Parelli training...what do you think??

[Roguelet]

I started riding horses when I was 6 years old. I did the hunter/jumper thing for eons, then dabbled in dressage, but always had fun doing trails, parades, Chrismas carolling on horseback, camping with the horses, etc. I had "broke" and trained several horses and ponies, and LOVED TO LEARN. I had an opportunity to go to a Parelli clinic. I went. This was many years ago, when people really hadn't heard of him. I learned, I made progress, therefore I wanted to do it again. I have since passed my level one on horse that was in his teens, trained in classical dressage, and an ex-circus horse. We had a blast.

Here's my take on it all. Parelli is a gifted horseman because he understands horse behavior and, most importantly, posesses the un-learnable ability to do things at precisely the right time. Timing really is everything, and I'd say over 85% of the horse-people I know do not possess it. They also don't understand basic animal training. Mind you, a person can be a wonderful rider and have years of experience, but still not understand basic training... and if they do, they may not have the ability to actually execute correct timing.

I think Parelli was great when I was going to his clinics and advancing in the levels but this was pre-Linda (back in the Karen days.) I think Linda is a good rider, but not a good instructor.

I also know that in the beginning you could not buy Parelli products until you were ready. You could not buy level 2 stuff unless you had passed level 1. I like this because if you don't have level 1 down really well, you have no business trying level 2, much less level 7 or 8 which most people want to jump straight to! Oh how cool, let me ride bareback with no halter or bridle and see if I can do figure 8s over jumps! Well, duh, accident waiting to happen.

Back then, every single thing was done with safety in mind and the safety issues were explained in detail. People were successful, safe, and had happy horses. Then people started to notice. They wanted to do it to.

All, and I mean ALL, without exception, of the problems I've seen with the Parelli system are people not qualified to do what they're doing or doing things in the wrong order, or people who just, god love 'em, have no sense of timing no matter how hard they try!

Every negative comment I've read about safety, etc. was addressed in detail in the early years and is a part of the boring but important foundation for the system.

Just because you are in a round pen with a horse and have watched some videos, you are not a natural horseman. Those who want to have opinions, I wish they would seriously read the pages and pages of stuff I got early on, and understand the system. It's in levels for a reason... too many people want to skip to the fun stuff, they get in trouble, Parelli gets blamed.

OK, enough, JMO.
By the way, I hate his RFDTV show, Linda's not great and it really makes him look like an idiot. I can understand why people who are first exposed to him in this setting may think he's not much... I probably would too.

[CrossedWings]

He's just another way to train your horse.... Different method - works for some horses, and not for others.

Other training methods can obtain the same results in any horse - and can even teach your horse to gallop into the trailer (god only knows who would really wants a horse to do that but that's an entirely different topic).

The big thing is: it's not magic, and it won't produce miraculous results. The basic concept of understanding your horse, watching what he is telling you and reacting appropriately is the same concept any training method uses....Reward for doing it right, and no reward for doing it wrong. Just different technique - they all work fine and dandy if the person doing it knows what they are doing. Just different ways to do it...
I personally am not a fan of him, "games" aren't really part of my training - I like it simple:
Reward for the correct effort/movement, and if the horse is not responding correctly I will continue to ask until the appropriate response is reached (even if it's not that great). No games.

But to each his/her own!

[Sannois]

I still think that for the most part this appeals to the older adult who never rode or was exposed to horses as a child, and gets into horses. unfortunatly those are the people that try to learn everything on their own from a DVD or a book. and a few seminars. There are 3 at my barn, over the age of 55, and the 63 year old man already has made his nice calm QH mare nuts. I actually saw hwer pin her ears at him when he walked past her stall. This is not the mares temperment.

[LMH]

I am the only person who has ever seen a non PNH trained horse pin its ears?

I am trying to think if I have ever seen someone NOT training ala Parelli that didn't do a very good job training...

or a NON PNH horse that was not well trained.

Goodness....nope...must only be parelli horses....

