing wrong. He did. How stupid is he to alienate a potential customer and anyone she might know? What a narrow minded imbecile. And yes, his photos are those of a beginner in the equine show world. If I'm going to pay for a show photo, it damn well has to be perfect. I wouldn't take anything like his pics if they were free. Unfortunately, there are a lot of photographers who don't seem to understand what we want. So go ahead and save your friend's the money and keep it out of that moron's pocket. Snap away. I would have said "F OFF" and taken pictures of everyone I could, and given them away. He's lucky you didn't.

          Comment


          • #6
            Some shows do hire what is referred to as a "candids" photographer who is to take pictures strictly outside the show ring. I'm guessing show management did not outline what pictures he was allowed to take, whether inside or outside the ring. But...show management evidently did tell you that it was okay for you to take your pictures. So unless there was a contract signed saying the photographer had an exclusive on photos taken in certain areas (inside or outside ring), you were well within your legal right to take your photos. The photo rights provisions have gotten way out of hand. I show Saddle Seat and let me tell you - I've heard of cases at saddle seat shows where it almost came to blows over who had the right to take pictures. He was being pushy and was trying to intimidate you - whenever that happens, always check with show management. If they're okay with your photography, then tell the professional photographer to kiss your _ _ _ _.
            Susan N.

            Don't get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by roastedtoasted View Post
              It's too bad you didn't take a picture of him so we can all see and avoid! I am very sorry you went through that stress. Of course you can take as many photos as you want. You did nothing wrong. He did. How stupid is he to alienate a potential customer and anyone she might know? What a narrow minded imbecile. And yes, his photos are those of a beginner in the equine show world. If I'm going to pay for a show photo, it damn well has to be perfect. I wouldn't take anything like his pics if they were free. Unfortunately, there are a lot of photographers who don't seem to understand what we want. So go ahead and save your friend's the money and keep it out of that moron's pocket. Snap away. I would have said "F OFF" and taken pictures of everyone I could, and given them away. He's lucky you didn't.
              Yes, I have always taken roll after roll of pictures of clients kids and paid for the developing of them and given them copies because there were never photogs around. I have scads of boxes of old photos and NEVER would dream of asking a friend or a client for a penny. We were thrilled when Peggy showed up one year and delighted when she continued to cover our locals year after year. But her pictures were always good. My clients always bought pictures from her, including me, and they always enjoyed the ones I gave them. I couldn't take pictures of them jumping a lot because I had to watch their rounds. But I can assure you, Peggy NEVER asked me to put my camera away. Instead, she helped my former student by letting her shoot with her at a few shows and told her she'd post her pics on her site. She told my student that if any of her pix sold, she'd let her keep the money. Not only is Peggy a professional, she's a delight as a person.

              "If you have the time, spend it. If you have a hand, lend it. If you have the money, give it. If you have a heart, share it." by me

              Comment


              • #8
                The guy was a big jerk. You did nothing wrong. What an a$$.
                Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'd have done what you did, asked management and then when given the go-ahead I would have smiled and polited the pita photog from here to eternity. Whilst ignoring his odd statements that I'm stealing money from his pocket.
                  I can understand a photog not wanting others around if they have exclusive rights to shoot the show. But to stop spectators from taking pictures they don't plan on selling but do plan on sharing? Sounds pretty nuts to me.
                  You jump in the saddle,
                  Hold onto the bridle!
                  Jump in the line!
                  ...Belefonte

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I second the request of having a picture of this jerk! You can take pictures for your enjoyment and private use (who is to say that you don't take the pictures for your own scrap book!) almost anywhere! I mean, go to any sports event, there are tons of photographers, competing! Being there with a camera is only half the rent - the lesser half at that! getting a good shot is the tough part, not even considering the business part!

                    I would have not given him any promises - non that I wasn't intending on keeping anyhow! Now show us the pics you took!
                    Originally posted by BigMama1
                    Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                    GNU Terry Prachett

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think it is awful you were treated like that. I also go to shows when I have my horse laid up to take pictures of friends. No one has ever said anything.

                      If people want to pay him for a photo that is their choice. Not everyone there is going to have friends taking pictures for them.

                      Unless there was something in the rule book or posted about it he had no right to tell you that. And if he told you that, he needed to tell everyone with a camera.

                      That's sorry!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        He's probably wondering why he doesn't sell many photos-and is blaming it on the folks like you. Taking his busines by taking their own photos. Perhaps someone could give him a clue that his photos just aren't very good! What a jerk. Snap away.
                        see my ribbon quilts at: www.ribbonquilts.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The only thing I can see that you did wrong was letting a fruitbat like this dude ruin your day.

                          I would have just looked at him seriously and said something crazy, like "But it's my divine duty. Cameras like yours steal the very souls of horse and rider. This one was blessed St. Frecklestine and posesses soul-restorative properties." If he persisted, a simple "Be gone, demon!" would suffice.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That guy was totally out of line. It almost sounds as if he threatened you (maybe not directly but it sounds like you felt threatened, or at any rate harrassed).
                            I think he should be told that if he ever talks to anyone like that again he'll find himself out of a job!
                            Sorry you got treated that way.
                            Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
                            People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
                            "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by TB or not TB? View Post
                              The only thing I can see that you did wrong was letting a fruitbat like this dude ruin your day.

