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Hypothetical Question (Spinoff:Retirement Farms)

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  • Hypothetical Question (Spinoff:Retirement Farms)

    I was scanning through the retirement farm thread yesterday at the barn waiting for the GameReady to run its course on my own crippled young horse and got to thinking about what I would do with him if I couldn't afford to keep him where he is now.

    My vet is married to my BO, lives on premises and happened to be in the barn with me getting ready to ride his own horse so I asked him if he would consider putting my most likely forever lame horse down if it got to the point that I couldn't afford to board him anywhere. I was kind of surprised at how adamant he was that he would never put a horse that was perfectly sound in the pasture and otherwise healthy down.

    Apparently he has had other owners ask him to euthanize a healthy horse for financial reasons and he can't ethically reconcile himself to it. He does what he can to help them find the horse a home as a companion but if they're determined to euthanize they have to get another vet to do it.

    I know he has put down very young horses with chronic lamenesses that make them uncomfortable in the pasture when the owners cannot afford treatment so apparently the line for him is when they are sound and comfortable in their day to day life just not rideable. He also won't euth healthy, sound horses due to owner financial difficulties unless the horse has an obvious problem (such as being abnormally aggressive) that makes them dangerous.

    I was just curious if anyone else had come across this. I'm currently applying to vet school (find out in a week or two) and will come across this eventually when practicing most likely and was just wondering how other vets/horse owners view that type of situation. Ethically wrong or acceptable?

  • #2
    I think it is certainly within the owner's rights and perfectly ethical to put down a horse that is no longer sound. Unless your vet is planning on taking in every horse he refuses to euthanize than I would think he is being unreasonable. Far better for the horse to end his days with people who know and love him than begin an endless shuffle as a "companion horse" - just look on the Giveaways Forum to see how many are out there.

    I may be wrong, but I see this as a more recent phenomenon as horses are considered more pets than livestock. I remember horses being put down when they were no longer rideable and the owner did not have endless funds to support them. It wasn't considered morally reprehensible and was perfectly acceptable for the unsound horse to be put down. Conversely, most people did find retirement options for their oldtimers.

    There are so many unwanted young sound horses out there heading for the kill pens that it seems to me the kindest, dare I say ethical, solution is to put down the unrideable horse and give one of those poor beasts a chance at a new life. I know most people probably won't agree but....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by WorthTheWait95 View Post
      I was scanning through the retirement farm thread yesterday at the barn waiting for the GameReady to run its course on my own crippled young horse and got to thinking about what I would do with him if I couldn't afford to keep him where he is now.

      My vet is married to my BO, lives on premises and happened to be in the barn with me getting ready to ride his own horse so I asked him if he would consider putting my most likely forever lame horse down if it got to the point that I couldn't afford to board him anywhere. I was kind of surprised at how adamant he was that he would never put a horse that was perfectly sound in the pasture and otherwise healthy down.

      Apparently he has had other owners ask him to euthanize a healthy horse for financial reasons and he can't ethically reconcile himself to it. He does what he can to help them find the horse a home as a companion but if they're determined to euthanize they have to get another vet to do it.

      I know he has put down very young horses with chronic lamenesses that make them uncomfortable in the pasture when the owners cannot afford treatment so apparently the line for him is when they are sound and comfortable in their day to day life just not rideable. He also won't euth healthy, sound horses due to owner financial difficulties unless the horse has an obvious problem (such as being abnormally aggressive) that makes them dangerous.

      I was just curious if anyone else had come across this. I'm currently applying to vet school (find out in a week or two) and will come across this eventually when practicing most likely and was just wondering how other vets/horse owners view that type of situation. Ethically wrong or acceptable?
      Worth,
      Neither of our vets will euthanize a healthy horse that the owner just can't keep. They both refer folks to us (one of our core functions is to help owners find other homes when we cannot bring a horse here), and we do our best. We help rehome roughly 10-25 horses per month that never come to our facility.

      However, the University will euthanize any animal any time, as far as I know no real questions asked.

      The one that's most impressed me, though, for having strong morals, is the local Exotic Cat rescue. They will take an infirm horse and lay it ot rest, to use the meat to feed their rescues. But, they, too, will not take a healthy horse. "We will not kill one species in need to feed another. That's not right," is what their director says very adamantly. If the animal is healthy, she refers them to us and to other rescue resources. Given that they, like all rescues, are struggling for funds and having an offer of hundreds of pound of free feed for their animals, they turn it down if they feel it is ethically wrong.