[Sannois]

Of course not, but most horses are not always pinning their ears around there owners or when being worked. I think there is a problem with the beginners who get into NH and overdo a good thing. hense the folks I was referring to. Heck the wife of the man I was referring to can no longer just catch her horse, she has to walk WAY out in the field as he walks away from her. Was not always that way. I watched her tack him up the other day, he was pinning his ears at her every time she walked up with a piece of equipment, she said Oh silly boy!
Cant you see my point?? NH in the right hands of someone with some horse knowledge has its purpose, in Beginners hands with out a trainer its not the best situation, cause most of these types dont have the years of horse sense.JMO

[LMH]

There is a problem with ALL beginners-that is what makes them beginners! Some horses have temperaments to deal with the beginner mistakes and some are less tolerant. It doesn't matter what discipline or training method.

Sannois-you seem very determined in your belief that PNH is for little blue hair beginners...as someone else suggested download level1 and level 2 tasks with the assessment criteria-showing what mistakes don't allow a pass....video yourself with these tasks and send them to an instructor. If this stuff is so easy you should be able to pass first go round.

As a reference, David O'Connor passed L2 in 2 weeks I believe, Pat says it takes about 20 hours for L1 and 60 hours for L2. The average horse owner takes 6-18 months to get through L2.

See how you do, then see if you still find it a beginners program...after that try L3 and L4...but for now try an L1 assessment and see how you do.

[monstrpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sannois:
NH in the right hands of someone with some horse knowledge has its purpose, in Beginners hands with out a trainer its not the best situation, cause most of these types dont have the years of horse sense.JMO <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is unique to Parelli work how??

I think this is a generalization about ANY horse activity. It seems the Parelli-type *marketing* ends up attracting more of these types than, say, the average DQ barn, but it's because of the marketing, not because of the work being done with the horses.

The accident-waiting types are almost without exception the ones who are trying to take shortcuts, whether they even realize it or not. Or, they're the ones that, yes, don't have the gift of timing--something the marketers DON'T talk about, because you can't package it and sell it. You might be born with it, or you might be able to approximate it with alot of hard work and meticulous study--just like mastering any other horse-related discipline.

It's the marketing that's doing the dammage, not the so-called NH concepts. So, what else is new??

[inca]

I promised myself I wouldn't post again on this thread but here goes...

My previously mentioned Parelli trained (to a certain extent) horse is a 4-yr-old warmblood mare that has been on STALL REST for over 2 months. She very quietly and politely walks out of her stall each day when I take her out for her 10-15 minutes of longeing and 20-45 minutes of hand grazing after the longeing. She does her longeing with a few bucks here and there on occasion but for the most part, she just politely trots around. She NEVER drags me or tries to come off her circle (and we are in the middle of my pasture, usually with at least one horse loose in the pasture.) She calmly eats grass after we are done with the longeing, even when my other horses are running and bucking and playing on the other side of the fence!

My other mare has literally galloped past us close enough that I could touch her and my Parelli-trained mare who is on stall rest does not even flinch - just walks calmly beside me.

She is on NO calming supplements and gets 3 pounds of grain and 8-10 flakes of hay per day.

Please tell me how my horse is dangerous (I think slc called all Parelli people and horses dangerous), untrained, etc. Please tell me how the training methods have NOT worked. And please tell me with a straight face how every 4-yr-old warmblood on stall rest is perfectly well-behaved! I think there have been PLENTY of threads on COTH that would show a LOT of horses on stall rest go bonkers. (And trust me, this horse was a HANDFUL before we started the Parelli work. Go back to my other post - I totally agree with someone who LONG ago said that people who put down the method have never been desparate enough to try it.)

No, I am NOT going to do Level 3 and 4 stuff with this mare. No, I don't gallop her into the trailer. But, she does walk into the trailer by herself while I stand outside the trailer - we did this last night. No, I don't agree with everything Parelli does and I think he is an arrogant jerk. But, the basic method can be very effective. If it's not your cup of tea, fine. But, you shouldn't assume that everyone who uses it is an idiot beginner who has no clue about horses!

[OakesBrae]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Mmmmmm..... I had a friend who lunged her horse on a short line. She's feeling much better now, many years after her compound, comminuted fracture of her arm, and two surgeries later, with two plates in and out of her arm and bone taken from her hip to help the arm heal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sandy M, I know a guy who fell off his horse and became paralyzed and later died. Should we no longer ride? I've gotten my foot broken while leading a horse (he spooked at water, and stomped on my foot) should we no longer lead our horses? This logic is silly. I guess the Spanish Riding School of Vienna is wrong and stupid and dangerous for ground driving their stallions (work in hand).

