A VERY unscientific poll, Bush or Kerry?

[dcm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linus:
How exactly do dissenting views destroy a democracy? Please explain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets look back at what was said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hamptonmeadowfarm:
Since many Bush insiders were becoming disillusioned and were deserting the president, I think we can see the leaking of documents that will expose him and his cronies. But I fear the
fantical followers of the man will turn a blind eye. They have so far, refusing to see the writing on the wall.

Meanwhile we must gather together and fight the Republicans tooth and nail to stop their agenda from destroying this country. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How is this "dissenting"? This is hatred. This is extremism. This sort of "dissenting" is the closest the USA has come to civil war since, well, the Civil War.

Lets look at another:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luvmytrakehnerwb:
Well...I guess I DO live in a nation full of MORONS!! Soo sad...I almost had faith in the American people. Now i'm ashamed to be one....cuz of the big stupid bully thats running our country....Bush is in this for himself. Being president pays him $400,000 a year. As opposed to the saudis who pay him over DOUBLE that ammount. Hmm...and funny how gas prices just rose....If we all don't die in a massive attack on the U.S. cuz of his monkey-ass, maybe...JUST MAYBE next election you will all start to think for yourselves and not from what some spoiled, dumb as sh*t lil rich boy wants you to think. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, as one of those "morons" who can't "think for myself", I think you are freaking nuts.

I have a "dissenting" opinion from Kerry and his supporters, but I do not call him or his wife (although I do not like her and thought she would make a terrible first lady) such hateful names, nor do I disrespect his supporters. These two examples are not "dissenting opinions". They are hateful, mean, and spiteful opinions of people who think they are somehow far superior than others.

Some of you people need to take a chill pill, or sit back and reflect on your fellow man. You liberals are supposed to be the compassionate ones. I see very little of that here. Its very sad.

[dcm]

Oh, and for those who seem to think that Bush is the rich guy with all the rich friends, I suggest you first look into what Kerry's middle initial stands for. Its not Fitzgerald. Second, realize that Kerry is the third richest member of congress in the history of our country. Third, take a look at this website. Open Secrets Check out who the top contributers are, who they support, and how many millions they spent.

Then come back and tell me how rich Bush is.

[Magnolia]

Bush and Kerry are rich. They sure as hell aren't poor.

At any rate, this nation has some issues that can't be solved via compromise - gay marriage, abortion and MANY others. I'd like to see many of those issues turned over to states to decide - allow states to regulate abortions, gay marriage and even provide social services. Let's cut the feds back to Military and International trade. Maybe by leaving domestic policy up to states, we can have a more satisfied population, more cost effective problem solving and more targeted and effcient results.

I know Cheney has spoken in support of the above to some degree.....

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:

Erin, I don't know why No Child Left Behind was underfunded. Do you know for certain that it was all Bush's doing? Or is that from Ted Kennedy's rhetoric? I would honestly like to know. You've provided me with good information before, or I can search on my own later. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As poltroon said, it is certainly not all on Bush's shoulders, but also the Republican Congress.

Here's some info/links courtesy of Google News. And here's a direct link to their search results. I just grabbed a few off the first two pages that seemed to deal with the issue.

From the Independent in the UK:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=578089

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>EDUCATION

What Bush says: Championed education overhaul that raised standards for teachers, schools and students, known as "No Child Left Behind". Under Bush, federal education spending is up 50 per cent.

What Kerry says: Would provide $27bn to "fully fund" No Child Left Behind Act. Proposes $3.2bn plan for high school students to pay their four-year public college tuition if they perform two years of national service.

And the reality: Bush has raised spending but critics say it is not enough. Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy, who worked on education bill, believes Administration sold him short. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the Connection, which appears to be an Alexandria County (VA) local publication:

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/...per=59&cat=104

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>CINDY ANDERSON from PTAC asked about No Child Left Behind.
“I would never vote to reauthorize No Child Left Behind in the manner in which it is currently being implemented,” [U.S. Rep. James] Moran said. “It’s a cruel hoax. Ted Kennedy came over and talked to a handful of us who were agonizing about whether to support the No Child Left Behind Act. He encouraged us to support it because he assured us that he had gotten a commitment from President Bush that, if we accepted the testing and the rigorous standards in the Act, he would adequately support it in his federal budget. We voted for it and the very first budget after it was authorized, the president cut funding by $9 billion from what we were promised and today, it is under funded by $27 billion. You can’t require schools to reach the achievement levels required in that bill without providing them the resources .…” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?041018fa_fact