      At our rescue, any horse which is pasture sound and has a good quality of life, we will do our very best to rehome anad will not lay to rest out of convenience. (Please see my thread today about stocks...that's a horse we had accepted would only be pasture sound who is now recovering and preparing for riding training). Any animal that has a bad quality of life and little hope of a comfortable future, those we would assist in crossing the rainbow bridge. We've even taken in a few simply to ease their passing when it was the kindest choice.
      AnnMarie Cross, Pres, Crosswinds Equine Rescue, cwer.org
      Sidell IL (near Champ./UofI/Danville IL/IN state border)

      Comment


      • #4
        I have a serious problem with a vet who won't consider putting down a healthy, pasture sound horse because of an owner's financial situation. The hard truth is horses who can't do a job have limited usefulness, and we can't save all of them.

        Would this vet rather have that perfectly health, pasture sound horse end up at auction or starved half to death because the owner has no other option?

        Comment


        • #5
          I recently got a lecture from a vet because I asked him about putting down a 25+ year old horse who was in body condition score of 1.0. (He was that way when we picked him up). He gave me a lecture about how I just needed to feed him and he would not put down a healthy horse. (Now, I don't agree that a horse in that condition IS healthy).

          I wasn't making arrangements to do it, btw. I just asked him if he would consider it...

          What are owners who cannot keep their horses and cannot rehome them supposed to do with them? I know some rescues will take them in, but I also know WE generally don't (as we stay full with neglect cases). I know some areas have auctions you can sell at, but some don't...

          Are they supposed to let the horses starve until someone HAS to intervene? I don't like euthanasia but would rather see a healthy horse euthanized than allowed to starve because an owner cannot feed it and cannot find someone to take it...

          (And that does happen... too often...)
          Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

          Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

          Comment


          • #6
            This puts vets in a very, very hard position.

            Most will choose to help horses above all else-- even when that means protecting them from people. I think vets in performance horse practices have a few things that make them unwilling to euthanize pasture-sound horses:

            They believe their owners can find the dough to do the right thing. After all, they bought, boarded, trained, treated, and paid entry-fees for their animals when those horses were "good."

            Second, they aren't usually dealing with starving horses and genuinely broke owners who could not do otherwise. I can't imagine how hard it is for a vet who cares for horses owned by the truly broke. It would feel like a coercion to me, even if that was unintentional.

            Third, we all remember show hunters being electrocuted and maimed for insurance money. No one wants to get close to that in any way, shape or form.

            The problem is not that different people have different ideas about when to euthanize. It's the vets can be made to feel that they are single-handedly holding back a tide of immorality.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • #7
              Because in every lecture and every continuing ed seminar that I have EVER been too, euthanasia is the #1 cause of burnout in the veterinary profession. You don't go through 8 years of school to learn how to help animals to just kill them at an owner's whim. It generally isn't in our makeup. And unfortunately, the vets that I've found that will euth anything and don't care, usually don't care much about saving things either.
              Holly
              www.ironhorsefrm.com
              Oldenburg foals and young prospects
              LIKE us on Facebook!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by gettingbettereveryday View Post
                Would this vet rather have that perfectly health, pasture sound horse end up at auction or starved half to death because the owner has no other option?
                That statement assumes that veterinary euthanasia is the only way for the horse to die humanely. In reality, there are plenty of humane ways to end a horse's life without euthanasia or a slaughter house.

                The easiest, cheapest, and most accessible is to use an experienced marksman with an appropriate gun. Assuming it is done correctly and with the right weapon, death by gunshot is instantaneous.

                http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext...TH-HORSES.HTML
                Head Geek at The Saddle Geek Blog http://www.thesaddlegeek.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jn4jenny View Post
                  That statement assumes that veterinary euthanasia is the only way for the horse to die humanely. In reality, there are plenty of humane ways to end a horse's life without euthanasia or a slaughter house.

                  The easiest, cheapest, and most accessible is to use an experienced marksman with an appropriate gun. Assuming it is done correctly and with the right weapon, death by gunshot is instantaneous.

                  http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext...TH-HORSES.HTML
                  I don't disagree that one can put one's horse down and that one should know how to do so (my husband and I absolutely know how to do it and wouldn't hesitate to do so in an emergency); but there are plenty of people who would go to their vet first because they don't have access to a gun, they don't know how to use the gun, or it's illegal to shoot an animal because of city/county ordinances.

                  To have a vet say absolutely not because they feel it's unethical (burnout or not, euthanasia is part of the job) is completely frustrating to me. It speaks to a larger problem in this country. We simply can't save every single animal, and like it or not, horses are expensive livestock.