                              I would have just looked at him seriously and said something crazy, like "But it's my divine duty. Cameras like yours steal the very souls of horse and rider. This one was blessed St. Frecklestine and posesses soul-restorative properties." If he persisted, a simple "Be gone, demon!" would suffice.

                              Hahhahaha! I will be sure to be wearing all black when I say this. And I won't wipe the mascara out from under my eyes. That should complete the effect.

                              "If you have the time, spend it. If you have a hand, lend it. If you have the money, give it. If you have a heart, share it." by me

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Anyplace Farm View Post
                                Hahhahaha! I will be sure to be wearing all black when I say this. And I won't wipe the mascara out from under my eyes. That should complete the effect.
                                It's a foolproof plan.

                                If he got really nasty about it, one can always spout something about religious oppression. Not so good for business.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Sounds to me like you did the right thing - consulted show management. The arrangement, if any, is between the photographer and the management. If he's got a problem - he should have taken it up with them.

                                  Sorry it ruined your day - I'm sure it was disconcerting to have a stranger pressure you like that.
                                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                  -Rudyard Kipling

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Anyplace Farm View Post
                                    So, I'm at a little piddly show today -- finally finding time to visit with one of my old students and to hang out with a few friends, some of whom I haven't seen in some time.

                                    I'm there on the fence line playing with my new camera, which I have only used once before since I got it as a gift at Christmas (because I never have free time). Because my horse is on stall rest, I thought I'd see my friends, take some pictures, have a nice day.

                                    This guy (www.showpictures.net) comes up to me while I'm sitting down erasing all the bad pictures that I just took (I'm not good w/these digitals yet) off my camera and says, "So, playing with your new camera?" How he knew it was new is beyond me, but anyway... I said, "Yeah, and I'm not very good at it." He said, "Are you planning on selling the pictures." Me: "No, just taking some pictures of some friends." Him: "Well, you know, if you share those pictures with your friends, you will be taking money out of my pocket." Me: "You know what? I'm just taking some pictures, I am not a professional, I will not be selling these, and you cannot stop me." Him: "Well, I am the official photographer for this show. I have exclusive rights." Me: "So, are you going to go to each of those parents there w/cameras and tell them they can't take pictures of their kids? Because they are taking money out of your pocket too." Him: "But they are taking pictures of THEIR kids. YOU are taking pictures of your friends. And if you share them, you are taking money out of my pocket."

                                    So, I decided to take it up with the show manager, whom I've done business with for more years than this guy has been taking pictures. I said, "So and so, how many years have I been coming to your shows, taking pictures of my kids and my friends? When have you not seen me with a camera around my neck?" SM: "She has brought me thousands of dollars in business through the years so I have no problem with her taking pictures of her friends."

                                    So, the man keeps pressing his point and I said, "You know what? I rarely have a free day to spend with my friends. This is my weekend, and you are ruining my day and I don't appreciate it." I swore to the man that I would not share the pictures with my friends. I told him that I respected that he does this for a living (probably not his full time job, otherwise, he's probably starving) and I see where he is coming from. However, he can't go around picking and choosing who can take pictures and who can't.

                                    He had me so upset, I was shaking mad. Let's think about it. Every little kid out there has a parent with a camera on the rail. They all did. He has advertised at the secretary's stand. They know he's there. Only my friends knew I was taking pictures and anyone else doesn't know me from Adam and didn't approach me. I'm just a girl out there enjoying my HOBBY and this a$$ - 0 is telling me I can't take pictures of my friends?

                                    Yes, I get his point but where is it written anywhere on any show program: NO PHOTOGRAPHY ALLOWED WHATSOEVER BY SPECTATORS -- OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPHER ON GROUNDS? Because until they do that, yes, it is open season. There are people out there who enjoy taking pictures and it is a free country.

                                    The way I see it is, if his pictures are really good, my friends will buy them. But my friends are adults and were few. There were SCADS of parents taking pictures of their kids. THEY are the ones who are in essence taking money out of his pocket. The adult divisions were thin.

                                    Unless I was a professional, I don't see how this man can stop me. And no, I did not stop taking pictures. Yes, I know he has to protect his paycheck but just because I don't look like a glowing parent, he picks on me?

                                    What's really funny is, when I said I was not getting very good pictures over the little 18" jumps I was shooting, he said, "Why is that?" (this is when I made nice with the man) I said, "Because there's no hang time." Him: "What do you mean?" So I showed him my camera. He goes, "Oh, well, that's a good one." I said, "No its not -- look how the pony's legs are split and I took it too soon. His back feet aren't off the ground yet." I can see why he didn't know what I meant: http://www.showpictures.net/gallery.php?gid=330
                                    http://www.showpictures.net/gallery.php?gid=553

                                    Finally, while I will not be sharing these pictures with my friends, I cannot stop them from visiting my personal website where I regularly display pictures from my various adventures.

