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VENT - WHY is it so hard to find good help?!?!?

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    That might be best.

    You seem to be ignoring the fact that our COL here (which appears to be far less than yours) has a direct effect on wages. Going rate around here is actually less than $8.50/hour. I was paying Juan's brother Pedro about $7 an hour, for the same work. Pedro didn't have a problem with it, and was happy to have both the work and the money. He worked for about three different people, and had housing provided for him, plus transport to the jobs he couldn't walk to. Juan has his own house and transportation, so I think he deserves a little more and I'm happy to pay that. He also works for at least two other people besides me, getting $8.50/hour from all of them. Again, this is a hell of a lot more than minimum wage, something he's not capable of earning since his English leaves a lot to be desired. And since I'm not responsible for getting his wife pregnant, I think he's going to have to work to foot the bill for it. Sorry, but if you're coming into the country and want to take from the economy without contributing to it, you take what you can get.

    And just FYI, I was paying $8.50/hour during season in Wellington in 2004 for barn help.
    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
    A life lived by example, done too soon.
    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

    Comment


    • #42
      Wellington on what planet? The rest of us were tipping the bathroom attendents more than that.
      Somebody help me out here...I can't do this.
      http://community.webshots.com/user/racetb

      *Save The Prairie Dog*
      \"Jean Louise, stand up. Your father\'s passing.\"

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #43
        Wellington, Florida. Seven and a half miles from the showgrounds, about twelve from White Fences. I can show you the cancelled checks if it would make you feel better.
        In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
        A life lived by example, done too soon.
        www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

        Comment


        • #44
          I have no idea where ESG is so have no idea what the economy and going rates for most things there are. Vost of stable work does vary wildly from area to area. I'm in CT and we're pretty expensive on most things here, which we're used to. However, I have read other posts on what some folks make at some stables and have thought, "Hell, I'll sell my own place and go work for them!" I personally think it's great that some places pay a living wage for any equine job...as most of us know that's not always possible unless you're willing to go without many everyday luxuries for your living wage. (which was never an issue for me, I would rather do what I love and have a junk car than work in a cubicle)
          But I will agree that on the outside Alagirls' post did sound condescending towards Hispanics. Not so much the gist of the post if read between the lines...but the terms used and the costs quoted. I'd never pay anyone $1.50 an hour for anything. Heck, you can't get the neighborhood teen to rake your leaves for less than $25.
          I'm *assuming* Alagirl was meaning to convey that many immigrant barn workers from Mexico have a better work ethic, better experience and will work for less wages than our domestic folks. I'm *hoping* she didn't mean just grab a fresh Mexican newly here to exploit them and their dreams by paying them next to nothing for work nobody else seems to want to do. I'm also hoping she has a better outlook on immigrant workers than another poster on here ...'from fl."
          You jump in the saddle,
          Hold onto the bridle!
          Jump in the line!
          ...Belefonte

          Comment


          • #45
            Ok lets see if my math will hold up here...

            When I was renting a cottage, I had to clean 10 stalls one morning a week to earn off $100 a month. So thats 40 stalls, for $100. Lets see roughly $2.50 a stall. So for 7 stalls I would be paid $17.50 at that rate.

            When I was a barn manager in '92 I was paid $250 a week for care of 6 horses 5.5 days a week, all day. Works out to more like $2/stall. Again 7 stalls would have been $14.00

            Here and now at the track, we pay our grooms (as do most but not all track barns) $100/horse per week, for 6 days work. Maxing out at around 5 horses per groom. So figure that would make the stall part of the job, 30 stalls out of $500 but not all stalls *Thinking* Lets say $50 a day in stall mucking. Would make it $10 per stall, so $70.

            Ok bottom line, you're paying diddly. Now he agreed to diddly so thats his own fault. He did approach you, good for him. Bad that you see it as trying to milk you for more. Its very possible he thought that the money would even out. And it took 3 weeks for the (Possibly hormonal) pregnant wife to chime in and point out that its not a lot of profit for the work and time involved.

