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Could you contain yourself if you ran into Tommy Burns-Horse Killer?

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  • I honestly and truly dont believe that anyone changes that shows an inclination towards this sort of behaviour ... They would sure be the exception rather than the rule.

    I mentioned a few pages back about a well known Canadian Team rider whose horse got tangled up in the harrow right on the inside of the arena door, in the middle of the night, when his stall door was *accidentally* left open. And how this horse was insured for a great deal of money and it was no secret that this rider hated this horse.

    That same rider (when I was riding the jumpers way back in the 70's) was also caught several times for poling out back behind their trailer (usually with rails with carpet tacks nailed to them), with tacks on the inside of their bell boots (the groom would STEP on the horses coronet band just before they went into the ring to drive the tacks into the pastern area to "remind" them to pick up their feet) and the best one yet - scraping their legs down, along the front of the cannon bone with one of those steel fireplace brushes, and then throwing turpentine on it to make sure they remembered to pick up their feet over the jumps. That one only worked on the ones with no stockings as questions might be asked if blood was seen running down both forelegs.

    Got caught with electronic devices (bell boots, shin boots and whips) that zapped the horse on command.

    Ive been out of that part of the horse industry for years, but it wouldnt surprise me one iota to know that similar behaviour was continuing to this day. A pattern has already been established by past actions over a number of years.

    "Spot"

    Comment


    • free, what is your PROBLEM? Nobody is saying 'born-again hero', don't put words in my mouth. Have you ever worn a wire to help catch a criminal? It must be nerve-wracking. What I said was the man was wrong, the man was caught, the man accepted the punishment he got and is working within it. There's a crime, there's a punishment. Once the punishment is completed, it's over. Anything else is cruel and vindictive and that's not the purpose of our legal system. It's to stop the bad behavior and punish it. Period. Then it's over. Guess what, cruelty isn't allowed by us to them, even if they were cruel in their crimes. What part of this don't YOU understand?

      Comment


      • Okay one more time, Alagirl, I just don't get if you are still trying to say that he denied having boots on his horse at Aachen.

        Comment


        • Anne FS, although I agree that Paul is in a different category from Barney (whinewhinewhine, never admitting to any wrongdoing, oh woe is me), I still do not feel he should be accepted lovingly into the horse world arms. I don't hate him, (even if my blood pressure DOES rise a bit when discussing any of these losers). I just don't feel he has a place with horses. I don't feel a known pedophile has a place with children. I don't believe a known rapist should be allowed near a woman again, (if so - his youknowwhats should NOT be intact). I do not wish Paul harm, I just would prefer he live his life ELSEWHERE - not around horses. I don't feel he should be making a living off the very animal he had murdered for gain or any other reason. I honestly cannot understand that people welcome him back with open arms.

          "I can justify anything!"
          \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

          Comment


          • Barney, Paul, George, Tommy, et al: CONVICTED of killing horses or being accessories.

            McLain - POSSIBLY having used some "extraordinary" methods to win. Never proven.

            HUGE difference and in no way comparable. Trust me, there isn't a successful GP rider out there, in any country, who hasn't "schooled" their horses in what you all would consider a "cruel" manner, if you consider poling, tack rails, offsets, etc. cruel. And that goes for every rider I've heard mentioned as someone's hero.

            So, let's take McLain back out of the discussion and get back to the real crimes.

            Laurie
            Laurie

            Comment


            • OK, several pages later, back to my original question: *Was* the Equus Medal at WEF "to be judged according to USAE rules" or was it not?? My point being, even if it was on an off-day and was not a recognized event, might there still be a valid means to protest PV's appearance on the trainer list??

              ______________
              "It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."
              "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

              Comment


              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JFJ:
                Okay one more time, Alagirl, I just don't get if you are still trying to say that he denied having boots on his horse at Aachen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Previous page I posted a link to *the incident*

                Apparently the man was thought to have something amiss in Gotheborg, but wasn't repramended.
                A few weeks later at Aachen he was pulled out of mid competition and send home.
                According to what I know they found the plastic whatnots in the boots, he denied having had any on the horse and was prooven wrong via video tape....that was '99.
                I had no idea, the NGB send the guy over to Europe again....
                SOOOOOOOOOOOO...
                There is something seriously wrong with that picture, when the man in his short international carrier gets picked up three times, not to mention an US incident where one of his mounts tested positive for an illegal substance...