                  It's not like keeping an 8-pound dog that has a incontinence problems (I have one of those) or a brain-damaged cat (got one of those too) or a rooster with a broken wing that healed incorrectly (yep, one of those too). Horses are expensive creatures that require plenty of extra care of all kinds--more space, more expensive vet care, more expensive food, farrier work, etc. If people honestly feel they can't support that horse and if they don't want to see the horse end up in a bad place, I feel that's far more ethical to put it down than to pass the animal along and hope that nothing bad happens to it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gettingbettereveryday View Post
                    If people honestly feel they can't support that horse and if they don't want to see the horse end up in a bad place, I feel that's far more ethical to put it down than to pass the animal along and hope that nothing bad happens to it.
                    I don't envy vets their job. And it cannot be easy to make the call to put down a healthy horse just because the owners cannot afford to keep it or to put down a horse with health conditions because the owners cannot afford to treat them. However, dog and cat shelter directors and veterinarians do have to make that decision daily. And I can foresee a time in the future when horses will be treated the same way (I don't have to LIKE that).

                    I also have come across owners who have tried to sell or give away their horses. No one would take them and then they start to starve. Some places don't have accessible auctions, and some owners fear that their horse will wind up at slaughter. Not everyone has the ability to knowledge to shoot their own horse.

                    So the horses start to starve, we get called in as a rescue, and the owners just want us to take the horses. I've had owners thank my volunteers for showing up because they were desperate.

                    It puts ALL of us, not just veterinarians, in a tough position. No one wants to see horses die, and if the vets can help find them new homes, that's awesome. But when resources are exhausted and you still have no home for the horse, what do you do?
                    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

                    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by WorthTheWait95 View Post
                      I was just curious if anyone else had come across this. I'm currently applying to vet school (find out in a week or two) and will come across this eventually when practicing most likely and was just wondering how other vets/horse owners view that type of situation. Ethically wrong or acceptable?
                      well my vet has said certainly "yes" and when I quizzed him further he said that the animal was my property and mine to do with as I wished...

                      he would not be party to pain or injury on my whim, but putting down a perfectly healthy horse for "just no good reason" he said yes of course..
                      Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                      I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't know if my vet would or wouldn't put down a healthly horse, I think he wouldn't.

                        We have a mare we bought (only to get her out of her bad situation, she was starved, locked in a stall with a foal at her side, she was a body score of 2 when we got her) 3 years ago, she has heaves and something is wrong with one side of her hip, that leg is a little higher and she almost always stands with the toe just touching the ground. She moves gimpy, not in pain just stiff, we give her joint suppliment and she is on grass, she runs and bucks and snakes her head around when turned out in the morning, and sometimes after a good nap and stretch she'll canter (or gallop) in her peculiar little way so I know she is ok.

                        But she had bad attacks with her heaves twice, breathing so hard, nostrils as big as coke cans, sweating, SHOVING every breath out of her little body. We called our vet to come put her down (two times) and made arrangements for burial, but when the vet arrives she is fine and grumpy again "What do you want? Leave me alone! Wait, do you have a carrot? Give it to me, now GO!"

                        Our vet is always relieved that she is fine when he gets there as he says he absolutely hates to put down a horse that otherwise can be fine pasture pet only.

                        This past summer has been the best for Babydoll, she has not had ONE attack of heaves!! We wet her grain and wash her hay down at night and she's on grass all day. She is the vet figures about 27-28 years old.

                        She is cute as a button and mean as snake, or so she trys to make you think she is. But when she looks at you sometimes with those cute little ears forward, eyes on you and that sweet look on her face and you just melt. She is soft as a bunny rabbit! I love to rub along her neck...
                        I want a signature but I have nothing original to say except: "STHU and RIDE!!!

                        Wonderful COTHER's I've met: belleellis, stefffic, snkstacres and janedoe726.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gettingbettereveryday View Post
                          I have a serious problem with a vet who won't consider putting down a healthy, pasture sound horse because of an owner's financial situation. The hard truth is horses who can't do a job have limited usefulness, and we can't save all of them.

                          Would this vet rather have that perfectly health, pasture sound horse end up at auction or starved half to death because the owner has no other option?
                          Why isn't there an "applaud" icon?
                          JB-Infinity Farm
                          www.infinitehorses.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Worth the Wait-
                            First, be sure to let us know about vet school
                            My vet has the same philosophy yours does, and she's worked in rescue for years.

                            This is going to be a topic I bring up in our ethics class next semester. It's a good one, without any easy answer.

                            Being to feedlots and seeing where horses go after they are given away (even to once great homes), I may be more likely to euth. a horse someone says they can't afford. But, here's one scenario I know personally occurred recently:

                            23 yr old (not ancient, not young) well broke horse has treatable ailment. Owner doesn't get treatment, horse falls downhill in bad weather. Owner borrows hay from neighbor, and mentions he's going to shoot both his horses, can't afford them.