And I'd be hard pressed to know of a horse that on a 12' line could reach me with his hind end while I'm up driving his head. Those would have to be some hella long legs. To boot, I know of no one who longes at the END of the 30' line, unless their horse is particularly fresh. I don't use longeing with a horse to wind them down and bucking and carrying on is not tolerated when I longe. Period.

And no, it's not part of PNH, I just wanted to share that it's a good training tool when used appropriately and not, as some would say, this wildly dangerous and stupid thing.

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

[Sandy M]

When you are ground driving in the way the SRS does, you are close enough that the force of any possible kick is less than if you are at that nice distance between 4-10 feet (as you will be with a short line) where they can get real force into the blow. When you walk immediately behind a horse, i.e., right next to them, you get shoved,not kicked should they have such ill manners that they would do something. Also, when you are talking about PNH and a short line, you are talking about greenies or spoiled horses for the most part, not well schooled mature Lipizzaners. Of course, any horse activity has a degree of risk - but lungeing on a short line with a green horse is "asking for it."

I lunge 20 - 25 meter circle, and also do not tolerate misbehavior while lungeing and do not use it to "get the bucks out." But of course, my understanding is PNH does not approve of what most horsemen consider normal lungeing - another subject entirely. I've seen Parelli quotes about "boring, mind numbing" - which would seem to indicate to me that he doesn't understand proper lungeing for schooling purposes.

[monstrpony]

SandyM, you're still making the same mistake about work on a long rope that you're accusing everyone else of making about proper longing. Ground work on a 12' rope is NOT longing, and IF the horse is at the stage where serious misbehavior is still an issue, the work should be done in a round pen instead of on a rope. Experienced "NH" (lord, I hate that term) practitioners who have good feel, good timing and really understand what they're doing CAN work an unruley horse on a rope, but inexperienced people are putting themselves at risk--just like inexperienced folks who get a 20m longe line wrapped around their hands or ankles, and injure their horse's hocks by LTD instead of proper schooling.

[Sannois]

Thank you monstrpony, thats what I was getting at. And LMH you seem to think that I assume this sort of problem does not occur with out a pre packaged program. Yes it does, but alot of times a newby has an experienced trainer at hand. And OH heck I just had a revelation. I dont care! For what its worth, if you read my post I was VERY clear Iwas referring to what I have seen in my barn! As many others have witnessed the same. Anyway Merry Christmas!

[Starsnstripes]

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. How many of us have ridden in clinics with different trainers and have felt we achieved more with one and less with another. There are different methods and different roads that will lead us to Rome. I've been riding for over 30 years and just this year had an instructor make a small adjustment in my leg position that made a HUGE difference in my riding! Why, after all the lessons I've taken, did it take this one guy to see it?

There are many schools out there: round pen, lungeing, line driving, work in hand, clicker training, "natural horsemanship" and there is something useful to be gained from them all. I ask each of you - how many training books and videos do you have in your library right now? Several I would guess (if you're like me) and each one is a variation on the theme. It's kind of like cookbooks - all the recipes are tried, tested and found palatable by at least one "expert" and yet not all of us are going to like each recipe. We choose the ones WE find palatable. And so it goes with the education of horses.

I'm glad we all don't have the same style and taste. Life would be quite boring if we did. And I, to some extent anyway, enjoy reading people's opinions. Where I draw the line is when someone carte blance discredits a method or an educator just because it's a recipe they don't find palatable.

And as regards safety with horses we all know that no matter what recipe we subscribe to there are NO guarantees. I'd wager that most of us, back when WE were the beginners, can conjur up memories of things we did or tried that easily could, and perhaps in some cases did, land us in the hospital. I personally have a couple of lovely photographs of me jumping a horse over a 3'6" jump sans helmet! And this on a mare that had never jumped before! Lucky for me she was an honest soul!