            Now here's what I am going to try to say diplomatically,

            Stall cleaning is repetitive, non demanding, manual labor. It takes time and effort and since care of an animal in involved, should be done thoughtfully and well.

            What effort a worker puts into his work definitely helps define their value. But so too can it be said that what appreciation an employer shows to a worker defines what kind of value they have as a boss.

            I know many people who think they could retire on the opinions they hold of themselves but would be broke in doing so. And likewise many others who would live like royalty if their reputations were money.

            As a horse owner, farm owner, and heck human being, each of us has to determine for ourselves which assets in workers and colleagues we value most and least. For me I value loyalty and genuine trying. I will help ANYONE who shows gumption and desire to do these jobs. Because we all know how little horse workers are appreciated by mainstream (office, store etc.) workers. I fail to have the need to further denegrate people who want to succeed in this difficult world. So I will try to build their skills and help them to achieve a foothold from which to scale to a higher and better job in the future. So that they may reap the rewards both financially and satisfactionary of their jobs.

            ESG- You have different values it seems. But I won't fault different. I acknowledge, and so should the rest of us here, that for the Ying's there are also Yang's. For the Vanilla's there are Double Fat loaded Chocolate swirls.

            We all love horses and all need to keep our $$ in line to afford them. Let's not jump on ESG even if we differ from how she does things. Its quite possible that her (definite) frugality has some upswing like better helping her horses lack for wants in life.

            ~Emily
            "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

            Comment


            • #46
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
              That might be best.

              You seem to be ignoring the fact that our COL here (which appears to be far less than yours) has a direct effect on wages. Going rate around here is actually less than $8.50/hour. I was paying Juan's brother Pedro about $7 an hour, for the same work. Pedro didn't have a problem with it, and was happy to have both the work and the money. He worked for about three different people, and had housing provided for him, plus transport to the jobs he couldn't walk to. Juan has his own house and transportation, so I think he deserves a little more and I'm happy to pay that. He also works for at least two other people besides me, getting $8.50/hour from all of them. Again, this is a hell of a lot more than minimum wage, something he's not capable of earning since his English leaves a lot to be desired. And since I'm not responsible for getting his wife pregnant, I think he's going to have to work to foot the bill for it. Sorry, but if you're coming into the country and want to take from the economy without contributing to it, you take what you can get.

              And just FYI, I was paying $8.50/hour during season in Wellington in 2004 for barn help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Honestly, if this logic works so well for you, why the vent about finding good help? Because for most of us a vent usually happens after repeated experiences, not just one bad incident (oh, OK - one incident if you are a teenager with all the self restraint that comes with the territory).

              Yeesh, ESG comes on and says "can't find good help"! Three pages of "That cost structure ain't working around here" or "I wouldn't do it for that amount" ensue, but apparently everyone else is well, just not clever enough to know how it works in Houston or Wellington?

              Now come again, how's that help situation working out for you?
              Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #47
                Typical of you, DMK. Just take someone else's experience and the norm in some part of the country other than yours, and it's wrong.

                Okay, I'm guilty. I'm a cheapskate asshole who had the temerity to want a worker to do the job they were paying for. String me up from the highest tree you can find.

                Happy now?
                In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                A life lived by example, done too soon.
                www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                Comment


                • #48
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racetb:
                  Wellington on what planet? The rest of us were tipping the bathroom attendents more than that.
                  Somebody help me out here...I can't do this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Just let it go if it's making you crazy--apparently others didn't find it offensive, and as we know from our media, if the public believes, it must be true.... There is no point in talking about this or anything else with someone who doesn't want to hear what you have to say, and if both parties don't listen, then nothing changes. The best thing to do when you see or hear something that you find offensive and no one wants to hear you is to make sure that you would never be guilty of that. If everyone did that, the world would change for the better.
                  "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." -Don Marquis
                  **CEO of the TQ "Learn How To Ride or MOVE OVER!!" Clique**

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    I KNOW I'm not the only one feeling awfully queasy at the "between the lines" ugliness that pervades a couple of these posts. Forget about the COL discussion. There's something far more insidious and evil in there. Got to go...I think I see the INS coming up the drive and a cross burning on the front lawn.
                    http://community.webshots.com/user/racetb

                    *Save The Prairie Dog*
                    \"Jean Louise, stand up. Your father\'s passing.\"

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      Xctrygirl and racetb, I think I have the answer.