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In the earliest days of the Administration, it wasn’t clear that Bush would reject a moderate Presidency. In December, 2000, he held a meeting in Austin, with Democrats present, to discuss education reform; he was both charming and knowledgeable, and his visitors came away impressed. Then, not long after his inauguration, Bush held a White House screening of the movie “Thirteen Days,” about the Cuban missile crisis, partly as a way of fostering a warm relationship with Senator Edward Kennedy, of Massachusetts, whose brothers were lionized in the movie, and who is the most important Democratic senator when it comes to education issues. Several Kennedys, including the Senator, attended the screening, and it looked as if a happy across-the-aisle partnership had begun. Both Kennedy and George Miller, of California, who was the crucial Democratic member of the House of Representatives on the subject of education, and who had also been at the Austin meeting in December, decided to support Bush’s big education initiative, No Child Left Behind, which in the spring passed both houses of Congress with overwhelming majorities. (Miller is as unapologetically liberal as Kennedy, and also as gregarious, and therefore was susceptible to the Bush laying on of hands.) It’s a sign of how important a victory on the final bill was for the Administration that on the morning of September 11th Bush was in Florida at an event meant to promote the education bill, and to help nudge the state more firmly into his column in 2004. At the same time, Laura Bush was with Ted Kennedy at the Capitol, where she was to testify before the Senate education committee, also to promote the bill.

In Texas today, the prevailing mood in the political community, and especially among the old Democratic allies of Governor Bush, is one of head-shaking wonderment over where the Bush they knew went. Brutal state-legislative redistricting after the 2000 census left several of Governor Bush’s Democratic allies in existential peril. And the state legislature has spent much of its energy since Bush left for Washington trying to fix what now seem intractable problems in the state education system that somehow didn’t seem so when Bush was running for President. In Washington, Kennedy and Miller are feeling profoundly wronged, and, since the passage of No Child Left Behind, Bush has not tried to build comparable bipartisan support for any domestic initiative. He went from being a landslide-generating politician in Texas to being a toss-up-generating politician nationally, and from being a seeker of the middle ground with Democrats in Texas to being a rightward pusher of the political boundaries in Washington.

By supporting Bush, Kennedy and Miller were doing him a big favor, and taking a risk, because they were going against the natural inclinations of one of the most important interest groups in the Democratic Party, the teachers’ unions; for Kennedy and Miller, supporting No Child Left Behind was what supporting a new tax would be for Bush. They went along because they believed that the bill, by setting tougher national standards for public schools, would help children; and, more to the point, they came away from their talks with Bush believing that he was going to pour new federal funding into the schools. They could tell the unions that they had got a lot more money for education in exchange for the standards and the extensive new testing regime that went with them.

Once the bill passed, there were no more chummy phone calls from Bush or invitations to the White House for Kennedy and Miller, and then, when the next federal budget came out, in January, the amount allotted to No Child Left Behind was ninety million dollars less than Kennedy and Miller felt they had been promised. Subsequent budgets brought the same pattern: no contact with the White House, and funding far below what Bush had indicated he would commit. The Secretary of Education, Rod Paige, has referred to the biggest teachers’ union as a “terrorist organization.” Today, the public-school world is up in arms and Kennedy and Miller have to take heavy, constant fire from their old allies.

I spoke with Miller in Boston during the Democratic National Convention, and he was much angrier than elected politicians usually allow themselves to be on the record. “You fly with your eyes wide open here,” he said. “I knew exactly what I was doing. When a person breaks their word—that’s it. You’re not gonna buy a horse from that guy again. He said it was a thoroughbred.” He went on, “They don’t consult with the nations of the world, and they don’t consult with Congress, especially the Democrats in Congress. They can do it all themselves. They don’t want to take anybody’s advice on anything. It’s the same isolation that got them into trouble in Iraq. They find the basic tenets of democracy—very inconvenient.”

