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Bill to ban slaughter passes in Illinois, signed by Gov. 5/24 - update p. 27

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  • #261
    Xegeba, still motivated to produce abroad. For the time being, the Illinois company is talking about relocating to Canada. I'm yet to figure out if tax law in the EU has a large part to play in motivating the US and Canadian based plants.

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    • #262
      Originally posted by Blueshadow View Post
      Xegeba, still motivated to produce abroad. For the time being, the Illinois company is talking about relocating to Canada. I'm yet to figure out if tax law in the EU has a large part to play in motivating the US and Canadian based plants.
      The Belgium owner has GOT to pay taxes(US) on the product in Europe... even though they operate at a loss here... any idea what their tax basis is ? ETA... I almost postive that if the Belgians want to operate a SH in Mexico... they need a Mexican partner... at least I know that I can't go start up a business in Mexico without a Mexican partner.

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      • #263
        Xegeba, is that still true? I thought that restrictive foreign asset ownership (FDI) laws in Mexico had all but been wiped out (they used to be very stringent, I know). That's why so many US companies operate over the border these days, along with the cheap labor. I really need to do some homework on the EU tax basis - it's not my field!

        Comment

        • #264
          I posted a poll in the breeding forum asking breeders what their plans are for next year sort of as a survey to see if the majority will adjust their behavior or not due to perceptions of the market becoming glutted. I realize the breeders here don't represent the same group that is glutting the low end market with horses but I think we have enough variety it will be interesting to see the responses. This would be an interesting thing to poll in a more mixed board with breeders of all disciplines and breeds involved.

          Comment

          • #265
            Originally posted by Blueshadow View Post
            Xegeba, is that still true? I thought that restrictive foreign asset ownership (FDI) laws in Mexico had all but been wiped out (they used to be very stringent, I know). That's why so many US companies operate over the border these days, along with the cheap labor. I really need to do some homework on the EU tax basis - it's not my field!
            I'm sure huge corporations don't... McDonalds, Costco... but I'm pretty sure that if I wanted to open up business... a Mexican citizen would have to be a partner... although I could be totally wrong...

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            • #266
              Originally posted by Blueshadow View Post
              Xegeba, is that still true? I thought that restrictive foreign asset ownership (FDI) laws in Mexico had all but been wiped out (they used to be very stringent, I know). That's why so many US companies operate over the border these days, along with the cheap labor. I really need to do some homework on the EU tax basis - it's not my field!
              I know that some Corps. operate in CA... the cheap labor walks through the border to work and then walks back to go home. There must be a reason for this. The first word that comes to mind is TAXES.

              Comment

              • #267
                Hmm. At least, the after-tax wage is higher here for the workers. I find it hard to understand why the Belgian plant from Illinois is wanting to relocate to Canada rather than Mexico. I would have thought that cheap labor and fewer restrictions via. animal protection laws would have been enticing. Maybe there is something there about taxes.

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                • #268
                  Originally posted by Blueshadow View Post
                  Hmm. At least, the after-tax wage is higher here for the workers. I find it hard to understand why the Belgian plant from Illinois is wanting to relocate to Canada rather than Mexico. I would have thought that cheap labor and fewer restrictions via. animal protection laws would have been enticing. Maybe there is something there about taxes.
                  for instance... if you have a rental property in Mexico... the Mexican Gov't wants around 35(?) percent. CA wants their share...

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                  • #269
                    Originally posted by Blueshadow View Post
                    Daydream Believer, thanks. I absolutely agree. We've already seen it work. I don't care what numbers you look at, they ALL show a massive drop in the rate of slaughter in the US and Canada. I agree with Bluey that sometimes Rescue facilities are not well-prepared and that's a concern. However, I also believe in learning by doing.
                    Again, the non-answer I keep getting for those for this misguided slaughter horse ban, AS PROPOSED.

                    "We don't know and don't want to worry about the consequences", "something" will be done. "I have hope". "Once we pass the ban, we will worry then".
                    That is all I have been getting since this started.

                    Not a very good way to show real care, compassion and concern for horses, to follow an agenda without plans for the results of it, from those that condemn slaughter as abusive.

                    Someone even quoted Martin Luther, indeed. May as well quote the president of the HSUS.

                    It tends to be frustrating to have people want to pass this ban, "just because", with little thought or logic behind it.

                    Comment

                    • #270
                      Exactly

                      Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                      You are talking about shrinking the horse industry by considerably more than the 1% deemed going to slaughter today.
                      Do you realize the unintended consequences of that?
                      Less manufacturers of supplies, feeds, saddles, fly spray, gizmos and gadgets, less research money, less equine vets and centers, less people fighting to keep riding access to parks and other lands, less subscribers to COTH...

                      Many already foresee that because of demographics. We don't seem to be raising that many kids interested in horses, not in the numbers that older people in the horse industry will be leaving as they age and die off.

                      I don't know how to put this so it doesn't come across as a personal comment towards anyone, not my intent at all, but I have trouble understanding how anyone today can bred horses and intend to continue doing so at any level, in today's horse glut, with that many horses out there without homes AND want to stop slaughter.

                      To want to ban slaughter and contribute to the excess of horses out there seem, as in the small animal world, antagonistic with each other.
                      Why be part of the problem, not the solution and quit breeding?
                      Someone has to start somewhere.

                      Comment

                      • #271
                        Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                        Again, the non-answer I keep getting for those for this misguided slaughter horse ban, AS PROPOSED.