                      You see, both of you live where it gets cold. Living in the cold country and working with horses pretty much sucks. I know - I lived in eastern MA for three years and found that out firsthand. Dry-stall during a New England winter is every Southerner's worst nightmare. I'd never coped with water buckets that couldn't be pried from the wall because they were frozen there, nor not being able to turn horses out for days on end because of the glue-like mud during spring thaw. That's why you all pay so much more for help - because nobody really wants to be there, especially in the winter.

                      OTOH, in FL as in TX, it's nice during the winter. Transplanted Northerners might bitch because the temperature got up to 87 degrees today, but you don't hear me complaining; I'll take that over 18 inches of snow any day, something I experienced every Thanksgiving I was unlucky enough to live north of the Mason-Dixon line. Blecchh. You couldn't PAY me enough to live and work there again. And I strongly suspect that most of our neighbors to the south feel the same way.

                      People pay to be in a warm climate during the winter. One way or another, they pay. Tourists and horse show competitors pay more to be in Swellington than most places. Not because the showgrounds are so wonderful (I suspect Ocala's are better, though I've never seen them), or the local nightlife is so exciting, but because it's warm. You can wear shorts on Thanksgiving. The grooms can live in stalls ( and often do) during season, and get to work in a nice warm climate for decent wages. Doesn't make it right or wrong, that's just the way it is. If you want to be where it's comfy, you have to pay - one way or another. A testament to this statement is why Pedro left my (and the two other ladies who employed him) employ. Are you ready for this? He went back to Mexico in mid July because Houston was too hot for him. It was more comfortable in his hometown. Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

                      Anyway, that's not really the issue. The real issue here is that after three weeks, the person I hired to do very specific chores for a very specific price, suddenly decided to up the ante and demand more money. I don't know how the rest of you were raised, but when I make a deal, I stick to it. I expect the same of the people for whom I work, and who work for me. If they can't deal with that, it's time to say goodbye, which I did this morning. I fail to understand why I'm a cheapskate or a wretch because I expect someone to honor an agreement they made.

                      JME.
                      In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                      A life lived by example, done too soon.
                      www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horse watcher:
                        Look at what you pay and then wonder why you can't get any good help. If you pay $10/hour for 35 hours a week and then multiply that by 52 weeks you would make an annual income of $18,200. And this probably does not include any benefits, sick days or anything else. In Canada that is below the poverty level as I must assume it is in the states. And all this to work with dangerouse animals, where injuries are common, working conditions are bad etc. Often people do this for the love of horses but to think of this as any way to get ahead are nuts. As a owner of horses I know the expense and the fine line between profit and expenses but do we really think that this is good pay for the job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        Actually, that's about TWICE the American poverty level, which is set esentially at minimum wage ($5.15 per hour), working full-time (40 hours per week), which comes out to nine-thousand and some dollars per year.

                        And where I am, less than that is a VERY GOOD standard of living. And, by the way, ESG, I'm with you. If you contract with someone for a job with specific duties and at a specific salary, they have an obligation to do tht job.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Last one. If the New England winters gave me the convictions I have today...and heart and mind to be sickened by some of what I'm reading..bring on the Ice Age!!...and God forbid the man might have been coming to you openly and honestly after three weeks to discuss hours and pay arrangements that weren't working out. Asking for a raise is acceptable..every boss in the free world doesn't accuse "the cheese" of not honouring an agreement ...he hasn't broken any DEAL.
                          http://community.webshots.com/user/racetb

                          *Save The Prairie Dog*
                          \"Jean Louise, stand up. Your father\'s passing.\"