Part of the problem for Miller and Kennedy is the difficulty of communicating their version of what happened, because it entails a broken promise—a promise that was spoken and therefore unenforceable—to increase federal education spending by an even greater amount than it was increasing already. So the Administration can express innocent mystification, in a way that’s hard to refute, over what the Democrats are so upset about. When I interviewed Karen Hughes, Bush’s communications adviser—a woman compared with whom everyone else, even members of the Bush family, is disloyal and off-message—she told the education story as another example of the betrayal of the President by perfidious Washington Democrats.

“The only thing I can say is that you can reach out, but somebody else has to take your hand,” Hughes said, with an air of being terribly disappointed, though not quite disappointed enough for her over-all amiability to be reduced. “And I came to Washington and watched him reach out. And, unfortunately, I don’t think the hand was always returned. For example, he reached out to Senator Ted Kennedy, and worked with Senator Kennedy closely on education reforms. And they were able to pass the law. Now Senator Kennedy criticizes those reforms, saying there’s not enough funding. Well, the dollars have increased by forty-nine per cent under the term of President George Bush. That’s a big increase even for a liberal from Massachusetts!” She laughed merrily. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Notice that Karen Hughes only says how much spending has increased... NOT whether or not it increased as much as Bush promised.

[Linus]

Thanks poltroon.

I'm deeply troubled by the result, and the direction in which I fear our country is going and will continue to go these next four years.

But I'm heartened by the incredible amount of political activism I've seen, and I have faith that this groundswell of frustration can be translated into something useful. Rather than simply insult the president (which is, of course, fun, but rather unproductive), we need to articulate a reasoned and convincing opposition to the policies we disagree with. We need to make use of the many channels available to us as members of a democratic society, knowing that civic duty does not end at the polls.

And trust that this is still a democracy, and it's only 4 years, and yes, we've survived bad presidents before and can again.

[Martie]

Rather than continue in the 'he said/she said' vein - I am really curious - what exactly does everybody think is going to happen in the next 4 years - with the economy, the environment, the middle east, the global economy, the immigration problem, social security, medicare?

here's what I think & why I am afraid -

the economy - I think the stock market will go up for a nice while - but then as oil prices continue to rise due to the worsening middle east issues I think the stock market and the economy in general will fall - considerably. I think the US dollar - already considerably devalued will continue it's devaluation. I think oil prices are going to go up - way up.

the environment - global warming is escalating at an increasingly scary rate - the only sort of good thing about this is that even now the number of 'travel days' in the Artic have been reduced so far (due to the melting of the ice caps, the tundra is too spongy to travel on) that oil drilling in the Artic is probably out of the question. This administration's policies have allowed most US corporations to disregard and ignore the various EPA regulations that were painfully put in place during the Clinton years - I think this trend will continue and that our open spaces, clear skies and clean water and our flora and fauna will continue to disappear.

the middle east - I think that with this administration's foreign policies that the middle east will continue on it's path of jihad and that terrorism will flourish.

the global economy - I think the Asian markets will continue their growth and will soon become the world leaders - leaving the US far behind.

the immigration problem - there seems to be no good solution for this issue - and the more illegal aliens residing in the US - the more poverty and crime will grow.

social security & medicare - if this administration advances it's policies on these two issues, the basic framework of these two will disappear. Americans will be expected to pay into 'personal accounts' for their own retirement and medical savings. I can't see that this will better the majority of Americans - altho' it'll be great for the upper class.

Would a Democratic administration handle any of these issues better than the administration we have just elected? I'm not sure - but, I think we can look back and see the prosperity and global goodwill that abounded during the 8 years of Clinton and the problems and crises during the 4 years of Bush and get a good idea.

This administration appears determined to set a new path for the US - both at home and abroad. I don't have a crystal ball, but it doesn't look promising to me. So much of the rhetoric has been heard before - specifically the rhetoric about the Iraq war - if you read histories of the Greeks and the Spartans you will find almost exact parallels (and it didn't turn out well...)

The other thing that (& it's a biggy) that really disturbs me about this administration is how easily they are disbanding civil rights and the secrecy with which they operate. The abuses in the Iraqi prisons, the abuses at Guantanmo - the American citizens that were held for years with no charges, no access to lawyers, no trials - the secret meetings, the lack of access - these things are not what America is made of - or at least not what America used to be made of. These things scare me a lot.

So - here is one person who voted out of fear - but I voted for Kerry.