So perhaps before we cast stones we should do a little reminiscing about our own evolution with horses and horsemanship and not, as they say, throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[alabama]

I have to say I don't know much about Parelli except what my sister has told me - (she's interviewed him for some articles and thinks he's a nut job) - so I went to his site to see what I could see.

Surely they can't be serious about the price of their "kits"? Good grief. $257.27 for this?

NOVICE COMPLETE KIT

Includes NEW Level 1 Pack, Halter, 12ft Line, Carrot Stick, Savvy String, and Parelli Tote Bag

[Sandy M]

I think for the most part, serious horsemen areonly bothered or "disagree" with Parelli marketing and the fact that way too many Parelli devotees think that PNH is a be all and end all. In my personal experience, way to many PNH loving owners play with their horses, but never ride them, but at the same time, are quite happy to lecture those of us who DO ride and compete on OUR failings in NOT doing PNH. Also, Linda Parelli and many Parelli certified instructors "put down" dressage without seeming to have a true understanding of it.

I think the Parelli stuff is quite useful for beginners to horses, especially if they are foolish enough to buy greenies (the old "too shares of green are not good"). They need help and Parelli is a good way to start. But I think many people who are educated in the horsemanship of the ODGs (and some OLGs) whether it be Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, George Morris, Podjahski or Walter Zettl, don't NEED or WANT PNH in order to start a horse, and feel really, to put it mildly, annoyed by the Parelli devotees who come on as if everything Parelli says is a "new" revelation and that the experienced people don't know what they are doing if they don't take up the PNH way of doing things. That's all.

I've started green horses by conventional methods, without round pen, but including some of the things that Parelli does/teaches, long before Parelli ever marketed them, taught to me by people who did them long before Parelli was even born. All my horse have non-traumatically learned to have good ground manners, to lead, to tie, to jump, to trailer load. I could jump courses - not just single jumps - on my eventers, bridleless (and I, unlike LP, wear a helmet). Only once did I need to turn to a specialist and that was with a mare who had trailer loading issues before I got her and with whom, as a 9 to 5-er, I just didn't have the TIME to give the kind of work she required.

I'm sorry - but when I go to horse expos, I just have to stifle a little snorty laugh when I see all these people walking about with their newly purchased "carrot sticks," (or the C. Anderson white equivalent) purchased for more money that comparable tools available at any tack shop for a lot less. What Parelli teaches can be useful - but too many people never move beyond it, and frankly, I think there are a lot of people who teach it better and at less expense. But hey, the man's making a hell of a good living! If it weren't for the suckers who don't understand that there is MORE to it than just the rote games, I'd say "more power to him." Unfortunately, too many purchase their sticks and videos and think that they now "know it all." (and I've met some "certified" PNH instructors whom I would NOT let touch MY horse.)

[LMH]

Can you explain what you mean by move beyond Parelli? Exactly what is you understanding of the "end" of Parelli?

I repeat---everyone please download the L2-4 tasks and explain to me what is beginner about these tasks.

I challenge ANYONE on this BB to submit a tape to an instructor showing the tasks performed and proof of passing correctly.

Certainly there is SOMEONE on COTH that can pass these simple skills???

[alabama]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I repeat---everyone please download the L2-4 tasks and explain to me what is beginner about these tasks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Download them from where?

[Sandy M]

All I am saying is that the Parelli games and levels do not produce a dressage horse or a trained jumper. They are basics - and even beyond basics - but they are not dressage training or jumper training to a showable level (perhaps it is "finished" training for reiners or other western disciplines - being only a sometimes western rider, though I have ridden cutters and reiners - I can't address that). I've seen pictures of PNH trained horses doing supposed bridless "piaffe" and they are VERY incorrect. Linda Parelli openly "disses" dressage (she must have had some VERY bad trainers in Austrialia). Will the top Parelli Level produce a finished team of 4-in-hand driving horses? No doubt it will be useful for starting a horse in any discipline (if you don't know any other way or think that what Parelli teaches is "new"), but a ready to show reiner, cutter, dressage horse? If it produces a reliable trail horse for a beginner rider, retrains a problem loaders, etc.that's wonderful, but that's not a horse ready to, say, show 2nd or 3rd level, or do the 3'6" Ammy Owner Hunters. I have a friend who is enthusiastically doing PNH with her horse and ready to test re Level 2. Why? Because her horse has physical problems that prevent her from showing him as a dressage horse, and Parelli is fun for her. But if her horse were 100% for advancing in his dressage, I doubt she'd be doing PNH to the degree she does.

