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Could you contain yourself if you ran into Tommy Burns-Horse Killer?

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  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yournamehere:
    Careful now Grandpa Silas has the criminal record. Please be considerate of he with the same name - a very kind and gentle man. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    As SoEasy said, that family tree is obviously complex . I think anyone sentenced, Tommy Byrnes or Burns could fill in that blank of "once a no name". The ball is in our court, if someone sees something wrong, what will you do?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hexel:
    Charisma was electrocuted.
    Streetwise had his leg fractured with a crowbar. He had a clause in his insurance policy not covering him for colic. He was the horse killing that cracked the case wide open.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Got those two confused. Electrocution vs crow bar, either is horrible. I just really get upset when people rationalize something really wrong to do to an animal by saying at least it is fat and not starving. I have heard that one. It's a very slippery slope and probably what lead to those horses deaths.

    [This message was edited by CRT on Feb. 27, 2003 at 10:36 PM.]

    Comment


    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
      I really find if very offensive that anyone would mention McLain in the context of this thread. The paying for sins of the father nonsense really needs to cease. As for the Aachen situation I still firmly believe that he was framed because he was a major threat to the Germans. Just my two cents<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



      That's BS my Dear!
      BTW, he was caught in Gotheborg before , too, they just couldn't proove it so maybe they had him on their radar (In any case, he won't be in Aachen for the WEG...the only one I've ever heard getting himself banned, and I am by no means under the impression, that there are many choir boys in the sport)
      The Germans have lost before, at home and on the road, that happens when the competition is that tight. I was watching it on TV and was bitter disapointed: such a waste of exellent tallent....

      But I do agree, plastic do-dads in the boots is a far cry from electrocuting and crowbars and ping-pong balls up the nose. (BTW there is a Law & Order episode closely resebling the overall storyline with Ms Brach, as well as a *City Confidential*)

      Comment


      • Just an FYI <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> admittedly from a biased source...Hot Blood <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        I had some very interesting correspondance with ken Englade, the author of HOT BLOOD, and he is a SERIOUS journalist. I don't think I would call him biased at all. What he found in the horse world shocked and revolted him, and he only wrote about the "tip of the iceberg"! There were MANY MORE HORSES that were killed by Tommy Burns on order from BW and MANY OTHER PROS who DID NOT GET CAUGHT because the statute of limitations had passed by the time the evidence had been collected.

        THAT is frightening!!



        It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
        co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
          I really find if very offensive that anyone would mention McLain in the context of this thread. The paying for sins of the father nonsense really needs to cease. As for the Aachen situation I still firmly believe that he was framed because he was a major threat to the Germans. Just my two cents<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Thank you, Glimmerglass. I agree completely.

          Comment


          • Let me start by saying I didn't bring McLain's name into the discussion someone else did back around page 3 or 4.

            AND if you are going to discuss Tommy Burns then inevitably the name WARD is going to come up. It then follows that McLain's name comes up in connection with the scandal that hit him.

            Granted plastic pieces in boots pales in comparison to arranging a horse's death for money but he still has had his share of doubt about his honesty in the sport. Whether you think he was framed or not. The fact remains they were both tried and found guilty in the appropriate venues (albeit Barney should have gotten death too). While I would never trust anyone of them with my horse or my life everyone has to make their own decisions about those involved.

            My motto about these kinds of people: GOD FORGIVES, I DON'T.

            "I drank what?" Socrates
            \"The credit belongs to those people who are actually in the arena...who know the great enthusiasms, the great devotions to a worthy cause; who at best, know the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, fail while daring greatly, so that their

            Comment


            • I agree completely with Gayle. The people invloved in this whole scandal put money over their horses lives, and that's just reprehensible. Also, how in the world could McLain have been "framed" as an earlier poster theorized? The "framers" would have had to get into his equipment, plant the sharp pieces of plastic, then McLain or his groom would have had to put the boots on the horse without noticing? How would the framers have known which pair of boots were to be used in the competition? (surely he had more than one pair with him!). I could go on and on, but I'm sure you see my point.

              Comment


              • Well MareOne, I was in Aachen grooming for another American at the time, and the plastic pieces were not found IN the boots but ON the ground. And the Vet even said there were no marks on the horses legs (and you would think there would be) AND further more I was close friends with McLain's groom and he told me he didn't do it and that is good enough for me. (And McLain has nothing to do with putting boots or tack on)

                Comment


                • So if they were found on the ground, then how did they get traced back to McLain? And why did McLain take responsibility for it all? Don't get me wrong-- I think he is an awesome rider and I wish I had one-tenth of his talent. Maybe you could give the rest of us some more insight so we don't think he has the deviant ways of his father.

                  Comment


                  • Thanks MareOne. At least someone likes me!

                    "I drank what?" Socrates
                    \"The credit belongs to those people who are actually in the arena...who know the great enthusiasms, the great devotions to a worthy cause; who at best, know the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, fail while daring greatly, so that their

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
                      Just an FYI <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> admittedly from a biased source...Hot Blood <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      I had some very interesting correspondance with ken Englade, the author of HOT BLOOD, and he is a SERIOUS journalist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      Okay...maybe "biased" was the wrong word. One-sided? I was just trying to say that I realize that reading that book only gave me one side of the story. I only read about certain parts of the trial, because that is all he presented.