                In the case of McLaine Ward, it's a tragic one, he has such a lovely style and so much tallent, paired with a serious case of the stupids.
                There, I said it.
                He either doesn't realize that he is being watched, or his staff is running amog.
                So, he is either stupid for trying, yet again or stupid for not controling access to his horses.
                And in regard to Glimmerglass' comment: The notion that anybody has to be dq'ed to give a nation an edge is hillariously ridiculous and not just a little insulting - I choose to laugh.
                I am tired of the *poor little American* attitude, they most certainly don't need it, and if you can't hang with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

                Comment


                • Alagirl, I read the article you put the link to because I was surprised to think it was reported that he denied having boots on his horse at Aachen. Did you read the article? It doesn't say anything like that. Is there another source for your information??? Again I will tell you I was there in Aachen. Gothenburg was the World Cup Finals, which is in the spring (I was not there), Mclain's horses came home before going to Aachen, which is in June or July. The incident at Aachen happened on the first day if I remember correctly. And if you want to talk about his horse being positive for an illegal substance (actually it was a client's horse for the A/O's but he was listed at trainer), lets talk about EVERYONE that had that problem! There are some that even got off for the same offence!! Anyway, I'm not even on the circuit anymore, it just bugs me when people who weren't there, don't know McLain or his staff, and don't know the facts, go on about how stupid they are. Those horses are some of the best cared for horses I have ever seen. They look great, go great and I KNOW for a FACT the grooms love them and give them tons of carrots and sweets!!!

                  Comment


                  • Forgive or not forgive isn't really the question so much as the issue the first poster brought up and Duffy discussed.

                    You might have a child molester who serves their time. Now, should they be hired to run a preschool when they come out? Whether I had found it in my heart to forgive or not, I think the answer is no. BC we are talking about their inherent untrustworthiness when faced with the ability to abuse a silent victim.

                    Serving the time doesn't make them trustworthy when faced with that situation. If you have someone who serves their time for beating nursing home patients, but only those who can't testify due to infirmities, once they are out, do you hire them to take care of that same class of voiceless, defenseless populace?

                    Sure, if YOU want to extend a hand of forgiveness with respect to talking at a dinner party - that is your business. But to place these people again in a position where their untrustworthiness doesn't result in a filched DVD, but instead in suffering or destruction of a living creature - that's different to me.

                    BTW - why wouldn't M.Ward allow tack inspections in Sweden? So is the conspiracy theory that the Swedes were in on the conspiracy too. Does M Ward still do horse business with his father? I'm not making a judgement at all - just these would be some of the factors that I would consider. If someone chooses to go into the horse business, knowingly and post conviction, with someone like BWard or TBurns, that is something I would very much consider in whether I would "tar them with the same brush". If someone opens a Starbucks franchise with one of them - to me that is not the same thing. Going into the horse business, family member or not, with them after such a thing is not something of which I would approve. Like letting your convicted pedophile brother babysit for you young child. If you care about the child, you don't - even if you still love your brother.

                    Comment


                    • JFJ check your privat topic!

                      Comment


                      • mbp, Barney is his FATHER for Pete's sake. If anyone would be forgiving, shouldn't it be the children? Put yourself in McLain's place, using your own father as Barney and tell me that you would not, under any circumstances, do business with your father.

                        Until this country becomes an anarchy or dictatorship, the fact is that, like it or not, when a criminal has paid his debt to society, done his time and is "off paper", he is free to do as he likes, within the confines of any ongoing restrictions (registering if a sex offender, banned from show grounds for PV and BW). None of their sentences banned their ownership of horses, nor their ability to conduct business within the horse world.

                        So, we all make our own choices to deal with them or not. But chastising those that do is a reflection on what you really think of the "free country" idea.

                        Laurie
                        Laurie

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
                          when a criminal has paid his debt to society, done his time and is "off paper", he is free to do as he likes, within the confines of any ongoing restrictions
                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          That's another reason why people are so disgusted with BW. He didn't pay his debt; he did the prison time but he repeatedly violated the show grounds provision and when caught brought lawsuits about that. He tried everything he could to AVOID paying his debt to society.

