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Who is GM?

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  • Frankie Chesler!!! (It finally came back to me)

    And while MB mentioned the golden years on North American riding, what about the last 25 years or so!??? Since GM came on the scene, and enlightened us all, about crest releases, etc??? It seems to me that we've all gone just a little bit downhill, since the 80's.
    LESS HARD WORK, MORE FINE DINING!™
    complicate, obfuscate, prevaricate.

    Comment


    • When did this thread go so askew and when did GM begin to walk on water? I can acknowledge that he has given a lot to the sport but he is certainly not the end all be all of horsemanship. ...maybe salesmanship. As to his book being the basis for all teaching, I can think of a few that are just as good if not better.

      d'Endrody's "Give Your Horse A Chance"..
      Gordon Wright's "Horsemanship & Horsemastership" ( from Gordon's lips to George's ear)
      Waldemar Seunig's "Horsemanship"

      I look more to Bert DeNemethy as the Father of our current style of riding.

      Anyone who was lucky enough to be taught by someone that used the old Cavalry type of horsemanship knows where George got most of his ideas ( except for that blasted crest release )

      Comment


      • Also Madame Butterfly, I guess you haven't spoken to the eventers that had some session with him either? I don't think the overall impression of it was positive. I think many felt that there as a little left to be desired.

        Yes he has many things going to him but so do many other great trainers. I would rather train with Jimmy Wofford or Ralph Hill than GM any day. I find that they are very effective trainers who are known for being "strict" (applies more so to JW) without constantly belittling the rider.

        I am seeing the trend that as the years go on he is being seen less of a god and more as a good trainer. I think THAT is a much healthier view to have of any human. Golliness has allowed for some very inexcusable behavior from him to be excused. I think the golden rule has been forgotten by him and some of his star prodigy. We can argue whether that make you a successful rider but I can tell you that makes you a less than desirable human being.

        MHO-I think GirlNextDoor has been extremely mature and do not think her age should have been brought into this at all. Chronological age has nothing to do with maturity or wisdom.
        Grab mane and kick on!

        http://www.ashleykriegeleventing.com/

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
          GM is a brilliant horseman and teacher. The cornerstone of his teachings is structure. And structure is what is so lacking at the grassroots level of teaching in this country. Having started at the grass roots level myself, I am appalled that instructors would not order their students to read his book. Or, in fact to read parts of his book to them at each lesson. The form that he teaches is impeccable. It is appalling that teachers do not teach this form from the beginning. At least, they should mention it to the students. Granted, it takes time. But to have the knowledge from the beginning is a better beginning. Not only is he a brilliant teacher, but he is an amazing course designer. If you have ever been lucky enough to take a lesson with him, you will be in awe of the courses that he sets up.

          He is a disciplinarian, but he knows that if you intend to ride competitively as a profession, not simply for enjoyment, that you must be exact in everything that you do. This is hard. And for some, it is not important. But these are not people who are riding for a "competitive living." These competitive riders have to be the best of the best.

          GM has trained many of the best riders in the world. And they are winning. And if they are winning, his teaching is surely at the root of it.

          Our helmets are off to you, GM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          GOOD post, Madame Butterfly. GM's book is my riding BIBLE. It stood me in good stead when riding lessons did not mesh with my work schedule. Two things irritate me in discussions about GM. One, is the stupid weight/body type issue which always comes up. The second one, which you touched on regarding showing competitively (A level at least) and riding as a pro. GM is NOT your neighborhood person who has put out a shingle so you (and me) can hop jumps at the local show or ride for pleasure. His ENTIRE focus is on top showing amatuers and professional riders. So for a local level ammy or pleasure rider to take offense when they pay their money to go to his clinic, it's silly. Or to get offended because they've heard him say thus and so and have taken it out of the context of high level riding is also silly. But no discussion of him can seem to avoid these topics. Maybe those of us who like him should just ignore those who do not and try to keep future threads focused on the other parts. Cuz, yeah, it gets silly and boring quickly.
          Freaky Farm Hermit Clique
          Mighty Thoroughbred Clique COMH Page: Tory Relic

          Comment


          • Dancinglawn-You are brillant and hit the nail on the head!

