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Bill to ban slaughter passes in Illinois, signed by Gov. 5/24 - update p. 27

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  • MayS -

    You seem like a decent person. But I'd really appreciate it if you stopped asserting that animal cruelty laws do not apply to livestock. You know they do, and you know that there are scores of regulations, laws and systems designed to ensure animal health, safety and welfare.

    Whether those laws work all or part of the time is a different subject. But I strongly object to this fallacy continuing to be put out as the truth. It's not.

    Livestock in this US is subjected, at the local, state and federal level, to regulations, laws and ordinances designed to ensure health, safety and welfare standards are met. If your jurisdiction is not enforcing them, or there is ignorance of their existence -by all means address the problem.

    But they do exist.

    Originally posted by MayS View Post
    Please keep in mind that as long as a % of horses in the US are "meat" horses, animal cruelty laws can't touch them. Animal cruelty does not apply to "livestock" (animals raised for meat), so the horses have zero protection against abuse. So even if your horse gets lucky and the very last broker runs him through an auction & a nice person buys him ( instead of broker shipping him), in the meantime he's endured months of suffering. The problem with horse slaughter isn't what's done with a dead horse's carcass.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling

    Comment


    • Originally posted by J Swan View Post
      MayS -

      You seem like a decent person. But I'd really appreciate it if you stopped asserting that animal cruelty laws do not apply to livestock. You know they do, and you know that there are scores of regulations, laws and systems designed to ensure animal health, safety and welfare.

      Whether those laws work all or part of the time is a different subject. But I strongly object to this fallacy continuing to be put out as the truth. It's not.

      Livestock in this US is subjected, at the local, state and federal level, to regulations, laws and ordinances designed to ensure health, safety and welfare standards are met. If your jurisdiction is not enforcing them, or there is ignorance of their existence -by all means address the problem.

      But they do exist.
      JSwan... wouldn't you think that at some point... that the laws of diminishing returns would kick in here? Every industry has a breaking point. Or do the Europeans love their horseflesh so much that they are willing to pay any price for it?

      Comment


      • It depends.

        I hate that answer. Sounds like I'm dodging the question.

        Right now, BSE isn't in the news - now it's "poisoned food". e coli or other cooties from produce. That's what I'm seeing on the news, anyway.

        But I can see horsemeat being in great demand when some cow acts dizzy.... in fact I think one spike in prices was attributed to that.

        Or maybe - the Japanese will become more interested in horsemeat. They seemed to like the taste of Ferdinand.... and I could see a model being developed for live import of horses to be slaughtered there - and the meat indeed being very expensive.

        Perhaps a professional economist could give us a better perspective? Not from a horse slaughter viewpoint necessarily- but perhaps explain different models to us. It might provide all of us with some clarification - and I love learning new things.



        Originally posted by xegeba View Post
        JSwan... wouldn't you think that at some point... that the laws of diminishing returns would kick in here? Every industry has a breaking point. Or do the Eoropeans love their horseflesh so much that they are willing to pay any price for it?
        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
        -Rudyard Kipling

        Comment


        • enforcement

          I'm glad that you have time to read every piece of federal legislation in order to determine whether it's well-conceived and enforceable. I wish I did. However, the point about enforcement is important. As a California resident that was recently defrauded of a horse - a beautiful, healthy, sound, and rideable mare - that that may very well have ended up at slaughter, I am acutely aware of the fact that California's Proposition 6 - the Prevention of Horse Slaughter Act - is not enforced at all. I live minutes from a "killer sale" in Southern California, yet it's illegal to sell, hold, transfer etc. etc. horses for slaughter here. If you read that law, it's incredibly broad. Not enforced. I still believe, however, that it's the mark of a civilized democratic society that it pass laws that the (in this case vast) majority of its people support.

          Comment


          • Economic models

            BTW J Swan, I am a professional economist! Trying hard to put aside my emotional reactions to horse slaughter and come up with some ideas for you...

            Comment


            • Oh COOL - exactly what we needed!