                      Anyone telling a story adds their own "tint" to it, through word choice, tone, facts that are related, even serious journalists. That was what I was trying to acknowledge.
                      Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                      Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                      Comment


                      • Remember this was his first show back in Europe after the incident at the World Cup (I wasn't there for that one so I don't know the details) but it seemed like the officals (and some of the riders) wanted to "get" him. Only one person "saw" the plasic pieces "fall" from the boots. So it was really who you beleive. And there was a lot of stuff going on there, grooms for European riders told us that their riders had a meeting and they were all against McLain. I recall a particular well know English rider yelling "Go Home!" to my friend. You can beleive what you want but I was there.

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MareOne:
                          So if they were found on the ground, then how did they get traced back to McLain? And why did McLain take responsibility .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          Well, he denied, as far as I know.
                          Said the horse didn't had any boots on - which was disprooven by video tape....

                          Comment


                          • Alagirl that was the World Cup not Aachen. It's amazing how the story grows and changes. When we were in Aachen there were even rumors that McLain's groom's passport was taken and he was being held for animal cruelty... TOTAL LIE!!! I was in touch with him after they left the show grounds and even after they got home to the States, but the stories just kept going...

                            Comment


                            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JFJ:
                              Alagirl that was the World Cup not Aachen. It's amazing how the story grows and changes. When we were in Aachen there were even rumors that McLain's groom's passport was taken and he was being held for animal cruelty... TOTAL LIE!!! I was in touch with him after they left the show grounds and even after they got home to the States, but the stories just kept going...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Nope Dahling, I am talking about the CHIO in Aachen, a few weeks after whatever in Goteborg...
                              Gave me a big HUH???? moment of confusion (didn't have that back then as often as I do now ) the rider announced via text on the TV screen was Ward, but even I knew the rider appearing in the ring wasn't him...
                              Yupp, got pulled right then and there and later handed a lifetime bann from the Aache showgrounds...
                              Naturaly I was interested in the outcome.
                              In Goteborg he was suspected, but nothing could be prooven, and in Aachen - well, as I said they may have had a close eye on him - they caught him in a discrepansy and whammo, came down on him like a ton of bricks.

                              Comment


                              • HUH?!?!? He never denied having boots on at Aachen.

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JFJ:
                                  HUH?!?!? He never denied having boots on at Aachen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  I found this on a quick search:
                                  http://www.chioaachen.de/news/home.htm

                                  plus an article from the dec 99 COTH issue...

                                  OOOPs wrong link...
                                  Here's the right one:
                                  http://horsesdaily.com/news/showjump.../wardaach.html

                                  [This message was edited by Alagirl on Feb. 26, 2003 at 10:09 PM.]

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    To those of you who try feeble attempts to make this Paul V into some kind of born-again hero....ask yourself this...did he approach the authorities before he was caught? No, he was between a rock and a hard spot and when he was backed into a corner, chose to wear the wire to reduce his punishment. And if he was so brave to do it and it was dangerous , why hasn't someone retaliated by now? He seems to be well and doing a thriving public business. He didn't need to enter a witness protection program. It was completely self-serving. And the public service was a condition that was forced upon him, not a voluntary condition. What part of this don't you understand?

                                    Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

                                    Comment


                                    • I guess the part I don't understand is the raw hatred. Yes, these people did horrible, horrible things, and I make no excuses for that. But what grants any of us the right to say that they deserve to die?

                                      Personally, I prefer healing over hatred, which tends to fester and hurts the ones who hate more than anyone else. And for whoever posted the "God forgives, I don't", what makes you believe that God would forgive you for your sins if you can't find it in yourself to forgive others? (I'm assuming you meant that literally, and do believe in a god of some type).

                                      Comment


                                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alagirl:
                                        That's BS my Dear! BTW, he was caught in Gotheborg before, too, they just couldn't prove it so maybe they had him on their radar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        Alagirl avoid the condescending and patronizing remarks towards me. I know the details well and as I cited that is my opinion. Yes, there was a prior infraction - CSI Gothenberg, Sweden (4/99) where McLain was found guilty of obstructing the control of the hind boots.

                                        I didn't say he was perfect, but rather that in the context of this thread his name should not be associated.

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And for whoever posted the "God forgives, I don't", what makes you believe that God would forgive you for your sins if you can't find it in yourself to forgive others? (I'm assuming you meant that literally, and do believe in a god of some type).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          That was me and to clarify what I said, in Judiasm (and yes I am Jewish and believe in God) we teach that if someone comes to you for forgiveness for doing wrong to you after they approach you three times (if you didn't forgive them the first two) and you don't give it to them on the third the sin becomes yours. YOU then must atone to God for not giving forgiveness. It does not say you have to forget what they did to you however.

                                          So, the way I see this incident: I CAN'T offer any of them forgiveness for their sins since they didn't do it TO me. But, it therefore can be said that only those directly involved can do so too.

                                          Is all the debate over this truly hatred towards those involved or great anger in ensuring that no one ever forgets?

                                          "I drank what?" Socrates
                                          \"The credit belongs to those people who are actually in the arena...who know the great enthusiasms, the great devotions to a worthy cause; who at best, know the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, fail while daring greatly, so that their

                                          Comment

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