[Roguelet]

Just to comment on a few things. Pat will be the first one to tell you, and did quite often in the beginning, that he learned from the likes of Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. He did not invent any of this and has never claimed to. One of his favorite phrases was "It's so old, it's new again!" All he did was put these training methods into a levels program and a form that the "layman" could better follow and understand. He wasn't born into this, in fact he was a rodeo rider, rode "not naturally" and learned from his numerous mistakes and bad experiences, which he will gladly tell anyone.

Second, yes the levels program will train a horse for any discipline, IF the person doing the training has a full understanding of the system and the ability to progress correctly through the levels without jumping ahead or doing things incorrectly, therefore creating a problem instead of fixing one. Same as any other training program. There are precious few in ANY program who can truly perfect a high level horse in any discipline (there are far more who THINK that they can.)

Linda isn't my favorite person as far as the program goes, and I don't know a lot about her; as I said in a previous post, she came around after I first became involved in the Parelli system, but it's my understanding that she has competed in dressage... isn't that right? And so isn't she just as entitled to her opinions as anyone else? I do, however, think that she has in some ways hurt the program, but Pat will put her out there anyway because she's his wife and he loves her.

I've mentioned before that I dislike the RFDTV show. I personally think that with Pat and Linda and everyone else in the arena doing numerous things (probably to keep people entertained and show them a lot of different things) it distracts Pat from what he's doing and quite honestly makes him look a bit incompetant.

Back when he started, he would come to the clinics (this is back when he, himself, did even the level 1 clinics) and he would be on foot. If someone had problems with their horse, he would go help that individual, put their hands/body in the right position, or work with the horse himself first to get a feel for that horse, then make you stand pretty much on his feet and get a feel for exactly what he did. He was there for the riders/horses, not for the auditors. IF someone wanted to audit, fine... and he would answer questions and include them in what he was saying, but it was, in fact, a riding clinic, period. He was more one on one, more focused, more helpful, and IMO quite good. I might add that I'm really not easy to impress. I have yet to meet one of his instructors who is as talented as he is on this one on one stuff, but that's probably why they are his instructors and not out doing it on their own.

It takes a rare person to have the natural ability and timing to do what he does, the "marketing" ability to develop it into a system that is easy to understand and follow, and the teaching ability to hold the attention of his pupils and teach in an understandable language. This doesn't make him perfect at all, just better qualified than most to do what he does. I've been to many clinics by others who may be awesome with the horse, but horrible speakers or boring as mud... that doesn't keep someone excited and interested enough to really delve into something. Others are arrogant (well, OK, Pat is too, but in a different way... not sure how to explain... other very well known "natural" type clinicians are arrogant in thinking that they are better than you are... easy to pick up on and a huge turn-off for me. After all, they have no idea who I am or what my level of experience or ability is. Pat's arrogant in thinking he's really good at what he does... but he is, or at least used to be, so I can deal with that sort of arrogance.)

I think highly of him becauses I got into him when he was brand new to being a clinician. At that time he got a lot of ridicule for being so structured and educational with his methods, safety, etc. when others were coming out and skipping all of that boring stuff, going right to the hands on, and selling their stuff to anyone who wanted it. He did not do that in the beginning and got quite a bit of flack for it. I think from necessity, Pat has now turned into more of a marketer to stay competitive in his field, but in my opinion it has really "pimped" his program.

I guess the things he's being criticized for now are very much the same things that he was criticized for being a "stick in the mud" to not allow in the beginning. Just like in everything else, you can't make everyone happy.

[LMH]

SandyM-Parelli himself says the first 3 levels are FOUNDATION training-the cake...L4 and beyond is the icing-that is where you focus on upper levels in each discipline.

For those interested in the downloads:

http://parelli.parellinet.net/info_p...nloads&t=links

Scroll down the page a bit and you will see "Level Assessments"---the task and criteria are listed for Levels 1-4