Martie

[Linus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linus:
How exactly do dissenting views destroy a democracy? Please explain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets look back at what was said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hamptonmeadowfarm:
Since many Bush insiders were becoming disillusioned and were deserting the president, I think we can see the leaking of documents that will expose him and his cronies. But I fear the
fantical followers of the man will turn a blind eye. They have so far, refusing to see the writing on the wall.

Meanwhile we must gather together and fight the Republicans tooth and nail to stop their agenda from destroying this country. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How is this "dissenting"? This is hatred. This is extremism. This sort of "dissenting" is the closest the USA has come to civil war since, well, the Civil War. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dissent, hatred, extremism ... really just points on a continuum, IMO. What I see in trakehner's message is 1. frustration and 2. a conviction that we should use the *democratic* means available to fight the Bush agenda, but no war drums, I don't think.

Really -- words on an Internet BB leading to Civil War? Yes it's heated but -- we're incapable of heated discussion?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have a "dissenting" opinion from Kerry and his supporters, but I do not call him or his wife (although I do not like her and thought she would make a terrible first lady) such hateful names, nor do I disrespect his supporters. These two examples are not "dissenting opinions". They are hateful, mean, and spiteful opinions of people who think they are somehow far superior than others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And they've been a part of politics since time immemorial. I don't necessarily agree with these kinds of tactics, I can agree they're hateful, but potentially destroying are country? Nah. Our country is stronger than that; it is, presumably, founded on the idea that an open exchange of ideas can be peaceable.

You don't think it can?

Really, this thread is TAME compared to a lot of what I've seen and heard these last couple months. You may not like it, it may offend you, but 1. both parties are guilty, and 2. it doesn't hurt any small animals or children, as far as I can tell. I'm not a big fan of waving the First Amendment flag willy-nilly, that gets real old, but I gotta tell you that I get a little nervous whenever people believe taking personal offense at something is grounds enough for that something to be eradicated off the face of the earth.

If you want to say that this kind of talk is low, I'll back you up 100%. If you want to assert that calling Bush and his followers morons could bring a democracy to its knees or lead us to Civil War, well, you're on your own. I think we're better than that.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Americans will be expected to pay into 'personal accounts' for their own retirement and medical savings. I can't see that this will better the majority of Americans - altho' it'll be great for the upper class.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm far from upper class. His social security plan of privitization and investment should benefit me, and as a healthy person (it is easy to find insurance!), the ability to take a deduction/tax shelter on health care payments is far better than the ability to buy the government's haelth plan and have no deduction.

[Erin]

I just want to say one thing to the Bush supporters.

Please, please, please... PAY ATTENTION to what he does come January.

Not just what he does with regard to Iraq or terrorism. Pay attention domestically. Pat attention to what he does with regard to his appointments. The environment. Civil liberties. Sex education. Prayer in schools. Alternative energy. Endangered species. Open space. Funding for education. After school programs.

Hey, maybe all the liberals will be wrong and he'll be very moderate and centrist. I certainly hope so.

But most people in this country are really not that far apart on basic domestic issues. A majority of the country is at least somewhat pro-choice, even if only in cases of rape or incest. A majority of the country is concerned about the environment. A majority of the country wants to help the less fortunate. A majority of the country (and especially horse people) have friends and neighbors who are gay... and think they're very nice people who deserve protection from discrimination under the law. I would guess that a majority of religious Americans don't want other Americans to feel that any one faith (or the teachings of any one faith) is being pushed upon them.

If the Bush administration or Congress is not respecting what the MAJORITY of Americans want to see, please please please don't let them get away with it. Don't just be happy with your tax cut and assume everything is fine. Please pay attention to what your legislators are doing. If you have Republican senators and representatives and consider yourself to be a moderate, make sure your elected officials KNOW that.

It's a dangerous thing for any one party to have complete control, IMO. The system of checks and balances is a little off whenever that happens... please don't let extremist Republicans push their agenda. I'm fine with tax cuts and pro-business and all that... maybe not my preference, but it's not the end of the world.

But I am worried about the rest. Please pay attention, and don't leave it to the minority party to try to stick up for a moderate agenda.

[Huntertwo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luvmytrakehnerwb:
Well...I guess I DO live in a nation full of MORONS!! Soo sad...I almost had faith in the American people. Now i'm ashamed to be one. Now that Bush is back in...we're all screwed left and right.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Geez, thats funny, I thought the morons were the Kerry supporters.

