Could you contain yourself if you ran into Tommy Burns-Horse Killer?

[SoEasy]

the Jayne family tree is complex, but let us say that there were some nasty folks on it

[SBT]

If a person is that far removed (ie, great-uncle), I don't think it would bother me too much. What I'm mainly thinking of are older children, spouses, best friends, etc. who were "in the picture" or otherwise close to an offender when the crime took place. Would you trust them? I don't think I could.

~Sara
*Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron*
*T-Minus 7 Weeks Until My Beval Devon Arrives!*

[buryinghill1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
Is Jerry Farmer related to hunter rider Kelley Farmer?
Is Marion Hulick related to James Hulick?
... I wouldn't want to ever be associated with the Wards.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kelley is not related to charming (gag me) Mr. Farmer....Marion was James' mom, until his recent passing....
We are guilty by association? Gag me again. McLain may ride like dad, but he sure ain't his dad...

And as for the Jayne's, please remember there is more than one Silas... be careful Just because your dad (or mom) was an evil snake, doesn't make you one too.

[Duffy]

Boy, am I relieved, ynh! I've heard that I'm related to Lizzie Borden, albeit in a distant manner!

"I can justify anything!"

[libgrrl]

McLain rides like dad?

Gee -- don't insult McLain like that. I used to *hate* watching Barney ride, well before all this mess.

You could tell that Barney wasn't an Eq rider!

[me-again]

dont have alot of time or energy to respond to bb's but have some serious issues with this thread

hasnt this be hashed and re-hashed enough?

have emailed a moderator. . . please guys. . . dont drag a son, daugther, sibling, aunt or uncle someplace that they dont belong. give it a rest.

life is too short. learn from this and move on!!!!! there may be new fish to fry

[Heidi]

The horse world omerta

There's this implicit expecation within the horse world that anyone who's 'serious' as either a pro or ammy must maintain the code of silence and uphold the illusion that all's well with the world and everyone above reproach. As I'm sure many here can attest, nasty deeds, some not far removed from killing a horse for insurance $$, continue.

Having been 'swindled' by an unscrupulous 'dealer' as newbies to the sport, I wish someone would have raised a red flag, jumped up and down and disclosed the dealer's background before we so eagerly jumped in with the leaden weight of ignorance.

McLain Ward rides achingly beautifully. Having watched him over the years, that simple fact shouldn't be undermined by his father's crimes.

[Spot]

Geez - you dont have to actually kill a horse directly to be as bad as these guys either ...

Years back I worked for a top "A" hunter barn. That day, one of the very fancy hunters was being vetted.
I was told to make sure that I gave "X" 2 scoops of bute in his feed that morning.

Hmmm ... said I - isnt "X" getting vetted today?

Of course he is, I was told (in a rather condescending voice, as if anyone with a brain bigger than a pea would know this fact!) THAT is why he needs the bute ...

Oh - okay. So - tell me, how does all of this work when the horse is being given bute to make him sound and hide whatever is wrong with him prior to the vetting?

Well - Dr "X" wants to continue to do work for this barn, and we have also promised him some surgeries if he passes a few horses for us, so it doesnt matter if he needs some bute, he will be going to Trainer "A" who knows the problem the horse has, and will continue to give the horse bute and not let the new owners know.

Plus - he is being insured for Loss of Use, so if he suddenly shows up lame one day, no big deal - the insurance company will pay out and the owner can get a new horse.

So - thats exactly what happens. Horse is fine until one day they stop the bute on him, is now lame, insurance company comes to look at him, pays out the insured value, the horses generally ended up being euthanized and everyone was happy. That is - except for the horses ...

or - the race track was rampant for this sort of stuff.
There is an injectable that causes cardiac arrest in horses, and it is also a substance that is found naturally in their bodies. You cannot tell how much they naturally have in there, nor if some has been injected.
One vet at the track (who always drove nice new luxury cars) was rumored to be the welcome recipient of the $5000.00 fee per horse to do the "dirty deed".
Another track vet, who was a close friend at the time, said that he had been approached several times by trainers who want this done. He refused, but days or weeks later, a horse belonging to that trainer died of cardiac arrest and the really *funny* thing, was that the horses that died were never the ones that were running well, but the high priced (and insured!) ones that werent ...

"Spot"

[J. Turner]

Speculation says that money in some cases wasn't the main motivation, but pride. Pride can do some awful things to a person.

"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

"When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes."
-- Shakespeare, Henry V

[mwalshe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
What I'm mainly thinking of are older children, spouses, best friends, etc. who were "in the picture" or otherwise close to an offender when the crime took place. Would you trust them? I don't think I could.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's an incredibly unfair attitude. And quite wrong, people do things all the time without mentioning it to their nearest and dearest.

