Parelli training...what do you think??

[Sannois]

But you miss her point, You will nnot have a Prix St. George, Or Grand Prix Level Dressage horse by doing those levels. And I am surprised anyone would think you would!

[katarine]

Sometimes people like to buy a gadget, they find it motivates them. They like the idea that they'll get past the inertia of fear+ ignorance+ lazy and actually teach their horse, and in turn, themselves. So, they buy the package and maybe they use it.

Hello? Don't all of us either a) have a piece of gym equipment in the house we never use or b) just sold one on ebay at a loss ?

My point being: people like a gadget, and they go for it. Whether it's needed- that is a different story. Hell, you coudl cut out sugar and take the stairs, or buy that idiot looking contraption on QVC, the one that'll take off 2 pants sizes by Sunday! Don't blame Parelli or Clinton or insert name here for deciding to make a buck over our need for STUFF. They are horse trainers, not saints

Finally- I see Ray Hunt's name in here, and I can tell you, having done a clinic of his, he is one helluva horseman, and good to the core. Oh, and he uses his own version of a carrot stick, btw. The one I saw appeared to be the retractable metal car antennae, with electrical tape over the sharpish end where they broke it off the car, and a ratty bandana tied to the other

[saratoga]

alabama...I love your signature line.

For me, I think the problem with Parelli is that every person I've known who does it is a real ding-a-ling who can't ride and has no clue. That's what's turned me off to it, but I have no interest in learning more about it anyhow. I have no desire to ditch my bridle for a Savvy String around my horse's neck. It just does not interest me.
Maybe some day I will personally meet a Parellite who does impress me and I will change my mind. There must be some out there....

[Roguelet]

I may not explain this well, but here goes: the levels program teaches you every technique and teaches the horse every response to that technique that anyone needs to train their horse to do any discipline in the highest level. Once you get above the lower foundation levels, he encourages you and even requires you to use the techniques that you have learned to teach your horse to excell in your chosen discipline. It's a group of levels knows as refinement, and it is where the training comes in for your various disciplines. You take the general "cues" for lack of a better word that you have learned through the levels, and use these cues to develop certain high level behaviors, just like any other training program. First you work on the basic cues, then you gradually refine those cues as you progress until you and your horse have reached the level that you strive for... whether that be dressage, reining, or galloping your horse into a moving trailer!

[LMH]

Sannois *I* do not miss the point...it seems others do...it is FOUNDATION training...you use it for principle training then MOVE ON to Grand Prix, Hunter, whatever using the same principles.

There are 10 levels to the program...most people aren't even familiar with the first 3. The first 3 levels are the basics if you will...after level 3 you can focus on the skills necessary for a particular discipline.

Do you have a GP level horse that you trained? Do most people have Olymic level horses in the first 3 years of training?

You use the principles based on horse pyschology...and then you TRAIN the horse with the principles..
.
What I mean is any horse takes time to train-all horses start as beginner horses...so there isn't an "end" to Parelli training-I just don't understand why people want to pigeon hole it....it is a principle of training...



Would you say the O'Connors are beginners? They still use the Parelli method to train all their horses...what's the big argument?

[LMH]

saratoga I know several...just let me know when you would like to see one-the ones I know can ride the pants off most people.

[Sannois]

Well my question is, if they are so successful, why does Pat or Linda not show the upper levels??? Or at least Linda?? I dont think you will see Anky Van Gruensven or Isabell Wert doing the Parelli method or any other NH Program. Like someone said just a few posts up. It does not interest me, I have no need for it, and For what its worth I have passed the Riding instructors certification course.
I am curious, LMH What drives you to be so into Parelli?? I was under the impression you rode for years and years and learned as a child and have shown the A circuit extensivly. Now If I was going to try and bring along a mustang, I would follow Dennis Reis, but then to me he is just a good cowboy, and quite intune with his horses! He also doesnt say you have to buy my stuff, yes he has a package, but he has never said MY way is the only way, He never really encourages people to buy anything. He is very immersed into the animal or folks he is working with. Not cracking jokes for the crowd.

[Sandy M]

Ah, but that's MY point: 9/10th of the Parelli people I know do NOT move on from that Foundation. Parelli is "it" - they need go no further - and a lot of them never get on the &*(&% horse!