                        "We don't know and don't care, "something" will be done. "I have hope". "Once we pass the ban, we will worry then".
                        That is all I have been getting since this started.

                        Not a very good way to show real care, compassion and concern for horses, to follow an agenda without plans for the results of it, from those that condemn slaughter as abusive.

                        Someone even quoted Martin Luther, indeed. May as well quote the president of the HSUS.

                        It tends to be frustrating to have people want to pass this ban, "just because", with little thought or logic behind it.
                        I quoted MLK... who the hell is HSUS? and bluey... you are rather adept at never answering any question posed to you... Again... if horses that are going to die anyways ...blaze the trail for their fellow kind... so that the future generations do not have to suffer their fate... is there a problem with this?

                        Comment

                        • #272
                          While you do't need lots of room to feed an animal you do need lots of feed for horses, calle, sheep etc. Comparing the U.S. and New Zealand to say Japan is like comparing apples to oranges. Some countries have 1000's of acres of grazing land and some have none. The cost of feeding livestock in them is as differant as night and day hardly making them the same. We export meat because its cheap to raise here compared to countries that import meat pretty basic economics I'd think.

                          And yes your right claddagh oil and horses are two differant things. But I was using oil as an example of something some people in the world think we should not import from them. But I think you were very well aware of that.
                          Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                          Comment

                          • #273
                            Originally posted by county View Post
                            While you do't need lots of room to feed an animal you do need lots of feed for horses, calle, sheep etc. Comparing the U.S. and New Zealand to say Japan is like comparing apples to oranges. Some countries have 1000's of acres of grazing land and some have none. The cost of feeding livestock in them is as differant as night and day hardly making them the same. We export meat because its cheap to raise here compared to countries that import meat pretty basic economics I'd think.

                            And yes your right claddagh oil and horses are two differant things. But I was using oil as an example of something some people in the world think we should not import from them. But I think you were very well aware of that.
                            I think the Saudi's would be more than bummed if we all went Al Gore... except Al Gore isn't going AL Gore...

                            Comment

                            • #274
                              Not a very good way to show real care, compassion and concern for horses, to follow an agenda without plans for the results of it, from those that condemn slaughter as abusive
                              What exactly have you done in the previous years to stop all those horses going down to mexico? As you can see, there has been a drastic reduction in horses slaughtered in 2006 from 2004-5, as blueshadow and onthebit have posted. Did you care about the horses going to mexico those years?
                              *** 4 More Years ***
                              *** 4 More Years ***

                              Comment

                              • #275
                                The reason the Belgiun plant wants to go to Can is logestics. The U.S. is a very large country trucking horses from the north to Mex is much more costly then to Can. Theres already a relatively new plant in Mex. I would think it makes sense to put one in Can. business wise for them.
                                Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                                Comment

                                • #276
                                  Originally posted by county View Post
                                  The reason the Belgiun plant wants to go to Can is logestics. The U.S. is a very large country trucking horses from the north to Mex is much more costly then to Can. Theres already a relatively new plant in Mex. I would think it makes sense to put one in Can. business wise for them.
                                  uh oh... new plant? More costs...

                                  Comment

                                  • #277
                                    Yes, I would like to ask Bluey, what is the pro slaughter movement's answer to where all the unwanted horses went over the past 10-15 years? If there is one statistic that is not in doubt, it's that the total number of horses slaughtered in North American has fallen dramatically in this time period, with large decreases over short periods of times when individual states enacted anti-slaughter legislation. From 17 plants, we are down to 3. Where did they go and where are all the consequences? (I really am asking for answers). I've already suggested that there have been endogenous responses to this (more retirement and rescue facilities, lower rates of theft and fraud, etc.) but I'm interested to hear how the pro-slaughter movement answers this.

                                    Comment

                                    • #278
                                      Originally posted by county View Post
                                      While you do't need lots of room to feed an animal you do need lots of feed for horses, calle, sheep etc. Comparing the U.S. and New Zealand to say Japan is like comparing apples to oranges. Some countries have 1000's of acres of grazing land and some have none. The cost of feeding livestock in them is as differant as night and day hardly making them the same. We export meat because its cheap to raise here compared to countries that import meat pretty basic economics I'd think.

                                      And yes your right claddagh oil and horses are two differant things. But I was using oil as an example of something some people in the world think we should not import from them. But I think you were very well aware of that.
                                      county... blueshadow was not talking about verdant grazing land off the I5... and let us not forget the ever wonderful over-priced and over-rated Kobe Beef.

                                      Comment

                                      • #279
                                        Where did all the extra horses go? All over the country horse population is at about 9,200,000 up from 6,000,000 in 92. Way to many IMO but its pretty hard to stop people from breeding even more. I'm not into restricting numbers or saying some can breed and some can't. For people I'd like to but not animals.
                                        Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                                        Comment

                                        • #280
                                          County, that's an interesting number. But no reports of horses wandering the streets without food or shelter, or of a rapid advance in starvation and abuse? Maybe others have additional information on this. But I find the number difficult to reconcile with Bluey's earlier comments on the dwindling size of the horse industry (or potential dwindling, upon the abandonment of slaughter) which I thought was being proposed as a concern of the pro-slaughter people. I'm a little confused now.

                                          And yes, xegeba, exactly right - feedlots don't require a lot of land. I would think that between them, Mexico, Japan, France, Belgium and Sweden could probably muster up enough land and feed to satisfy their appetites.

                                          Comment

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