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Could you contain yourself if you ran into Tommy Burns-Horse Killer?

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  • #81
    Just the facts, ma'am!

    My thoughts exactly. The ugly facts of the whole scandal are far more distressing than any rumours anyway.

    Here is an excellent description of what these "professionals" did in the early 90's. This came from a posting on the big P.V. thread in the Reference section:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "In 1998 thirteen owners and trainers suffered expulsion from the American Horse Show Association for anywhere from five to twenty five years after their horses suffered much worse fates than they. Nancy Banfield, from New York, arranged to have her horse, Rub The Lamp, electrocuted. Lisa Brandon participated in the murder of the horse Cloud Castle. Jerry Farmer, from Georgia, was involved in electrocution schemes. Ross Hugi, D.V.M., witnessed a trainer kill the horse Jatomic Streaker by flipping him out of a horse trailer and beating the horse to death with a hammer. He then falsified the cause of death records. Alan Levinson, from Illinois, schemed to kill Rainman, who was later electrocuted. George Lindemann JR, from Florida, and Marion Hulick, from Massachusetts, hired a killer to electrocute Charisma, who brought $250,000 in insurance money. Ronald Mueller from Spring Grove, Illinois killed many horses by means of sledgehammer, crowbar, live cremation, and electrocution. Barney Ward of Brewster, New York, arranged to electrocute four horses. Steve Williamson of Chicago, Illinois stood "lookout" while the electrocution of Empire took place. He later helped create the colic symptoms that would be deemed the cause of death."

    from a good article at http://www.horse-country.com/jriders...say/index.html

    Found this on another newspaper engine:

    The complete list of the accused:

    Kenneth Hansen, 61, of Chicago, three counts of murder; Richard Bailey, 65, of Chicago, racketeering, mail and wire fraud, money laundering, and crimes relating to murder; Robert Brown of Michigan, racketeering, mail and wire fraud; Jerry Farmer, 61, of Augusta, Ga., racketeering, impeding the IRS; Dr. Ross Hugi, 50, of Mundelein, Ill., wire fraud (pleaded guilty); Barney Ward, 50, of Brewster, N.Y., mail and wire fraud, obstruction of justice, threatening a witness, and conspiracy; George Lindemann Jr., 30, of Greenwich, Conn., wire fraud; Marion Hulick, 60, of Greenwich, Conn., wire fraud; Paul Valliere, 43, North Smithfield, R.I., conspiracy; Nancy Banfield, 36, of Mathews, Va., conspiracy; Donna Brown, 37, of Palm Beach, Fla., wire fraud; Tim Ray a.k.a. Tom Burns, conspiracy; Dr. Dana Tripp, 34, of Valencia, Pa., conspiracy, failure to file tax returns, and concealing a felony; Johnnie Youngblood, 32, of Napierville, Ill., mail fraud; Steve Williamson, 51, of Plainfield, Ill., mail fraud; Tammie Glaspie, 36, of Walker, Mich., mail fraud; James Hutson, 53, of Winona, Mich., mail fraud; Alan Levinson, 52, of Highland Park, Ill., mail fraud (pleaded guilty); Michael Hunter, 45, of Mundelein, Ill., mail fraud (pleaded guilty); Donna Hunter, 43, of Mundelein, mail fraud; Phil Sudakoff, 76, of Chicago, mail fraud; Herb Kroninger, 53, of Bolingbrook, Ill., mail fraud; Scott Thompson, conspiracy; Ron Mueller, 62, formerly of Harvard, Ill., lying to federal peace officer.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I said it on the big thread, and I'll say it again: may Rub the Lamp, Roseau Platiere, Charisma, and all the other equine victims rest in peace.

    Comment


    • #82
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Louise:
      Guys, lets keep this discussion to facts, not rumours, please. "I heard that someone did something" is not a fact and can get not only the BB, but the individual who posted into trouble.

      Thanks!!!

      ---------------------------
      This too, shall pass.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


      Oooooo. Does this mean I'm in trouble? Oh, I will do my best to try and behave.

      OK, fine, I saw him do it but it didn't look like a punch to me. I just thought he slapped her.

      `````````````````````````````````````````
      "When I started riding at 5, I had two titles: kid and rider. Thank God I’m still a rider."

      "Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

      "If you have the time, spend it. If you have a hand, lend it. If you have the money, give it. If you have a heart, share it." by me

      Comment


      • #83
        I would not deign to recognize his presence in a room.

        Just remember this too- cheap horses get offed for insurance money, too. Double bagging a horse's head with hefty bags will kill one, too- ugly old world isn't it?

        God will sort them out, I'm sure of it.