            That is my point exactly. To me good riding is good riding. It doesn't matter what discpline you are in, or it shouldn't.

            Tory Relic- I bring up eventing since Madame Butterfly throw that in as one of his "accomplishments" in training. But I still stand by my top statement. It shouldn't be any different to ride a stadium round or to do a jumper round for which he does train in. I by no means am saying to take Georgie boy out on the cross country course with you for instruction but since he as foxhunted and has acheived as much as he has, it really shouldn't be a foreign idea to him. I am sure he is quite familar with cross country riding especially with all the time he is spending with eventers now. I even think he is coming over to the dark side! I will quote again from PH from August!
            "Even I would ride him over a big, solid cross country fence-and those who know me know that that is no small thing!"

            Wow, the compliments from him keeps on coming!

            What my problem with all of this is not that I really don't believe that George Morris is a great trainer and is quite knowledgeable but this god complex that so many people have. Yes he is good, but there are a few others that are quite as good and, this is going to come as a complete surprise, but he did not invent good riding!!!! It was taught to him as it was taught to you, down the lines, on which he has capitalized on quite nicely. On the seventh day George did not invent proper jumping! And proper jumping is the same across the board. It doesn't matter how you are jumping really.

            If GM is teaching to lower level riders than that is how he should be teaching. If what he teaches should ONLY pertain to those at the upper levels then that is who should attend his clinics. I don't think that is a prerequisite of his clinics. A good trainer can adapt to any level. The two trainers I mentioned early are quite good at that.
            Grab mane and kick on!

            http://www.ashleykriegeleventing.com/

            Comment


            • Great post PiedPiper. I do feel in many ways Jimmy Wofford far surpasses George and he definitely knows how to address people without being abusive or condescending. Jim Wofford is a class act

              Comment


              • If we don't get back to the good ole basics of riding we will continue to see the fall in the ability of our up and coming riders. The crest release was part of it and then with the elimination of many outside courses it has continued. It isn't about being able to count four nice slow, sucked back strides to a verticle just because that is what the course calls for ( forget about what your horse's ability is). It is about having the ability to see the distance that your specific horse should do and knowing how to adjust it and still make it look seamless. It is about riding a horse forward and being in control. It is about having a "broke" horse without drugs , gimmicks and being lounged to death.

                It is about being able to ride in the Hunt field safely and smartly. It is about Horsemanship first and winning second or even third. It is about sportsmanship and knowledge instead of who has the most money and can afford the best horse.

                The American style seems to be dying off and that may be because of many factors. The German and the French seem to be getting it right as well as a few other countries that are up and coming. George is good, yes and has had an immense affect on our riding but we need another Bert DeNemethy, who stuck by the basics and avoided the gimmicks and fads.

                We seem to require "quick fixes" in this country when a lot more hard work ,patience and common sense is what is really required.

                ***edited to say that but of course, this is just my opinion

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Due's Mom:
                  Great post PiedPiper. I do feel in many ways Jimmy Wofford far surpasses George and he definitely knows how to address people without being abusive or condescending. Jim Wofford is a class act <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  We are mixing apples and oranges. Hunt seat is NOT combined training. WHY WOULD an eventer go to George Morris for instruction and expect him to not teach them like he would someone who rides hunters. That's just silly. I wouldn't go to Jimmy Wofford to learn how to ride hunter seat, but if I were an eventer, I'd be honored to ride with him. Next thing you know dressage riders are going to be put out that he doesn't like their saddles.
                  Freaky Farm Hermit Clique
                  Mighty Thoroughbred Clique COMH Page: Tory Relic

                  Comment


                  • Well, I remember when there was no George Morris on the horse scene. I know, it seems hard to believe.

                    I have his book, but most likely will never have the chance to ride in one of his clinics so I'm not too concerned about any rude remarks he might make. If you ride in his clinic and you don't like his remarks, let him know!!!

                    Believe it, or not, George did learn to ride from someone else--hopefully there will be good people to teach riding after George passes on...