                                    It really pissed me off and ruined my day. So, the question is -- am I wrong to think it is OK for me to take pictures of my friends, or anyone else for that matter and do with them as I wish as long as I don't advertise myself as a professional or take money at all, anywhere, any time for my photos? I'm not a professional!!! I am a hobbyist! Is that a crime?

                                    Thank you for letting me stew.

                                    I've alluded to events like this in several other posts, in fact, I know exactly who this guy is so I know how you felt at the time. Just to set the record straight, he's an amateur photographer that got into photography a few years ago on the local show scene (nothing but horses), and thinks he is a professional now as many of those you will find doing the local shows and harassing people are. This guy is smart but nothing special in that he has three cameras, one for each lens (something you can learn just from going online and reading forums where people talk about their field gear), and I can probably guess his setup. He has the 70-200 IS on his 1D (makes sense because that lens/camera combo is what many pro sporting event photographers use and he probably got his when others were upgrading to the newer 1D models as they were released), the 28-135mm on his Digital Rebel XT, and the 24-70mm on his 5D for close up shots and portraits.

                                    As more people are buying the low priced Nikon and Canon DSLRs (exactly how he got where he is right now) many realize that they are capable of doing great things with a little bit of learning but unfortunately, this particular fellow believes he really is a pro (quite a few locals have indulged his belief because they bought into it) when he's just an amateur who has exploited the local show scene for a few years and made good money doing it. He had no photography background before he started doing horse shows a few years back and I know quite a few real event photographers who use the inexpensive consumer level cameras (they are cheap to replace or insure) and spend their money on lenses and other equipment which are going to be the big cost for anyone who is doing photography professionally or otherwise so it's nothing new when I see photographers like him popping up at events.

                                    Photographers like him can get VERY angry (I'm talking about facial twitching and veins pulsing kind of thing) if they see someone else with a camera snapping lots of pics, especially someone with a DSLR and a nice telephoto zoom lens because believe it or not, many of them use the same stuff you can get from Best Buy or any run of the mill photography shop which is exactly the case with the gentleman you encountered. It's kinda like finding out that Superman gets his powers from eating healthy and working out so he probably feels his dreams of being a photographer are threatened by people who are learning the truth of better photography through discovery as he did. The only differences between you and him is that you have one camera that you are learning to use, more tact, and you obviously look better in breeches than he would.

                                    If you look at a lot of the equine photographers, you can usually break them down into three different types. Those that go around doing nothing but horse shows (like the gentleman you encountered), the ones that do equine portrait photography and the occasional horse show (I have a friend who has done that in addition to painting horse portraits), and those who are event photographers that do horse shows in addition to other events which allows them to be flexible in their shooting (Redline). It's hard to tell the really good ones from the bad ones but a lot of them are really mediocre because they are the first type and are downright robotic in their shooting. Occasionally you are lucky enough to get those like Redline who have shot all manner of events and know what is going to work and what might be really interesting to see.

                                    Professionals, regardless of their field or level of skill, like to think that they are special and nobody else can do what they do, so I just laugh and move on with my day, especially when I know that the "professional" is someone like him. Because they walk around with several inexpensive cameras, a few used lenses they picked up on Ebay, and a business card, they certainly won't get any professional recognition from me unless they can show me something that looks like it's worth paying for. The same market changes that allowed them to do pro photography at their budget also threatens their business because they really didn't spend that much money getting into it but they did so when it was easy to make a profit or they did it in a place where digital cameras beyond point and shoots are considered alien technology. He got into it back when the DSLR market was fairly small and it was Canon or Nikon in the stores. Now you have Sony (hope you can find some good lenses around here for that), Olympus, Fujifilm, and even Pentax in retail DSLR markets so people can go out and get anything for their budget. Being selected as the official photographer of an event really means you are the one they would like to have present and it doesn't mean much beyond "we like you enough to let you photograph the event and we'll give you some space to advertise and sell your photos" so I can't help but chuckle when they go out of their way to harass you. If he does it again, ask him if he'd like to meet Bob or if I'm there and I notice it (not likely with my schedule these days) I'll put him in his place as I have on several other occasions.
                                    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by LexInVA View Post

                                      " so I can't help but chuckle when they go out of their way to harass you. If he does it again, ask him if he'd like to meet Bob or if I'm there and I notice it (not likely with my schedule these days) I'll put him in his place as I have on several other occasions.
                                      seems to me....he spent more time telling the OP not to take pics than taking pics....another thing that would not have gone on well here in the deeper Southland that seems a good way to get a pop tossed in your face....

                                      anyway...OP he's a person suffering from "little man importance syndrome" with no manners and no future in what he is doing....ignore him he'll shrivel up and go away soon enough

                                      Tamara in TN
                                      Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                      I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Anyplace Farm View Post
                                        And if you share them, you are taking money out of my pocket."


                                        Thank you for letting me stew.
                                        the proper Southern response is "Wellll,you don't look like you're starving none to death to me " follow with a big ole sweet smile,head tilt and walk off...

                                        Lemme know if you need any others....

                                        Tamara in TN
                                        Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                        I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

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