              First - I am terribly sorry about your horse. I know that the California law is not being enforced... though many disagree with me. Even my anti-slaughter friends (yes, I have friends) are disappointed. I hope the horse was returned to you - or at least found a good home.

              xegeba and others have asked questions about pricing, export taxes, and certain possibilities - and I think some of us have taken a stab at answering them. But those answer lack any real knowledge of economics - don't you think? Is there any light you can shed on xegeba's question - or give us a primer on this subject?

              I know things about pricing - wheat futures, - basic stuff - but I'd be most interested in the professional's input.

              Thanks so much.

              Originally posted by Blueshadow View Post
              BTW J Swan, I am a professional economist! Trying hard to put aside my emotional reactions to horse slaughter and come up with some ideas for you...
              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
              -Rudyard Kipling

              Comment


              • thinking...

                Nice to feel so welcome, J Swan, thanks. (Economists aren't always so welcomed!) As it turns out, my research is specialized in international economics, and I'm supposed to be an expert on international prices and exchange rates... I need to read back through all of this, and see whether I have anything relevant to say. What is it that we want to figure out exactly? I'll be more helpful if you give me a specific question...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Blueshadow View Post
                  Nice to feel so welcome, J Swan, thanks. (Economists aren't always so welcomed!) As it turns out, my research is specialized in international economics, and I'm supposed to be an expert on international prices and exchange rates... I need to read back through all of this, and see whether I have anything relevant to say. What is it that we want to figure out exactly? I'll be more helpful if you give me a specific question...
                  Excellent to have you here Blueshadow!!!! Let's assume that the US Plants get shut down for good. Would you not agree that at some point... that a negative trickle down effect is going to occur?

                  Comment


                  • Oh goodie goodie goodie. Folks - line up to get some free info - doesn't matter if you're pro or anti slaughter.

                    I think what one of the issues that we can't seem to figure out is if the only method of slaughtering horses is in Mexico/Canada - will the cost of transport be so high that there is little/no profit to shippers.

                    Or will that price simply be passed on to the international consumer - and if so - at what point would the price be so high that demand lessens.

                    If the plants no longer exist in the US - do you forsee the development of infrastructure in Mexico/Canada to take up processing of these horses - even if the federal ban includes a ban on transport.

                    My brain is fried from muscle relaxants - that's all I can think of right now. But I would greatly appreciate your insight - feel free to make it as complicated or simple as you like.

                    You can't get away from us - now you're part of COTH and you must tell us about your horse!



                    Originally posted by Blueshadow View Post
                    Nice to feel so welcome, J Swan, thanks. (Economists aren't always so welcomed!) As it turns out, my research is specialized in international economics, and I'm supposed to be an expert on international prices and exchange rates... I need to read back through all of this, and see whether I have anything relevant to say. What is it that we want to figure out exactly? I'll be more helpful if you give me a specific question...
                    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                    -Rudyard Kipling

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by J Swan View Post
                      But I'd really appreciate it if you stopped asserting that animal cruelty laws do not apply to livestock. You know they do, and you know that there are scores of regulations, laws and systems designed to ensure animal health, safety and welfare.
                      Please show me the cruelty/neglect/abuse laws that protect regular livestock such as chickens or cows. I double-dog dare you.

                      How can the widespread practice of factory farming exist, if there are animal cruelty/neglect laws protecting the animals?

                      The only regulations that I am aware of are those which protect the price and safety of the MEAT. The spirit and intent of those laws are to keep our food supply safe.

                      Anyway, back to the horses. The problem is that right now the low-end horses are in lumped with the raised-for-meat animals that are grown like 'crops' and 'harvested' like corn.

                      If they're suffering, the mindset is that theyre going to slaughter so who cares; the reality is "going to slaughter" could take weeks to months and the horse gets no care in the meantime.

                      If the person complaining pushes the issue, the second problem is local law enforcement usually refers "meat animal" issues to the USDA. But the USDA protects meat quality, not quality of life for the animals. If you disagree with this assertion, I challenge you to tell me who does enforce animal cruelty laws for 'meat' animals?