                    Like him, or not, you have to give the guy credit--he's his own best advocate! He's making the most of his life and hopefully he's having fun doing it... And people are paying him for it--what's not to like???!!!

                    He has tried to set a standard for riding in this country and I admire him for that; as I get older I can see that there's something positive to be said for standards--it's perfection toward which we ought to all strive, whether we show, or just ride in our own backyards... I believe the single biggest blot on his reputation will be that darn ole crest release fiasco...

                    Like him, or hate him--you just can't ignore him, he seems to be everywhere...
                    "Don't blame Hogg or the other teens. The adults are supposed to know better. If only we could find any." ~Tom Nichols, professor of national security affairs at the Naval War College~

                    Comment


                    • Wow, I never thought I would see the necessity of 6 pages to explain who GM is...

                      He definitely has had an indelible influence on hunters and equitation here in the US.

                      Love him or hate him... but he expresses incredible passion for his profession.

                      Oakleigh
                      Oakleigh Sporthorses Sale Horses

                      Comment


                      • Dues Mom, I beg to disagree. Bert is seen as the father of our training techniques for jumpers used so successfully today, including a lot of lunging and flat work with a heavy emphasis on lower to intermediate dressage. But he didn't really influence the riding style of his riders. They were all pretty established in their own right when they went to Gladstone. He may have refined them some, but George is the one who developed a system for beginner to GP that defined our equitation system and produced some of our greatest riders, who THEN may have had some influence from BErt, but again, more in a training mode for the horses than actual riding lessons. With the possible exception of his infamous riding on the lungeline sessions. George freely admits that he drew on ALL of his instructors, especially Gordon Wright, but he pulled all of these pieces together to develp his own system that includes attention to detail in every facet, and made it a success.

                        And Bert's courses at the '84 Olympics changed the way this country builds courses and set a new standard for course designing.

                        And the Europeans have refined their style unbelivably in the last 30 years by adopting a great deal of the American style. If you have seen the European style all those years ago and compare it to today, you will see this influence quite clearly.
                        Laurie

                        Comment


                        • Yes, Lauriep, the Europeans have taken up the American system..that being said , they are doing it better than we are...why IS that?

                          I didn't mean to get on a soapbox earlier but it just kinda rolled out of me.I see too many shortcuts being taken and I wonder if we are missing the mark entirely now.

                          I don't know that our equitation system should be applauded over all. I see a lot of riders posing up there on a horse that a trainer has "made". I don't find the equitation route to be the way to go in order to produce great riders. I am curious as to how many of the medal finalists have ended up on our touring teams.

                          Comment


                          • Weel said, Dues Mom!! All of these little perching riders make me crazy. They're all riding horses made by their trainers, they can't go into the ring without their trainers holding their hand. (okay, I'm generalizing a bit here, but I'm sure you all get the point.)
                            It seems that most riders today have lost, or not been taught, the ability to think for themselves, and have confidence in their abilities. is it because their abilities are so much weaker than they were 25-30 years ago?
                            LESS HARD WORK, MORE FINE DINING!™
                            complicate, obfuscate, prevaricate.

                            Comment


                            • Oh, but today's equitation riders are a far cry from what was being produced back in George's heyday. And the reasons you cited above about nearly anyone being able to hang out a shingle, losing site of the basics, etc. are a big reason why. But George, who we are discussing here, has never wavered one iota from his system and beliefs. The fact that the judges are rewarding form/function that is not what it once was is sad, but not a reflection on George. His course and results at the Medal finals a couple of years ago show that he still asks the same questions he has always asked, and had a hard time getting them answered correctly!

