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Could you contain yourself if you ran into Tommy Burns-Horse Killer?

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  • Thanks for the clarification, Silk. My point was that while of course I'm not condoning what happened, in some cases there might have been some mitigating circumstances.

    *****************************
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    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne:
      Thanks for the clarification, Silk. My point was that while of course I'm not condoning what happened, in some cases there might have been some mitigating circumstances.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      I know....its really hard. My trainer now was a student of PV's. Pv still sells nice horses....Its so complicated and interwovem...all the facts, unknowns, etc. It still makes me sick when I think about the horses, though. I look into the eyes of mine (as evil as they sometimes are) and weep for those that were electrocuted AND all those "grade" backyard horses suffering from neglect, abuse, etc.

      When I read things about starving horses, I sometimes think Charisma got off easier than some (sob).

      -=vicki=-

      **&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**
      Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

      Comment


      • I don't know anything about Marion's financial situation, but *even if* the Lindemanns helped with Gail, they had *plenty* of money for that. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them.

        Oh -- and I'm certainly not condemning the Jayne kids for the sins of some of the older generation. I'm congratulating them for succeeding! The offenses are public record, though -- and I actually think they benefit from a discussion about how good they are and how much they are not connected with the escapades of old Si and George. In fact -- when I was living in the Chicago area and looking for barns, I had just read "Hot Blood" and did my darndest to stay far away from anyone named "Jayne." Now I feel pretty bad about it -- doubtless I would have benefitted from knowing that they were highly reputable people. Heck -- I've got some family members that I ain't too proud of either!

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by libgrrl:
          I don't know anything about Marion's financial situation, but *even if* the Lindemanns helped with Gail, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          It wasn't a "money" thing......and I agree with you: I have family members I am not proud of either

          **&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**
          Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

          Comment


          • VERY well-said, Palisades

            Comment


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:
              [When I read things about starving horses, I sometimes think Charisma got off easier than some (sob). -=vicki=-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Those are dangerous thoughts, since that is often how training abuse and the killing of horses such as Charisma are rationalized.

              Make no bones about it, Charisma died a horrible death that thankfully law enforcement documented. Even the officers involved were shocked at the brutality of it.

              So Easy is correct, there are many branches to the Jayne family. Frank Jayne Jr. also owns barns in the chicago area, and while at present, seemingly runs a normal operation. However, if you watch the news, is regularly brought in for questioning and charges in regards to crimes linking from the children killed in the 50's, to Helen Brach and the con jobs that linked to it, to drug charges he served. I believe barn arson in the 80's and horse killings that occurred in the seventies are the current charges he was brought in on. Danny Jayne was charged with a barn fire in the late 80's, but was not found guilty.

              It is nice to see that once this ball got rolling, there are those out there that are seeing to it that his past catches up with him. These are facts and a nice little mafia saga that is better than the Soprano's. Once the chicago horse mafia connections such as Tommy Byrnes made deals with the likes of Barney Ward, Lindemann, etc. it became business as usual.

              I have read some of Maggie Jaynes posts and have been impressed with them and her thoughts.

              However, I think the lesson learned from all of this is not just to look at the names, but to really pay attention to the behavior. This stuff got out of control and grew because of ego's and greed.

              If you see signs something corrupt or abusive to a horse, even at your local schooling shows with a no name trainer, run from it and more importantly report it.

              Don't let that competitive part of human nature make you cross the line to what is truly criminal, because it will grow. Silas Jayne was once a no name too.

              [This message was edited by CRT on Feb. 26, 2003 at 01:42 AM.]

              Comment


              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CRT: Silas Jayne was once a no name [too].<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Careful now Grandpa Silas has the criminal record. Please be considerate of he with the same name - a very kind and gentle man.

                Comment


                • A few things:

                  For people who think threads like this shouldn't be allowed...I stopped riding in 1989 for college and just recently got back into the sport. I had no idea what had occurred until about three weeks ago when I came across some thread with some PV references. I was shocked at the tone because I remembered PV as a top trainer. Well, I did a little research and viola!, I found out why. I just finished reading Hot Blood and its awfulness is still lingering. I never would've heard anything of this horrible practice if it hadn't been for a new thread here, re-hashing old stuff. These threads have merit.