                      You're still not convinced? Please come with me when I go up to New Holland (big 'livestock' horse sale) in a few weeks. You will commonly see things there that, if an individual did to their own horses, would get them hauled up in front of a judge.

                      What gets me isn't that people are starving, beating, and refusing emergency vet care for their horses. It's that there's no shame in it. They openly display the products of their abuse in a big public sale barn for all to see: fresh open collar sores, slipper hooves, infected wounds, serious lameness, uncontrolled infectious diseases, neglect so bad the horse is a rack of bones.. you get the idea.

                      Livestock in this US is subjected, at the local, state and federal level, to regulations, laws and ordinances designed to ensure health, safety and welfare standards are met. If your jurisdiction is not enforcing them, or there is ignorance of their existence -by all means address the problem.
                      Health standards = food safety, not animal well being or health

                      Safety standards = FOOD safety not animal safety, eg food poisoning or diseases transmittable to humans

                      Wlfare standards = guidelines to tell farmers the absolute minimum of food, water, and space a given animal needs to keep it alive; welfare does not address the issue of suffering, cruel treatment, abuse, neglect... except within the scope of "does this keep the animal alive?" For example: using a cattleprod on a foundered horse to get him off the meat truck is a cruelty/abuse issue not a welfare issue.

                      And for any laws to work, someone has to act as the police. Trouble that when is the horse vanishes to a broker's lot or is shipped to slaughter, the public cannot see what condition he is in, so we can't call authorities. The USDA only inspects for food safety and only at key checkpoints (eg entry into slaughterhouse). The USDA is so underfunded they're admitting they can't keep on top of meat safety, much less care about horse suffering. It's not inspected locally because my local animal control only comes out if there is a complaint. At a state level, there are licenses for horse traders/brokers, but I have seen firsthand how their lax inspections and only once-a-year vists allow lame horses to be used in lessons and injured ones denied vet care.

                      If you disagree and you feel there are laws out there which protect livestock, please cite them.

                      Please also cite some convictions proving the laws are being policed & prosecuted.
                      Veterinarians for Equine Welfare

                      Comment


                      • Ahem - MayS - just look at your state code. Go state by state.

                        You asserted that no laws exist. Each state has such laws.

                        Perhaps I am looking at it this through the eyes of a former legal professional - and not an activist.

                        But the laws do exist. For livestock. And not because of "meat quality". Whether or not my pig enters the national food chain has no bearing on my personal responsibility for his welfare, health and safety. I can eat him, but I cannot beat him. I can herd him, but I cannot hurt him. I can sell him, but I cannot abandon him.

                        So it is will all species of livestock.

                        If you are referring to the regulations designed to ensure food safety - those regulations are for food safety. (whether our food is safe is a whole different matter). That does not mean that other regulations regarding the ANIMAL's health safety and welfare do not exist.

                        Since everything I write is immediately discounted - I suggest you look it up for yourself.

                        I've been to New Holland. One of my horses came through there. I can understand how a person could think that no laws exist. But they do.
                        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                        -Rudyard Kipling

                        Comment


                        • OMG You cant be that Thick!

                          Originally posted by onthebit12000 View Post
                          Well, probably because not very many posts on this topic have previously expressed concern for the horses who actually had already traveled out of the country to be slaughtered in MX.

                          Most of the posts here are discussing how more horses will go to MX now that the US plants are closed.

                          "More" as compared to last year perhaps, but what about the tens of thousands that were ALREADY going there while the 3 US plants were fully operational? What about the 23+K in 2005 or the nearly 18K from 2004?

                          I find it interesting that you chose to comment on the words contained in my post rather than the FACT'S contained in my post. What about the tens of thousands of horses that were sent to slaughter in MX long before the US plants closed?
                          That has been one of our main questions and concerns on everyone of these topics. Thats all everyone said, What about the ones that will be exported. bla bla bla You all told us oh no that will not happen, The borders would be closed it would be illegal, And all the excess will be absorbed into the system. Your comments just make it clear that most of you never even read what we have written. Just put us all on ignore.

                          Comment


                          • preliminary, overly simplistic answers....

                            Glad to be here, thanks.