As for the O'Connors - they used those techniques long before they ever HEARD of Pat Parelli - they just didn't know they should call it PNH - but hey! marketing a big name ALWAYS helps. The O'Connors need $$$ just as we all do - probably more so to compete at their level. I notice I don't see any big magazine ads for combined Parelli/O'COnnor clinics any more (which were OUTRAGEOUSLY priced), nor any big articles (there was ONE in Practical Horseman about a year ago) about "how Parelli techniques work for me" by David O'Connor.

Nor do you see Linda Parelli showing in dressage - but she sure bad mouths dressage training a LOT. And I don't care how wonderful Parelli training is, jumping bareback WITHOUT A HELMET is just plain stupid. I've seen Parelli clinics where LP damned near came off (or did come off, fortunatley without injury)and could have been badly hurt - but oh, she makes hay of it: Explains how her horse refused because SHE did not have the confidence to jump the fence. Like this is a revalation of some sort! (A letter writer to a horse magazine was AMAZED by Linda's not blaming the horse and received this revalation as though it had never occurred to her- I suppose it may not have) I guess she (and LP) never heard the old horseman's saying (There are those ODG again!) "Throw your heart over the fence and the horse will follow."

I have to agree with the poster above. There's nothing intrinsically wrong and a lot RIGHT about PNH as basics for greenies (both horse and rider), but it is nothing that I need or want to use. My present horse I acquired as a barely broke coming 5 year old, slightly over 16 h.h. - i.e., adult horse strength, but baby level training. Using conventional, non-abusive, non-Parelli methods, he is now (and has been since he was about 7), a "broke" (hate that term!) horse who leads, ties, loads, can jump, is a good trail horse, has excellent ground manners, and COULD be jumped bareback in a neck rope - though I only did it a few times for a lark. He's schooled to 2nd or 3rd level dressage, he showed in up to 3' hunters (and schooled higher). He evented a few times successfully. You can put beginners on him safely, etc. All done by a not particularly gifted amateur working on my own, with the "eye" of a friend to help me on occasion in the dressage, and with weekly lessons, but no training by a trainer. For those who need PNT - who are green with greenies or more experienced people with horses with problems - I can certainly see the worth of PNY to a point, but the examples of PNY devotees I have encountered - including at least two certified PNT trainers - are a real turnoff, and most of their students seem to be the type who will never advance their horses' training beyond "games."

[katarine]

Craig Johnson knows a thing or two about reiners, and he's spending some time with Parelli.

There's stuff to be learned there, and stuff to toss in the can. That is no different than any other trainer, or anyone, anywhere. Also, anyone can get hurt or make a mistake, RE: Clinton got kicked, so there I witnessed Ray Hunt make a HUGE mistake with a clinic attendee that resulted in a separated shoulder and concussion for her. Do I respect him less? No? Did I learn from it? Yes. Did he? I will bet he did.

[LMH]

What drives me? Interesting question I guess...you are correct I have ridden most of my life and shown hunters on the A circuit (how successful I was we can leave up to public criticism! LOL...actually I spent most of my time in the adult hunters-a brief period doing the A/Os and a bit of time the Adult jumpers...

I am not a famous spectacular rider but I can hold my own on most days...and I do not consider myself an ignorant backyard rider.

I started buying and breaking babies in 97...using Parelli's old 7 games...then went on to train them "traditionally."

Anyway---I love everything about the training method...everything. I love the horse pyschology behind it...I love how my horses have responded. I have watched show horses all my life and kept thinking there had to be a "better way"---a horse so light you could THINK turn here or go there and he would respond. That I could ride with reins yet have the same response without them...I wanted a partnership with a horse that he would willingly do whatever I asked without fear.

I got bored to tears watching horses go around after being lunged to death...the common use of draw reins irritates me to no end...so I always wanted a way for my horse to move in an athletic frame SANS gadgets.

Parellis program provides the information needed to achieve that goal...since committing to the levels program 100%-and trust me that has NOT been an easy task with my background-I have seen nothing but amazing results...my horses literally come running when they see me and wait at the gait until I come get the next one to "play" with (and no I never use treats to bribe)...they have become calmer, safer and braver...more athletic and theirs gaits have improved since using Linda's Fluidity principles.