        "Shoot me now! Shoot me now!"
        Bugs Bunny

        Comment


        • #84
          I am having some trouble processing this because it appears that these people were procescuted...but for minor things like "conspiracy" and "mail fraud". Not that these are things I would want on my record, but isn't inhumanely murdering an innocent animal a crime worthy of some serious punishment????

          apparently, we as a society do not value the lives of others the way we say we do??!!!???

          And really, what is 250,000 to someone like GL? Isn't that just a drop in the bucket? I just don't get it. I would think a more serious punishment would follow such serious doings.

          Big Sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!

          **&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**
          Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

          Comment


          • #85
            ---------------------------


            OK, fine, I saw him do it but it didn't look like a punch to me. I just thought he slapped her.

            `````````````````````````````````````````
            And she didn't nail him in the balls right then and there?

            I had a trainer get physical (rough) with me once.....he never did it again. Of course I went to court for assault, but was found it was in self-defense and CWAFed.

            **&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**
            Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

            Comment


            • #86
              Watch "Animal Precinct" for a lesson in anti-cruelty laws

              Or talk to our own lilblackhorse regarding a recent horrible cruelty case in OR where unfortunately, the punishment for animal cruelty is not very harsh.

              Have you ever watched "Animal Precinct?" Those ASPCA officers arrest some real creeps, carefully build their cases for abuse (reminder to self: save all 10,000 ticks from near-death infested neglected dog to prove cruelty occurred) and these scum STILL get a relatively light punishment. Usually probation and a promise to never have animals again. Yeah, right.

              I guess it's because under our legal code, animals are dealt with as property, and are not given the same legal status as human beings when it comes to issues of pain and suffering, etc.

              I do not want to start an animal rights debate because frankly I don't agree that animals should be given legal "companion" status, or not treated legally as property, because that opens the doors to all sorts of extreme legislation from the crazed animal rights types.

              So to answer your question, Silk, since the punishment for animal cruelty is a relative slap on the wrist, I am glad these pigs got convicted of relatively "minor" crimes such as federal wire fraud, which was the only way for prosecutors to insure that these people got JAIL TIME.

              Comment


              • #87
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:
                since the punishment for animal cruelty is a relative slap on the wrist, I am glad these pigs got convicted of relatively "minor" crimes such as federal wire fraud, which was the only way for prosecutors to insure that these people got JAIL TIME.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                That's right. I think it was even addressed in Ken Englade's book "Hot Blood". I seem to remember him commenting that the prosecuters were sadly aware that as horrible as the crimes against the horses were, animal abuse in itself didn't hold much weight in court. Kind of sad really that it was the insurance fraud that was more important than the actual death of the horses.

                Comment


                • #88
                  I think there is a fine line between those who abuse animals and those who abuse people.....if any line at all. A killer is a killer; an abuser is an abuser.

                  **&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**
                  Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:
                    I think there is a fine line between those who abuse animals and those who abuse people.....if any line at all. A killer is a killer; an abuser is an abuser.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                    Agreed, Silk... But NO line, IMHO. Alas, it's ironic that other felons are more socially acceptable at dinner tables in the horse world

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Some dinner tables maybe ... I think we have all been through the discussions on pedophiles in our midst as well.
                      Mal:This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then .... explode

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Not my dinner table, yournamehere!

                        "I can justify anything!"
                        \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
                          Not my dinner table, yournamehere!
                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> me neither, duff. not even my picnic table.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:
                            The complete list of the accused:

                            Kenneth Hansen, 61, of Chicago, three counts of murder; Richard Bailey, 65, of Chicago, racketeering, mail and wire fraud, money laundering, and crimes relating to murder; Robert Brown of Michigan, racketeering, mail and wire fraud; Jerry Farmer, 61, of Augusta, Ga., racketeering, impeding the IRS; Dr. Ross Hugi, 50, of Mundelein, Ill., wire fraud (pleaded guilty); Barney Ward, 50, of Brewster, N.Y., mail and wire fraud, obstruction of justice, threatening a witness, and conspiracy; George Lindemann Jr., 30, of Greenwich, Conn., wire fraud; Marion Hulick, 60, of Greenwich, Conn., wire fraud; Paul Valliere, 43, North Smithfield, R.I., conspiracy; Nancy Banfield, 36, of Mathews, Va., conspiracy; Donna Brown, 37, of Palm Beach, Fla., wire fraud; Tim Ray a.k.a. Tom Burns, conspiracy; Dr. Dana Tripp, 34, of Valencia, Pa., conspiracy, failure to file tax returns, and concealing a felony; Johnnie Youngblood, 32, of Napierville, Ill., mail fraud; Steve Williamson, 51, of Plainfield, Ill., mail fraud; Tammie Glaspie, 36, of Walker, Mich., mail fraud; James Hutson, 53, of Winona, Mich., mail fraud; Alan Levinson, 52, of Highland Park, Ill., mail fraud (pleaded guilty); Michael Hunter, 45, of Mundelein, Ill., mail fraud (pleaded guilty); Donna Hunter, 43, of Mundelein, mail fraud; Phil Sudakoff, 76, of Chicago, mail fraud; Herb Kroninger, 53, of Bolingbrook, Ill., mail fraud; Scott Thompson, conspiracy; Ron Mueller, 62, formerly of Harvard, Ill., lying to federal peace officer.
                            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Is Jerry Farmer related to hunter rider Kelley Farmer? Is Marion Hulick related to James Hulick?