                            Okay, on the cost of transportation vs. passing on costs to consumer prices:
                            First, I'm only familiar with the numbers for export into Mexico, not Canada. Based on what we already see in the data, (slight drop in exports for slaughter for the past two years, but an increase this year relative to last year, especially following the closure of the Texas plants with thousands of horses being exported from New Mexico and Texas in just the past couple of months), I'd say that increased fuel costs have had a small impact over the past two years, but it certainly looks as though, from the southern states, the shipment continues to be profitable. Juarez, the nearest Mexico plant, is JUST across the border. Not a long haul, like Edmonton. In Juarez, I've read, they estimate that a lot of the horsemeat is actually sold and consumed VERY locally - maybe 90% - and may be consumed by people that don't know they are consuming it. I don't know how credible this information is. It's argued that the meat is flavored with beef, and served to local workers in lunch rooms. Again, I don't know how credible this is, but it suggests that, in Mexico, horsemeat is NOT a luxury good and is in fact sold cheaply in bulk.

                            Okay, luxury goods are highly "price elastic"; anything that raises the price has a relatively large effect on demand - they are not necessities, and people will substitute relatively willingly into other consumption (eg. good steak in Japan, France and Sweden). Non-luxury goods - basic food items - not so much, so that price increases can be passed onto the consumer more easily (Mexican workers in lunch rooms in Juarez, for example).

                            What Federal legislation is supposed to do, as I think most people here understand, is actually close our borders with Mexico and Canada in horse for slaughter trade. I'm just waiting to hear that it's somehow at odds with some ag. condition of NAFTA! I don't doubt that it will reduce exports substantially, and I also don't doubt that it won't be fully enforced (no law is or can be, it's just too costly). What it WILL do is raise the "expected" costs of shipping horses for slaughter; ie. like any other illegal activity, doing so would now involve the possibility of heavy penalties, and would be a risk of incurring these for anyone involved in shipping horses. Simple economic model of "crime" - what's the relative size of the expected gain (economic gain from sale of horses for slaughter) vs. expected cost (economic loss from being caught) along with an assessment of the probability of being caught. The reason that horses are still sold for slaughter in california is because the law is poorly enforced - the probability that a trader or killer buyer assigns to getting caught and paying the penalty is very, very low. So it happens anyway. Enforcement of a new federal law is key to determining its impact, and it's costly (but, for those of you concerned with job creation issues, it does create employment!). And who knows how well enforced it will be. I don't know how NAFTA will play into this. I don't know how large the political costs of not enforcing will be. Very hard to assess.

                            Xegeba, on the negative trickle down effects you refer to - obviously, not out of the question, although small by all estimates. Most relevant to this argument, I think is that the size of the horse slaughter industry in this country has shrunk by a factor of roughly 3 in the past decade, and I'm not sure that we see significant economic impacts of that. Nor do we see significant impacts, I believe, for rates of horse abuse etc. There are studies on this, by the way - the incidence of horse abuse when slaughter facilities are shut down. I'll try to find the link.

                            One last thing I just remembered, about the price of horsemeat in different countries (there was a bunch of discussion about this earlier) - if there's one thing I do know (not much), it's that the law of one price doesn't hold except in organized/centralized commodity markets, and we don't have those for horsemeat. In other words, trying to compare the price of something
                            in France, Japan, Mexico - adjusting for the exchange rate - nonsense. The price of horsemeat in Japan, France, Mexico, Sweden will depend on local consumer preferences, local taxes etc. etc. As I said earlier, the likelihood is that the price of horsemeat in Juarez is locally low - probably not in Tokyo! And that is because this product CAN be "priced to market" - there are few suppliers, and it's too costly for the ultimate consumer to arbitrage away the price differentials to profit from, say, buying horsemeat in Juarez and selling it in Tokyo. There's no mechanism for international prices to be equalized. Nonetheless, it is profitable to produce or sell it in any country that does so - otherwise it wouldn't be done.

                            Comment


                            • tariffs

                              BTW, one way to enforce Federal Regulation pretty costlessly would be for all three NAFTA partners to agree to slap a 100 percent tariff on imports of horses for slaughter. Some hope!