                  As for what I think of PV, I guess I'm in the forgiveness camp. I would hate to live in a world where I wasn't allowed to change, even if that change was brought on only because I got caught doing something horrible. Maybe he has changed, maybe he hasn't, I have a hard time judging either way because I do not know him.

                  I actually find what Marion Hulick and George Lindemann, Jr, did worse because they tried to hide it. After reading some of the things from their trial (admittedly from a biased source...Hot Blood) I would have a harder time forgiving them.
                  Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                  Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                  Comment


                  • I could not. I would probably make him VERY sorry if I could. I would hate to be violent but how would he feel if he was plugged into an electrical socket. Well to answer your question If I saw him he would probably walk away bloody. GRRRRR

                    If the blanket fits, buy two!

                    If you get a chance to ride a psyco horse, GALLOP!!
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                    • Charisma was electrocuted.
                      Streetwise had his leg fractured with a crowbar. He had a clause in his insurance policy not covering him for colic. He was the horse killing that cracked the case wide open.

                      Comment


                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We are guilty by association? Gag me again. McLain may ride like dad, but he sure ain't his dad...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        You must not remember the FEI debacle back in 1999/2000 relating to his being asked to leave Germany for putting sharp pieces of plastic in his horses front boots. He was set down by the FEI and USAE (AHSA at the time). Two months earlier he was fined for refusing to submit to an equipment inspection by a steward in Sweden at an FEI competition. In the same time frame one of his horses tested positive for cocaine on a drug screen.

                        The general consensus if I remember correctly was that everyone felt betrayed (albeit indirectly) since they had extended the belief that he was NOT like his father unconditionally and then he got busted for doing something that could potentially cause harm to the horse.

                        Eventually he struck a plea bargain so to speak with the USAE and the part that REALLY infuriated me on top of everything else was that they structured his suspension so that he could still try and qualify for the Olympics!

                        I haven't noticed them modifying anyone else's suspensions to allow them to keep competing in the interest of their careers. Why did he merit special treatment?

                        The thread on this:

                        McLain Ward Debate

                        was just one of the discussions generated. It was the only one I could find. The debate got so heated that at one time he finally publically signed in on the boards and expressed himself about it.

                        When it comes to him, my opinion changed after these incidents and as far as I am concerned the "apple didn't fall far from the tree".

                        "I drank what?" Socrates
                        \"The credit belongs to those people who are actually in the arena...who know the great enthusiasms, the great devotions to a worthy cause; who at best, know the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, fail while daring greatly, so that their

                        Comment


                        • Gayle, I thought this was a topic about Tommy Burns?


                          Dirty Laundry
                          Don Henley

                          "I make my living off the Evening News
                          Just give me something-something I can use
                          People love it when you lose,
                          They love dirty laundry

                          Well, I coulda been an actor, but I wound up here
                          I just have to look good, I don't have to be clear
                          Come and whisper in my ear
                          Give us dirty laundry

                          Kick 'em when they're up
                          Kick 'em when they're down
                          Kick 'em when they're up
                          Kick 'em when they're down
                          Kick 'em when they're up
                          Kick 'em when they're down
                          Kick 'em when they're up
                          Kick 'em all around

                          We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who
                          comes on at five
                          She can tell you 'bout the plane crash with a gleam
                          in her eye
                          It's interesting when people die-
                          Give us dirty laundry

                          Can we film the operation?
                          Is the head dead yet?
                          You know, the boys in the newsroom got a
                          running bet
                          Get the widow on the set!
                          We need dirty laundry

                          You don't really need to find out what's going on
                          You don't really want to know just how far it's gone
                          Just leave well enough alone
                          Eat your dirty laundry

                          Kick 'em when they're up
                          Kick 'em when they're down
                          Kick 'em when they're up
                          Kick 'em when they're down

                          Kick 'em when they're up
                          Kick 'em when they're down
                          Kick 'em when they're stiff
                          Kick 'em all around

                          Dirty little secrets
                          Dirty little lies
                          We got our dirty little fingers in everybody's pie
                          We love to cut you down to size
                          We love dirty laundry

                          We can do "The Innuendo"
                          We can dance and sing
                          When it's said and done we haven't told you a thing
                          We all know that Crap is King
                          Give us dirty laundry!