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I think the issue is, not one of minimum wage, it is more one of money paid for value given. We have a helper at our home stable, he feeds,waters, cleans stalls, adds bedding when needed, turns horses out - with the proper boots and sheets or blankets, watches to make sure they are behaving, brings them in, brushes them, reblankets, and puts them away. He is responsible for ordering feed, maintaining the fence, and on several instances he has gone to shows with my wife to help. This young man is invaluable, he lives in the guest wing of our house, and never hesitates to pitch in. He goes to night school to learn English. I would be embarassed to pay him only $10.00 an hour, and I would be mortified to search for a "fresh Mexican" to replace him. The care and concern he shows towards our animals is worth far more than minimum wage to us.
                            POYBGP, member in good standing.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              I don't know ESG, it gets freaking cold here and I've been paid much less than that for barn chores! I got paid $6/hr to clean stalls on a regular basis (I think there were 6), $8/hr to do full chores when the BO was out of town, $5.35 working in a drugstore,..

                              Guys, it totally depends on WHERE you live! I'd die to work for more than $10 an hour WITH horses! My boyfriend went to college for 7.5 years and he's getting paid less than that! That is an extreme case, but c'mon, you have to realize that not everyone lives in an area where you can get $10/hr working at a gas station! (It's more like $6 here!)

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                You pay peanuts - you get monkeys!
                                ... _. ._ .._. .._

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by harryjohnson:
                                  I think the issue is, not one of minimum wage, it is more one of money paid for value given. We have a helper at our home stable, he feeds,waters, cleans stalls, adds bedding when needed, turns horses out - with the proper boots and sheets or blankets, watches to make sure they are behaving, brings them in, brushes them, reblankets, and puts them away. He is responsible for ordering feed, maintaining the fence, and on several instances he has gone to shows with my wife to help. This young man is invaluable, he lives in the guest wing of our house, and never hesitates to pitch in. He goes to night school to learn English. I would be embarassed to pay him only $10.00 an hour, and I would be mortified to search for a "fresh Mexican" to replace him. The care and concern he shows towards our animals is worth far more than minimum wage to us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  I think you hit the nail on the head about good employer/employee relations by showing respect and getting it in return. Your young man sounds like he is lucky to work with you, and vice versa.
                                  "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." -Don Marquis
                                  **CEO of the TQ "Learn How To Ride or MOVE OVER!!" Clique**

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Damn, and I thought Lincoln freed the slaves....wait a minute...he did!

                                    The joy of shoveling horse excrement, sweeping, and then putting up with bitching about being overpayed...yeah, boy! Makes one wonder why it'd be hard to get help.

                                    Get an American worker, don't hire some illegal Mexican and whine you had to since you couldn't afford to pay non-slave wages, and pay them a decent American wage.
                                    "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
                                      Typical of you, DMK. Just take someone else's experience and the norm in some part of the country other than yours, and it's wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      Typical ESG. Not even closely related to what I said. I pointed out that a pretty good chunk of people came on and said that wouldn't cut it where they lived. Some of them even lived in places where the COL was lower than Houston... or Wellington.

                                      I sincerely hope it works out for you - finding good barn help is hard even if you pay more than the prevailing rate. I doubt you will get much argument there. But come on here and vent about topic A, get 3 pages with a majority of people saying your idea of an equitable solution is not realistic for them and somehow I'm the one with an unrealistic expectation? Oooohkey dokey - I'm sure that makes sense somewhere...
                                      Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        ESG--for what it is worth, people didn't go crazy until the "fresh Mexican" comment was made(and not by you, I know). That was a little much for most of us, and seems to have tipped things into a less friendly zone. While I understand your comments about honoring a promise, employment is generally "at will," meaning that the employee can walk away for no other reason than they feel like it. I can't fault that either--I have walked away from jobs that I didn't like, where I felt that the pay was not all compensatory for the situation. So while it leaves you in a frustrating situation, I don't think you should let this make you crazy either. If that is a fair rate for your area, then why not call some local stables and see if there is someone who needs a couple of extra hours of work?
                                        "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." -Don Marquis
                                        **CEO of the TQ "Learn How To Ride or MOVE OVER!!" Clique**

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          roflmao!...I think
                                          http://community.webshots.com/user/racetb

                                          *Save The Prairie Dog*
                                          \"Jean Louise, stand up. Your father\'s passing.\"

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