                              Comment


                              • Wow - this is really something - thanks so very much. One poster had asked about why we send any species for slaughter in another country (mexico/canad) and I replied that we were getting into international law and policy issues there.

                                That would include NAFTA - most certainly.

                                Please - continue if you don't think you'll get carpal tunnel. I've found this a refreshing change. (whether you are pro or anti is irrelevant - I'm happy for intelligent discourse - I'm kind of a hermit)

                                I've got some rather obscure info lying about in this dungeon - purely administrative/regulatory stuff that I find interesting - but is guaranteed to be a snoozer on a BB. I'll look for something you might find of use.

                                Originally posted by Blueshadow View Post
                                BTW, one way to enforce Federal Regulation pretty costlessly would be for all three NAFTA partners to agree to slap a 100 percent tariff on imports of horses for slaughter. Some hope!
                                Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                -Rudyard Kipling

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by MayS View Post
                                  Please show me the cruelty/neglect/abuse laws that protect regular livestock such as chickens or cows.
                                  Here's Virginia's:
                                  There are harsher penalties for certain actions against dogs and cats than those against other animals, but all animals (except fish apparently are included in the general Cruelty to Animals section.)

                                  First, section 3.1-796.66 of the code defines "animal" as "any nonhuman vertebrate species except fish. For the purposes of § 3.1-796.98, animal means any species susceptible to rabies. For the purposes of § 3.1-796.122, animal means any nonhuman vertebrate species including fish except those fish captured and killed or disposed of in a reasonable and customary manner."
                                  http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...cod+3.1-796.66


                                  Section 3.1-796.122. Cruelty to animals; penalty.
                                  http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...od+3.1-796.122
                                  A. Any person who (i) overrides, overdrives, overloads, tortures, ill-treats, abandons, willfully inflicts inhumane injury or pain not connected with bona fide scientific or medical experimentation, or cruelly or unnecessarily beats, maims, mutilates, or kills any animal, whether belonging to himself or another; (ii) deprives any animal of necessary food, drink, shelter or emergency veterinary treatment; (iii) sores any equine for any purpose or administers drugs or medications to alter or mask such soring for the purpose of sale, show, or exhibition of any kind, unless such administration of drugs or medications is within the context of a veterinary client-patient relationship and solely for therapeutic purposes; (iv) willfully sets on foot, instigates, engages in, or in any way furthers any act of cruelty to any animal; (v) carries or causes to be carried in or upon any vehicle, vessel or otherwise any animal in a cruel, brutal, or inhumane manner, so as to produce torture or unnecessary suffering; or (vi) causes any of the above things, or being the owner of such animal permits such acts to be done by another, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

                                  B. Any person who (i) tortures, willfully inflicts inhumane injury or pain not connected with bona fide scientific or medical experimentation, or cruelly and unnecessarily beats, maims, mutilates or kills any animal whether belonging to himself or another; (ii) sores any equine for any purpose or administers drugs or medications to alter or mask such soring for the purpose of sale, show, or exhibit of any kind, unless such administration of drugs or medications is under the supervision of a licensed veterinarian and solely for therapeutic purposes; (iii) instigates, engages in, or in any way furthers any act of cruelty to any animal set forth in clause (i); or (iv) causes any of the actions described in clauses (i) through (iii), or being the owner of such animal permits such acts to be done by another; and has been within five years convicted of a violation of this subsection or subsection A, shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony if the current violation or any previous violation of this subsection or subsection A resulted in the death of an animal or the euthanasia of an animal based on the recommendation of a licensed veterinarian upon determination that such euthanasia was necessary due to the condition of the animal, and such condition was a direct result of a violation of this subsection or subsection A.

                                  C. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the dehorning of cattle.

                                  D. For the purposes of this section and §§ 3.1-796.111, 3.1-796.113, 3.1-796.114, 3.1-796.115, and 3.1-796.125, the word animal shall be construed to include birds and fowl.

                                  E. This section shall not prohibit authorized wildlife management activities or hunting, fishing or trapping as regulated under other titles of the Code of Virginia, including, but not limited to Title 29.1, or to farming activities as provided under this title or regulations promulgated thereto.