                          Comment


                          • Let's keep in mind here that there was no proof of what McClain did...and the fact that people are CONSTANTLY trying to make him out to be a bad seed because of what his dad did. Let's also look at ALL THE UNSCRUPULOUS practices that I'm SURE are occuring at WEF or Ocala or Indio even as I type...Maybe these horses aren't being killed but they are being drugged to feel no pain, asked to compete week in and week out at very high levels. Some of them are nerved, poled or otherwise abused. This is NOT a perfect sport, and we ALL make mistakes. I am not condoning what happened but I am asking everyone to look at themselves, and what they do or have done(myself included, if I had known better I NEVER would have jumped so much at shows with my wonderful horse who still never quits), and just think about this as an opportunity to learn from others mistakes and make us all better horsepeople.

                            Can you stress-fracture your brain?

                            Comment


                            • Hey guys, I was at Food Lion yesterday, and I saw a lady buy a bag of baby broccoli and I overheard her saying she was going to make some baby quiches. I was then forced to tackle her to the ground, snatch the baby broccoli from her arms and bust ass out of the store.

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by special delivery:
                                7/8 you know better than to post hearsay here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                It is not hearsay when the bubble-headed bleach blonde reports it on the evening news, is it?

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 7/8:
                                  I overheard her saying she was going to make some baby quiches.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  7/8 you know better than to post hearsay here.

                                  Comment


                                  • 7/8, how DARE you harm that woman! It's her RIGHT to kill baby broccoli!

                                    You'd really hate me! I bought PEEPS and tried to force-feed them to my TB mare the other day. She prefers Baby carrots

                                    Comment


                                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
                                      _Gayle, _ I thought this was a topic about Tommy Burns? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      Amen

                                      Tommy Burns and dinner parties

                                      Comment


                                      • I really find if very offensive that anyone would mention McLain in the context of this thread. The paying for sins of the father nonsense really needs to cease. As for the Aachen situation I still firmly believe that he was framed because he was a major threat to the Germans. Just my two cents

                                        Comment


                                        • I feel bad for the family members who have to live with these consequences. Why the **** didn't BW think of that when he did what he did? I think that's what really seems to bug people about this whole mess. Honest to God, none of these people ever seemed the least bit sorry for doing it. Sorry they were caught, yes. Marion Hulick weeping about how she should only get house arrest because she had to care for her family, Barney Ward acting so aggrieved because he can't be there to watch his son ride. For God's sake, as you whine about your children did you ever once think of your children while you were killing FIFTEEN, my God, FIFTEEN horses, or threatening to kill Tommy Burns if he talked? Where was the concern for the children then? It's still ME ME ME for BW, isn't it? Why can't *I* watch my son? This is unfair to *ME*, why can't *I* do this or that? Never a word of sorrow.

                                          As to PV, I don't know him but it doesn't seem he's been whining. He's tried to work within the limits set by his suspension and to keep his nose clean and add good works to his life. Sincere or not, how would I know? but fair is fair. People CAN change, either sincerely or simply to keep from getting caught again, and if you serve your time then how awful to have people throwing up your sins forever and ever. If BW had served his 15-yr suspension w/o kvetching the whole time about how wronged he was and then applied for reinstatement, fine, but he didn't choose that route. He chose to act as though HE was the wronged one.

                                          If PV made a terrible mistake, he certainly seems to be atoning through wearing the wire that caught some of these jerks to being a friend and a help to both people and horses now. Well, Paul, then God bless you and more power to you.

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