And if your so damned shamed to be an American, pack your bags and get the heck out!

[BelladonnaLily]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
Bush and Kerry are rich. They sure as hell aren't poor.

At any rate, this nation has some issues that can't be solved via compromise - gay marriage, abortion and MANY others. I'd like to see many of those issues turned over to states to decide - allow states to regulate abortions, gay marriage and even provide social services. Let's cut the feds back to Military and International trade. Maybe by leaving domestic policy up to states, we can have a more satisfied population, more cost effective problem solving and more targeted and effcient results.

I know Cheney has spoken in support of the above to some degree..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, Magnolia. I agree.

[Mary in Area 1]

I am nearly apoplectic over this election. Yes, I voted for Kerry. I truly believe that any truth-seeking person would have to vote for him.

1. There is no question about how the global community feels about this election. If you people who voted for Bush had really done your homework, you would find that nearly the ENTIRE WORLD thinks he is an idiot. (I can give you foreign newspaper quotes if you wish). Re-electing him just plays right into the hands of the terrorists by exposing the US to endless ridicule and anti-American sentiment.

2. Anybody who thinks that this is a situation for only 4 years is naive. Bush will probably get to name up to 4 more Supreme Court justices, and will most likely name a new Chief Justice. This are LIFETIME appointments. Take a moment to think about the most monumental social changes to our society in the last 100 years: were they made by a President or by the Supreme Court? Think of Roe v. Wade. Think of Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka. Ask yourself if we can afford a reign of tyranny against women, minorities, and gays.

3. NPR is reporting that latest estimates are that 100,000 CIVILIAN Iraqis have died in the war. That does not include the Iraqi military, nor does it include all the the American casualties. We lost less than 3,000 people on 9/11. Horrific, I agree, but why the hell are our American souls worth 40 times an Iraqi soul???? Why is it OK for us to become the terrorist???

This is what I fear. This is what keeps me from sleeping.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
Oh, and for those who seem to think that Bush is the rich guy with all the rich friends, I suggest you first look into what Kerry's middle initial stands for. Its not Fitzgerald. Second, realize that Kerry is the third richest member of congress in the history of our country. Third, take a look at this website. http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527i...asp?cycle=2004 Check out who the top contributers are, who they support, and how many millions they spent.

Then come back and tell me how rich Bush is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't care how rich either of them are. Frankly, you damn near have to be rich to be in public office.

I only care that each candidate properly identifies his/her political contributors so that informed voters can keep a watchful eye and know to whom their candidates might be beholden.

BTW, you posted that info before with the same warning to "check out" who the top contributors are. Why, exactly? Who are you concerned about and why?

[Erin]

Oh, and we need to wrap the arguments up, folks. The election is over, and the OT Day forum is going to have to go away.

[JulieMontgomery]

What's wrong with being rich?

[Linus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
2. Anybody who thinks that this is a situation for only 4 years is naive. Bush will probably get to name up to 4 more Supreme Court justices, and will most likely name a new Chief Justice. This are LIFETIME appointments. Take a moment to think about the most monumental social changes to our society in the last 100 years: were they made by a President or by the Supreme Court? Think of Roe v. Wade. Think of Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka. Ask yourself if we can afford a reign of tyranny against women, minorities, and gays. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point taken. But what do you propose we DO about it now? Lose sleep, whine, stamp our feet?

[SLW]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CHJoker:
N(Switzerland) that really values education, pays teachers well, and has an EXTREMELY low poverty rate, the highest <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheeesh, get real. Switzerland is the size of West Virginia- no wonder everyone lives in harmony and there are no homeless on the streets.

[CoolMeadows]

SLW - perhaps you've hit the nail on the head. Maybe this country is too big for one super-government. With the huge division, maybe America will one day be physically split as well. Stranger things have happened.

[SLW]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JulieMontgomery:


_Now, what do you all think that delectable duo, Bill and Hil, are thinking this morning?_ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, ole Hillary has her work cut out for her because of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy". Remember us, the VRWC caused the Monica problem with former President Clinton.

Yup, those were the days when we as Republicans could send young interns into Washington to try and tempt the President.

Yup, I'm a founding member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.

[Erin]

News flash, folks... the only people *I* ever hear talking about Hillary as if she's a viable candidate are Republicans.

Would you guys give us just a tiny bit of credit, please?