[lonewolf]

Does anybody have any suggestions for any more good articles for me to read on this subject? I like to look at a wide variety of sources. I have read Hot Blood, the Sports Illustrated article, and the links Adelita posted. Haven't been able to find much more on the search engines I've used. I'm especially interested in finding stuff from the 'other side', such as interviews with either PV or BW or others.

Won't go on for too long about my personal views on the subject, except to say that I agree with most of what Heidi has posted. And, like maggymay, I do not believe in guilt by association.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A ship in harbour is safe -- but that is not what ships are for
-- John Shedd

[Anne]

Equus had a good article too with memorial pictures of the horses involved.

It was mentioned at trial that Marion Hulick felt she had to participate in the schemes because she needed her job to support James. He was paralyzed in a fall.

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts

[Norsire]

Dateline did a whole hour on it. Maybe you could do a search on NBC.com and find out more from their site.

Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

[Beezer]

I fear that truer words were never spoken.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
Speculation says that money in some cases wasn't the main motivation, but pride. Pride can do some awful things to a person.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I recall of much that was written, at least a couple of horses were killed because they "failed" to live up to expectations and that was a source of "embarrassment."

Would I go to a dinner party with any of them? Sure ... merely for the pleasure of ralphing on each and every one of the sods.

Dear Romans: All I really want for the Ides of March is flying LEAD CHANGES!!

[Palisades]

Would I ever train with one of these men? No. But do I feel that I have the moral superiority necessary to condemn them? No, I really don't.

None of my personal sins have amounted to killing horses, but that doesn't mean that I haven't made some mistakes of my own. I don't believe that these men should be caring for animals anymore. But I also don't know them, or know everything that went on. There's probably a lot more to the story than meets the eye, and I don't feel comfortable passing judgement on other people.

As for the bans- I feel that they should be for life, as anyone who is involved in crimes such as these (for any reason) has given up the privledge of caring for horses. I'm not going to call them evil or say that people can't change or be truly sorry for what they did, but the welfare of the horses has to come first.

That's just my take on it- I feel uncomfortable with some of the opinions expressed here that are along the lines of "these men deserve to die" or "they are irreversably evil". I can, and would, forgive. I just don't forget.

[SBT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggymay:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
What I'm mainly thinking of are older children, spouses, best friends, etc. who were "in the picture" or otherwise close to an offender when the crime took place. Would you trust them? I don't think I could.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's an incredibly unfair attitude. And quite wrong, people do things all the time without mentioning it to their nearest and dearest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must not have expressed myself very well...I am not advocating guilt by association. Family members might know nothing, but if they are still close to the offender (and particularly if they maintain the offender's innocence), that's too close for me, personally. I'm not saying everyone should feel this way...it's how *I* feel, mostly due to personal experience. I gave my business to a trainer whose business partner was jailed for a sex crime. The trainer did time too as an accomplice. I took pity on said trainer, thinking perhaps they were just drawn into the situation, hadn't really done anything wrong, and deserved a chance. I lived to regret it, and I no longer wish to involve myself with people who have such serious "baggage." Call me unfair if you like, but that's my personal choice, and my honest opinion. I'm sorry if it offended anyone.

~Sara
*Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron*
*T-Minus 7 Weeks Until My Beval Devon Arrives!*

[7/8]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoEasy:
the Jayne family tree is complex, but let us say that there were some nasty folks on it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maggie Jayne posts here.

[Silk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It was mentioned at trial that Marion Hulick felt she had to participate in the schemes because she needed her job to support James. He was paralyzed in a fall.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James had (and died as a result of) Multiple Sclerosis. I do not believe he was paralyzed in an accident, but MS does cause a slow loss of muscular function and can cause paralysis.

in addition, Gail (please....lets not blame people for their family - you cannot choose your family) has medical issues that requires quite a bit of care (money).

I suffer from the same disease as Gail, and I consider he a "friend" or friendly aquaintance, so lets not bash her.

I am not supporting in any way what Marion did...but I am saying that you really don't know what you would do to save your child unless you are faced with the situation.

-=vicki=-

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**

[Silk]

Also...I know they are 'bad" people, but everyone has a good side. The Lindemans, Wheelers and various associated people worked very hard to help Marion help Gail in a time of dire medical need. I know this doesn't make it better, but just to know everyone has more than one side.

I AM NOT supporting what they did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-=vicki=-

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**

[Silk]

[QUOTE}
Maggie Jayne posts here.[/QUOTE]

Well, than can I publically congratulate her for an absolutely STUPENDOUS junior career and FABULOUS accomplishments!!

And yes, I think she could have won without Grappa, but I am glad she got to ride him for the finals!!!!!!!!

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**