                            Neighbor gets a vet out, gets euth. paid for, but at this point horse is very sick and staggering. Horse is obviously in need of ending his discomfort. Neighbor wishes she could have afforded to intervene sooner and treat the sick horse, as he was a perfect kid's horse.

                            Owner then comments two days later to neighbor "check out these new iphones we just got for me and my wife." And "BTW, can you feed our dogs for the next 2 weeks, we're going on vacation" Things like this happen a lot more than you'd think. I can't even begin to describe the fancy rigs and new trucks I've seen dropping horses off for slaughter, because they tell me they can't afford to feed it or have it euth'd.

                            Sadly, the decision has a lot more to do than just the horse.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I work for a small animal vet, for whom I have the absolute utmost respect. He will not euthanize any animal that he feels has a treatable condition, just because the owners cannot afford it. However, he has impeccable judgment and always seems to know if the animal truly has a chance or not. He will also offer the owner payment options (which is horrible for his business, as many people flake out on making payments) or if it involves surgery or some other high cost treatments, he will give the owner the option of surrendering the animal to him. He will then treat the animal as needed and re-home.

                              Obviously this is a lot easier for cats and dogs, and also, it is not great for his business! Especially as economic times are tough and we see more and more of these cases.

                              With horses it is a lot more complicated, every vet can't take in every stray horse... so what to do with the old horse with issues and the truly financially strapped owner? Companion horses are a dime a dozen these days.

                              But as FatPalomino pointed out, sometimes people are just "done" with the horse and so where does that leave things? It gets left to the vet's discretion, I guess... which is a shame for the vet.

                              And some vets are far more black and white than others when it comes to dealing with these things (same with some horse people vs. others.) So choosing a vet means you've got to be sure that the vet's morals and ethics mesh with your own...and above anything else, you better be sure you trust their judgment because IMO that is the most important thing in a crisis, emergency, or euthanasia situation.
                              We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                At the small animal clinic where I worked, we too had a policy that we would not euthanize a healthy animal or an animal with a treatable condition (within reason) Believe it or not, some folks would bring Fido in with a flea related allergy and bacterial skin infection and ask us to put him down because they didn't want to pay for the flea meds and antibiotics. Or folks like the husbands/wives who would bring in the family pet--healthy family pet--for euth to get even with their spouse in the middle of a divorce. Or folks who just didn't like the fact that fluffy was getting older and wasn't as playful and they wanted to make room for a new kitty.

                                That said, we did more than just refuse to euth...we offered an option. We would let them sign over the pet to us and we would treat and rehome.

                                I think that's what is missing with the refusal by large animal/equine veterinarians to euth. They don't really have other options to offer beyond saying no. It's a heck of a lot harder for someone to take on "just one more" horse than it is a dog or a cat.

                                But that still does not mean that they shouldn't say no if it feels unethical to them.

                                Still, for those who feel that way, you'd think perhaps they would consider trying to hook up with local rescuers or make some effort to help the owner. I would venture to guess that at least some percentage of owners looking to euth for financial reasons would be happy to sign their horse over if they felt like that was an option.

                                It used to be that there was another option beyond euthing the otherwise healthy but unwanted horse--you could take 'em to a sale and at least sell to the kill buyer. Maybe that's why we're hearing more about veterinarians playing a role here--they are seeing more of the horses that in previous times would've gone to slaughter.

                                Not trying to turn this into a debate about slaughter...just mentioning it because I think more and more, especially this time of year in a rough economy, this issue is going to pop up where previously, there was a "solution" that did not involve the vet.
                                A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                                Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Thanks for all the insight.

                                  I'm not sure where I stand on this. I can certainly see both sides of the argument. On the other hand we do live in a very 'rich' area and I can see how it would be very hard to agree to put down a healthy but unrideable horse because the owner 'can't afford it' when their two other 6 figure horses are standing in the stall next to it. I'd say that 80% of his clients (he has an equine only practice) are owners of sport horses that compete on the AA circuit.

                                  These posts are great and a lot of food for thought. Keep them coming.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    This is a tough one. My sister lives in an area where the economy is really bad and the winters are long and cold and I know that its pretty common there to euthanize a horse when the owner runs into trouble. (and rescues are full) I hate the idea but I hate even worse the thought of many starved horses getting confiscated these days.

                                    I have to respect a vet not wanting to euthanize a perfectly healthy horse. However I can't help but wonder if the vet saw a horse that was underfed living in obviously poor conditions with a client who can no longer pay their bills might reconsider, especially if there was no local rescue available to take the horse.

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