                                  F. In addition to the penalties provided in subsection A, the court may, in its discretion, require any person convicted of a violation of subsection A to attend an anger management or other appropriate treatment program or obtain psychiatric or psychological counseling. The court may impose the costs of such a program or counseling upon the person convicted.

                                  G. It is unlawful for any person to kill a domestic dog or cat for the purpose of obtaining the hide, fur or pelt of the dog or cat. A violation of this subsection shall constitute a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second or subsequent violation of this subsection shall constitute a Class 6 felony.

                                  H. Any person who (i) tortures, willfully inflicts inhumane injury or pain not connected with bona fide scientific or medical experimentation or cruelly and unnecessarily beats, maims or mutilates any dog or cat that is a companion animal whether belonging to him or another and (ii) as a direct result causes the death of such dog or cat that is a companion animal, or the euthanasia of such animal on the recommendation of a licensed veterinarian upon determination that such euthanasia was necessary due to the condition of the animal, shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony. If a dog or cat is attacked on its owner's property by a dog so as to cause injury or death, the owner of the injured dog or cat may use all reasonable and necessary force against the dog at the time of the attack to protect his dog or cat. Such owner may be presumed to have taken necessary and appropriate action to defend his dog or cat and shall therefore be presumed not to have violated this subsection. The provisions of this subsection shall not overrule § 3.1-796.93:1 or § 3.1-796.116.

                                  I. Any person convicted of violating this section may be prohibited by the court from possession or ownership of companion animals.

                                  (1984, c. 492, § 29-213.91; 1987, c. 488; 1992, c. 177; 1998, c. 817; 1999, cc. 209, 620, 645; 2002, cc. 351, 500, 583, 613; 2003, cc. 787, 788; 2004, c. 217.)
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                                  • Thanks J Swan. I hope it wasn't all completely obvious. I'm never sure how to pitch things. Way too long in the ivory tower!

                                    There are some serious non-economic issues here.

                                    So I recently had a conversation about this issue of slaughtering horses and shipping horses for slaughter with a judge. I think the discussion started with the judge saying something like, well we slaughter and eat cattle here in the US and probably that wouldn't make Hindus happy (I'm paraphrasing, clumsily). And I guess my answer to that is that we don't take the cattle bred, raised and owned by Hindus, and slaughter them here for our consumption. Hindus, to my knowledge, don't export their cattle to us for slaughter. Nor do they allow US slaughter companies to operate on their soil and export the meat of their cattle to the US for consumption and profit. We raise and slaughter our own cattle right here, for our own consumption.

                                    So I guess then the question is whether you believe that the feelings of 70-80 percent (estimated from surveys) of US citizens that oppose horse slaughter are worthy of the same respect that a religious belief does. Should the "feelings"/opinions of those people prevent us from a) allowing foreign companies to slaughter horses right here in the US b) allowing the export of our horses for foreign slaughter and consumption.

                                    Here's my feeling.

                                    If the majority of Japanese, Mexican, Swedish, French, and Belgian people want to eat horsemeat, or condone their fellow citizens eating horsemeat, I'm not going to challenge their culture - but I would ask that they breed, raise and slaughter their own horses FOR THAT PURPOSE, on their own soil. Alternatively, they could establish a trade agreement among themselves I guess - French horses raised for slaughter, or more likely French horsemeat, could be shipped to Sweden and vice versa (just as we import beef from Argentina, lamb from New Zealand etc.).

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                                    • Do you feel the same way about people in other countries that feel we should produce our own oil rather then import it from theirs?
                                      Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

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                                      • There's a supply issue here - we don't have the capacity to produce enough oil to fulfill our demand. It's a natural resource that is not reproducible, in limited supply. You think those countries simply can't produce enough horses of their own?

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                                        • Yes I do many of them just don't have the room to raise a large number of horses and other livestock especially cattle thats why they import them. Not only room for livestock but also the number of acres for feed stuffs. Much cheaper to import them plus it leaves the room for their people.
                                          Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

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