                          I agree with you on once they've done that they are free to do whatever and others are free to associate with them or not. However, BW's perpetual machinations to avoid paying that debt are very revealing about him and have caused him to be written off by a lot more people than PV.

                          Comment


                          • Sorry to be so blunt people, but wake up! Right or wrong, like it or not, Paul is running a very successful business immediately off the show grounds. Numerous finals winners just in the last several years have been trained by him, he is just not the trainer of record.
                            I'm not even at the shows anymore and I am fully aware of this.
                            Doing the ethical thing is not the priority of many of the riders showing at that level, winning is. Many will do whatever it takes, and deal with whoever it takes, to achieve that goal. Those are the facts.

                            Comment


                            • I wouldn't know what Tommy Burns looked like ..... but I can say that while I was in Ocala last week one of our younger adult clients purchased some hydrophonic grass as a treat for her horses .... when the fellow came on his golf cart to drop if off he started chatting to my partner and I as he saw we were from Ontario (Canada) ...... as soon as he left my partner and my initial reaction was 'oh my god' ..... the fellow told us that his boss was Jerry Farmer ... a name we in the Toronto area were quite familiar with as he used to do a lot of sales etc. and he was the 'local' name to many of us when this whole thing came to light. We won't be buying any more grass strips.

                              Comment


                              • I know I'm stirring up a hornets nest but isn't PV up for reinstatement in 2004? What will happen when he gets back in(as his camp is saying will happen)

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nmb:
                                  I know I'm stirring up a hornets nest but isn't PV up for reinstatement in 2004? What will happen when he gets back in(as his camp is saying will happen)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  See my above post. Not much will change, he will just be at the gate clapping instead of having someone else there for him.
                                  The only difference now is he is not at the gate! Believe me, he is watching lots of videos and training lots of finals winners from just off the show grounds.

                                  Comment


                                  • Kpi films/cort tv is going to do a documentary on this whole thing to be aired on public tv soon. I am not too sure just when, I will post the time as soon as I can find out.

                                    Comment


                                    • Lauriep - in those same circumstances, I would do business with my father again, but not horse business. As per my example, if I had a pedophile brother who served his time, I would have him to dinner, love him still, but never ever ever let him babysit my kids alone and would warn off others from doing the same. If my child was convicted of abusing comatose nursing home patients, I wouldn't put my child in charge of my comatose mother after he served his time.

                                      I would not choose to put those who have a propensity for taking advantage of silent victims in a position to do it again. That free country thing works more than one way - freedom to have an opinion about how a situation should be handled. I would have a negative opinion of someone who makes the choice to go ahead and do horse business with convicted horse killers/insurance swindlers.

                                      Why are you so adamant that we SHOULD go ahead and throw the abuse victims back into the control of their ex-abusers? I'm not saying you aren't free to have that opinion, just that I don't understand it - somehow it seems to be related to the idea that if someone "serves their time" they become risk free?

                                      I don't have any problem with any of those guys earning a living - but I do have a problem with them earning a living in the horse business. IMO, it's not right.

                                      Comment


                                      • I'm not adamant one way or the other. I'm adamant about people having the choice to associate with whomever they choose without being held up to public scrutiny, for sons of fathers to not be automatically assumed to be guilty because of their parentage, and for that same son, who is MUCH closer to the situation than any of us, to have his father in his life to whatever level HE feels comfortable and not be ridiculed here.

                                        We all make our personal choices at the levels we can live with. Personally, I never say NEVER, and I don't judge others and don't want to be judged by them.

                                        Also, I never said that I considered anyone to be risk free after serving time. Not at all. I said that UNDER THE LAW, AND THE CONDITIONS OF THEIR SENTENCES, these two are doing what they are allowed to do (yes, BW has whined and complained, etc., but that is BW). So, perhaps all the righteous indignation that is being displayed here should be redirected at the institutions that handed down these "light" punishments.

                                        And taking lessons from them and leaving an animal in their care are two entirely different things, and probably a distinction that many of their clients feel comfortable in making.

                                        Laurie

                                        [This message was edited by lauriep on Mar. 03, 2003 at 04:49 PM.]
                                        Laurie

                                        Comment


                                        • Somehow, I agree with both of you!

                                          I can still shake my head in confusion and wonderment at what other people will accept, but I accept that it is up to them what they will accept.

                                          "I can justify anything!"
                                          \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

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