The load easily into any trailer with me sitting on a fender...they maintain whatever gait I ask while I do nothing...I do not kick them to go or pull them to stop. The engage and use their hineys.

I can do all my riding in a halter or at most a snaffle bit---I have just started working on Carrot stick riding, moving towards bridleless riding-why you might ask? Because if I can get my horse around a 3ft course bridleless, imagine the finesse he would offer with the higher level communication offered by a snaffle.

They jump braver, cross creeks when one wouldn't before, they don't spook, are not jumpy and most importantly appear "happier."

I started this journey as a sort of test, deciding I would jump ship if my horses did not progress faster than in a traditional training program or if they got worse.

I have not found one piece of this program that has caused me safety concern...not one. The progress of all 4 horses (ages coming yearling to coming 7yo) is leaps and bounds beyond my expectations.

Well you asked...and I gave a pretty full answer but now you know.

Oh and what will I have at the end of it? I horse I can do anything with-show on the hunter A circuit, or jumpers, dressage or reining...anything I want just depending on that horse's particular athletic ability-he will be trained to do it all and will likely have talent in certain areas.

He will be a thinking partner...not such a bad goal.

[LMH]

Just to be clear-I am not saying there are not some Parelli nuts out there...but I have also met dressage nuts, and hunter nuts, and WP nuts...

I have shared why *I* like the program and why *I* find it successful.

Then again...maybe it isn't PNH at all...maybe I am just an incredbily talented horsewoman...something to think about I guess.

[LMH]

One more piece of info Sannois...as you and many others know, several years back I had an "unruly and dangerous" horse-I sent him to 3 trainers, including 2 cowboys...he hurt everyone in his reach...and hurt them bad.

I had no solution and had him put down (the thread is archived for anyone interested)...that decision nearly killed me and it has left me burdened ever since. Had I had the information I now have through Parelli, perhaps the outcome would have been different.

Anyway I decided I NEVER wanted to be in that position again-in Level 4 you learn to deal with dangerous horses-so that is my goal...so I have the tools and "savvy" to be able to handle any horse I come around. The Parelli office learned of my story and Linda emailed me personally with a very sincere and thoughtful email. So there is more than glitz and marketing-these people have kindness and feelings as well.

And for those that criticize her riding...good ole George Morris has seen Linda in action and expressed how impressed he is with her...just a little fyi.

[Sandy M]

Hmmm... can you give me a print source for George Morris' comment? Every picture I've seen of LP doing her version of dressage has been very incorrect - which doesn't mean she doesn't have a good seat or anything like that. I Just would question her grasp of dressage per se from her comments - as I mentioned above, the "bad" dressage teachers she has encountered(and they seem to be the ONLY kind she encountered) must have been REALLY awful.

I rode one of my event horses bridless over entire courses - with no "PNH" training. THough in the long run I decided NOT to sell him, at one point when I had him for sale, I set up a triple in and out at 3'6", 3'9" and 4'3" and rode him through it reinless, dropping the reins 10 strides out. No PNH training. And for the record, I have NEVER used drawreins on my dressage/trail horse and have always regarded them as "the razor in the monkey's paw," and I am sure you know what a hot topic peole arguing the pros and cons of draw reins can be.

Again, I think PNH definitely has it's value for SOME people, but it is PNH as the be all and end all, the Parelli students and trainers who will proselytize ANYONE who DOESN'T do PNH and brand them "ignorant and cruel" if they don't "do" PNH, while at the same time, they barely even RIDE their horses, and finally, the RELENTLESS marketing of stuff that can be obtained elsewhere for much less, that just turns me off, even if I were in the position of starting a greenie, even though I can accept the value of some of the PNH/NH stuff in such cases. Obviously, LMH, NONE of what I've listed applies to you and you have found real value from the PNH system. But I will say you probably could have equally found it elsewhere form a GOOD "regular" trainer. It is, indeed, sometimes difficult to find such good trainers and PNH is a good fall back for basics, but it does not appeal to me and I have done just fine without it and without being abusive or creating any "problem" horses.