                            I wonder how many of our top riders and trainers have ties (familial or otherwise) to the fraud/abuse underworld...even if they're "straight" themselves.

                            For instance, just based on things I've heard, I wouldn't want to ever be associated with the Wards. Even McLain, as adorable and talented as he is. Even "one step removed" from a situation is still too close for me. I learned that the hard way. Not to mention the fact that people tend to judge you based on the company you keep.

                            Would you ride with someone who was RELATED to, or otherwise associated with, a convicted horse killer? Son/daughter, husband/wife, Ex-whatever? I have to admit it would give me pause.

                            ~Sara
                            *Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron*
                            *T-Minus 7 Weeks Until My Beval Devon Arrives!*

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              I am pretty sure Marion Hulick is related to James Hulick.

                              WRT "family members", I'd take it on a case by case basis, and consider the current relationship.

                              For instance, AFAIK, Buddy Brown no longer has any connection with his ex-wife. But Mclain Ward DOES still work with his father.

                              Janet
                              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                              Janet

                              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Slightly tangential (sp? or is even a word?) topic - a local guy just plead guilty to 4 counts of misdemeanor animal abuse for letting 4 of his 8 horses starve to death last year. He got 4 months in county jail, 2 years' probabtion, and has to repay the costs of disposing of the horses - supposedly around $400. Oh yeah, he can't own any horses during the 2 years. While I'm suprised he actually got 4 months in jail, I'm suprised/disappointed that he could plead to a misdemeanor. I don't know if that's based on the sale price of the horses or not, but I know he paid over $1000 for all of them, and over $10,000 for many of them. Does anyone know the basis for misdemeanor vs. felony?

                                And no, I don't think I could even be in the building with Tommy Burns, much less at the table. I would spend a very long time in jail if I was.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  You know - I think when you screw someone, hurt someone, do a dirty deed to someone or something - I agree 110% - it should not be forgotten and hushed up - it should be stated as fact. Not rumors and innuendos - "just the facts".

                                  I know when I stated the fact in another post that I got screwed on a purchase of a palomino TB weanling colt back in 1998, that was conceived by AI and subsequently lost his Jockey Club registration papers as a result, and I was left with an unregistered "grade" animal,(as well as being out a HUGE amount of money!) most people felt as I did - that others SHOULD be made aware of who sold this colt to me (Lauren Efford of Goldhope Farm in PA) to try and avoid this happening to them in the future.
                                  Others said that she had *changed* and has sold them a nice horse since then.
                                  So - selling one or two or three nice horses should forgive you from screwing 1 or 2 or 3 other people on their sales??? And never saying "you're sorry, let alone offering to make restitution either?

                                  Not in my books!

                                  Makes about as much sense as saying that Barney and Paul and Tommy Burns DIDNT kill all of the horses they had in their care, so we should forgive them for the one or two that they DID see fit to kill along the way ...

                                  "Spot"

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yournamehere:
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
                                    Not my dinner table, yournamehere!
                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> me neither, duff. not even my picnic table.

                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    Not even my tailgate, ynh, even if I had one!

                                    "I can justify anything!"
                                    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      You realize,

                                      If you tar "family members" with the same brush, you are also referring to Maggie and Charlie Jayne.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by libgrrl:
                                        You realize,

                                        If you tar "family members" with the same brush, you are also referring to Maggie and Charlie Jayne.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        How so?

                                        ~Sara
                                        *Member of the Dirt Divers 78th Airborne Unit, ATH Squadron*
                                        *T-Minus 7 Weeks Until My Beval Devon Arrives!*

                                        Comment


                                        • They are related to Silas Jayne and his brother (great uncle, I think?).

                                          This shouldn't be any reflection on Maggie and Charlie, however. As far as I know, they are great people. They happen to have unfortunate relatives.

                                          Comment

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