                              The level of Medal finalists who continue on seems to have gone down, I agree with you. But again, the equitation system has changed, and not for the better...
                              Laurie

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by QueenMother:
                                On the other hand, I hope she doesn't turn into a grown-up groupie, spouting ooy gooey stuff about GM's "humility" and "pride." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                of course you dont, you are her mother

                                but back to the topic at hand...GM laid a foundation of good riding....i rode with a trainer who was one of George's students and is in his HSE book, and when I read the book I can hear her saying his words

                                the foundation he laid is one that is solid and describes true riding

                                is he a God? I dunno-but he sure knows his stuff. Whomever said he was the Simon Cowell of riding was correct---he has helped produce some of the greatest riders with his knowledge and he is old school, where riders didnt get their hands held and trainers were tough as nails, harping and barking. Most, not all, but most trainers these days are softer, simply because of the revolution of two things: political correctness and there are enough trainers out there that if one makes Pookie sad by barking out that her leg is too loose and her release sucks, Mummy will take her money elsewhere to someone who will tell Pookie is a fabulous rider and scream "Politics!" when Pookie doesn't do well at shows.

                                No one likes to hear that they suck, and while its true there are better ways to say it than by saying "You suck," is it not better to know that you do suck and what you need to do to fix it?

                                Where am I going with this? No clue-kind of off on a tangent here-guess I am trying to expplain why its ok for George to be as blunt as he is. Now, I think here is a happy medium between increbible bluntness and sugar coating, and I think those of us who are used to that medium place get wide eyed and astonished at GM's bluntness when we have not been exposed to it.

                                I think others have come along to build upon the the foundations George has laid--we could sit here and argue all day about who is the best trainer in the world----and as someone said, someone taught GM to ride---but he has taken the prinicples and taught others the same, and those people have gone on to be great riders-as they say, the proof is in the pudding
                                Co-founder of White Trash Dressage (WTD)
                                http://www.lulu.com/mavw1971
                                also available on Amazon.com
                                http://www.cafepress.com/wtdressage

                                Comment


                                • Hi Dancing,

                                  You are right! Most riders these days don't think for themselves.....they can't!
                                  Trainers don't WANT customers that are knowledgeable and that can think for themselves. Customers that can think and do for themselves might affect the trainers revenue and LEAVE if they are not being 1) instructed properly 2) being treated kindly and with respect 3) billed accurately.
                                  Think about it - if a customer is kept in the dark and fed bs, and can't handle his or her own horse, it makes it much more difficult to leave.
                                  I personally know trainers that discourage their customers from owning their own horse trailers, from knowing how to walk a course and figure out the strides/distances themselves.
                                  These same trainers are unhappy and uncomfortable if you are friendly with other trainers customers, either at the horse shows or in general.
                                  They don't encourage anyone to become horsemen/horsewomen - these control freaks think it might affect the bottom line.
                                  Think about it.
                                  \"The only reason that evil exists in the world is that good men do nothing\" Robert F. Kennedy via Edmund Burke

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
                                    GM dosen't ONLY train hunters, and some eventers go to him for his show jumping expertise...
                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    I was under the impression that Hunterdon did mostly jumpers now, actually. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that. Certainly the clinics I've seen him teach have seemed more jumper-oriented than hunter-oriented, though any well-trained horse and rider would have had no problem with the exercises. What I got out of the clinics was nothing relevatory; I've had some good trainers along the way, and it seemed more a pulling together of ideas I'd already been imparted with than an epiphany.

                                    I would also add William Steinkraus to the list of highly influential teachers/trainers/riders. If you have not read his book, pick it up.

                                    Comment


                                    • DoubleTwistedWire, I adore Bill Steinkraus
                                      He has been my hero for many years and his book is excellent.

                                      Comment


                                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by QueenMother:
                                        On the other hand, I hope she doesn't turn into a grown-up groupie, spouting ooy gooey stuff about GM's "humility" and "pride." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        of course you dont, you are her mother <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        What was that supposed to mean? rolling eyes and all?

                                        I agree with QueenMother's sentiment, and I'm not even related to them. If you're under the impression that GND or QueenMother were bashing GM, then you couldn't be more wrong. What they have, as do many people out there who actually know GM and has cliniced with him, is a healthy perspective and respect for the man, rather than some groupie devotion.
                                        "fighting stupidity; one step at a time" -- a wise COTHer

                                        Comment


                                        • Due's Mom, we are so on the same level!!! I'll take Bill Steinkraus over GM ANY day!!
                                          LESS HARD WORK, MORE FINE DINING!™
                                          complicate, obfuscate, prevaricate.

                                          Comment

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