[Roguelet]

Wow, that brought back memories. I remember jumping in grade school, there was one particular instructor who loved to make us jump with no reins. All the horses did it with no problems... this was WAY pre-Parelli, and I have never said nor will you ever hear me say that his way is the only way to do things (as a matter of fact, my current "trainer idol" if you want to call him that is Michael Richardson!) But it was funny to see us gals, one by one, ride toward a course, then drop the reins prior to the first jump and do "airplane wings in 2pt!" to work on our leg position and balance. Uugh... what memories!

[Sannois]

Well said Sandy M You think like I do, And I had a whole post in response to LMH but the blasted server threw me off and I lost it.
I just watched all I could stand of a 1 hour Parrelli Seminar, its was on RFDTV at 4 PM EST its over I think, but It was grating on the nerves. All the riders he had in the ring doing the "Games" were scary at best. One little girl was standing behind her paint pony, with the string of the carrot stick wrapped in front of the horses hind legs, The object is to teach them to back away frm "Bob" wire as Pat told it! Well forget the wire, which no one with horses should have, JMO BUT the little girl was in danger of getting really hurt buy that horse. He was kicking out at the rope severaltimes. The whole ring was turmoil. And all he kept saying was Thats the Porcupine method, or the squeeze game or the Yo Yo game or the Friendly game. No real direction as to how they were doing it, Just buy the Tapes! You dont need anything else. I swear its is like one of those Amway Seminars! I think no matter what we will always be on different sides of the fence about this LMH. But it works for you and I am glad. I still am surprised you dont find him irritating, I would have thought you would have been more impressed with Dennis Reis. I am .

[Sandy M]

Roguelet - The horse in question was a 16.3 near leopard App who was soooo strong and LOVED to jump. I never even felt him use his back until we schooled a few times in a gymnastic that eventually got to 5'3". At 4'3", he DID snap his back, but even big fences were easy for him, so it was a blast to drop the reins and just let him go - he set himself up better than I ever could. Our biggest difficulty was doing under 3'6" courses: I had to ride him agressively or else he'd loaf up to fences and just "step" over - not good for hunters!

[kaluha2]

First LMH:
Allow me to say two very important things before I begin which are, I love your enthusiam and I equally love your signature line. LOL!

This one sentence jumped out at me: "there had to be a "better way"---a horse so light you could THINK turn here or go there and he would respond."

I like this sentence because this is exactly what classical dressage has given me, although your feeling of lightness may or may not be different than mine.

"I wanted a partnership with a horse that he would willingly do whatever I asked without fear."

Again, I have to thank dressage for this too. It is a wonderful feeling isn't it, to ask a horse and they willingly give it to you, and with a simple pat and whisper of a "Good Boy" you can actually feel them get bigger, more confident, more self assured.

"so I always wanted a way for my horse to move in an athletic frame SANS gadgets."

Me too! I found that way taking a much different path than you.

"Parellis program provides the information needed to achieve that goal..."

For You------Others have taken a different path. There is not one day that goes by that I do not thank each and every mentor for taking the time with me and freely giving so much of their knowledge.

"-I have just started working on Carrot stick riding, moving towards bridleless riding-why you might ask? Because if I can get my horse around a 3ft course bridleless, imagine the finesse he would offer with the higher level communication offered by a snaffle."

Now, you and I had a pretty good understanding of things before you made the above statement and coming from a hunter/jumper background, you should readily know this but I'll ask anyway: How do you expect to get the same level of response jumping a course bridleless with two sticks? Let's not even get into the safety issues this presents.

Added to this, I saw LP give a demonstration of this with several riders in the ring. One was a woman and her horse very new to this technique. Although this training method started off with a gentle tap on the horses right side of his head for a left turn---it soon escalated into some pretty good wacks to the old noggin. The horse was flipping his head wildly and actually
threatened to go up on more than one occassion. All the while LP is telling her to "wack em". Thankfully, the lesson was stopped (by the woman) before the horse actually got his feet off the ground. Is this indicitive of how a horse is trained to be ridden with sticks?

"They jump braver, cross creeks when one wouldn't before, they don't spook, are not jumpy and most importantly appear "happier."

I find that dressage has given me this too. Of course I am of the mind set that a horse spooks because of a rider anticipating for the most part anyway. Again you and I enjoy the fact that our horses are confident, brave, and not spooky---it is great isn't it----but again different paths.

"Oh and what will I have at the end of it? I horse I can do anything with-show on the hunter A circuit, or jumpers, dressage or reining...anything I want just depending on that horse's particular athletic ability-he will be trained to do it all and will likely have talent in certain areas."

My horse goes from the hunter ring to the dressage ring (I'm not into reining). As a matter of fact, every horse I have shown has done this even when it was not the "in" thing to do.They also go trail riding or quietly hack down the road with cars wizzing by. Again you and I have taken different paths but enjoy much the same.

"And for those that criticize her riding...good ole George Morris has seen Linda in action and expressed how impressed he is with her...just a little fyi."

In the 40 some odd years I have been around horses and trainers, there is one thing I learned at a very early age, and that is, few in this business are foolish enough to knock someone else in the public eye. One hand washes another so to speak. There are many "good" riders in this world------Great is another story.

Please keep your enthusiam level to it's highest---no matter what method you choose, it is refreshing to see. Keep riding---keep learning.

[Sandy M]

Well said, Kahlua. About the spooking thing: A lady in our barn is of the age and experience that she should be a Parelli candidate, but she isn't. 'Nuf said. However, although she had compete in trail trials, she has been a VERY nervous trail rider and often dismounted and led her rather elderly Arab home. She said that trail riding was becoming "not fun" for her and I expressed sympathy. I suggest that she and I go out for a trail ride, with me on her horse and she on my 16.2 2nd gen. App/TB cross. I rode her horse as I usually ride mine, even though I kept in the back of my mind that her horse was supposedly "spooky" and difficult. We did a two hour ride, and I rode her "spooky" and "nervous" and "misbehaving" horse almost on the buckle the entire ride. Only once did he get jiggy, and brief half-halt and immediate release of the reins return him to a flat-footed walk. I had to keep remind her NOT to shorten up the reins and ride my horse as though he was going to "do" something, and of course, he never misbehaved. I THINK I finally convinced her that SHE was the spooky one, not her horse, but she has a new horse now - one that I have trail ridden with no problems with its previous owner - and she has informed me that the horse is "too spooky" to trail ride. Sigh. Yeah, there ARE genuinely spooky horses or horses that are a bit hot on the trail, but I'll swear that 90% of the time it's the RIDER who's spooky. I suppose if PNT gets the RIDER over that obstacle, it's worth something. Over my life, I've owned six horses and ridden many, many others, of various different breeds, and after a little gentle work, calm attitude on my part, and using a "companion" to get them through their first few rides, I've NEVER had one that continues to be a fearful, spooky trail horse.

[eclipse]

Once had a Parelli wannabe come up to my (alpha) mare & waggling his finger in her face. I guess she was supposed to move backwards from it! Luckily she decided not to bite this wiggly, looking carroty thingy but instead chose to just stand there looking at him like he had rocks for brains. This Parelli wannabe then informed me that my "mare is stubborn"!! No kidding Sherlock........ya think my "alpha" mare would be a pushover!!! LOL

[Roguelet]

Sandy... now you've brought back another memory. I did a LOT of jumping as a kid, lessons, in arenas, etc. but in college, once I bought my first horse and learned that he was trained in classical dressage, I decided that I needed to learn dressage so I could make him do all those cool things and do them right! (He even knew airs above the ground... I never did get anywhere NEAR that level!)

Anyway, when I was finally ready to do a little training level dressage test, my trainer suggested I do one of those shows that also included jumping... no biggie for either of us! However, these were cross country jumps, and I (not the horse, mind you, but ME) had serious issues with the jump that you had to do FAST while going downhill.

So, I practiced in the field where I boarded the horse at the time, I got comfortable enough with running down a hill and jumping, and feeling like I would topple over his head. We were ready!

On show day, the dressage went as well as could be expected and it was time to jump. They had these bright metal numbers leaning on the jumps so you knew which ones to jump and in what order... and at EVERY SINGLE ONE my horse stopped (as in 4 feet on the ground),looked at the number, then jumped from a standstill. How humiliating! Now, you must realize that he was not scared, and not refusing the jump... just curious, as in "what the heck is that!" As a matter of fact, since he never refused and never took a step sideways or backwards, we didn't even get any faults... but geez, what a day!