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A VERY unscientific poll, Bush or Kerry?

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  • Sorry, Cool Meadows, my intent was not to attack you. I was more attacking an attitude that I have seen often. But how can people that are reaching out to mend the country get anywhere when the response back is : I have all the answers I NEED?

    I find this attitude of "He can't do anything right in my book" destructive. Certainly, GW is NOT perfect. None of us are and no president was ever perfect. But frankly, I was surprised when we invaded Afghanistan and "NOW" was all hateful about GW doing that . Didn't it mean anything that we liberated all those women from horrific oppression?

    I am just asking that when good happens, acknowledge it. We should be critical, but not hateful.

    And the questions that I meant were more philisophical, probing questions that inspire reflection and consideration.

    BTW I was watching Kerry's concession. Class act.
    "I reject your reality and substitute my own" Adam Savage--Mythbusters
    <><

    Comment


    • I voted for Kerry. And I voted against Bush. I have gone over my reasoning plenty. I do agree that democrats need a better message. As a party, we have been fragmented by special interests to the point that the message doesn't hang together anymore.

      I think that a constitutional ammendment banning gay marriage is ridiculous. But, like Kerry, I don't support the idea of gay marriage because I think our society needs to value the nuturing of children. As a society, we don't really support education. We look at children as accessories to our lives. The penalties for molesting or abusing them are weak. It seems not to matter that many children don't have adequate nutrition or health care. The democrats idea of supporting children is more $$ for child care. more $$ for a broken educational system and a public health system. After seeing what an overburden fiasco public education is in my state, I am in no hurry to have a public health care system. I believe children will be protected by having a strong family environment. And I see marriage between parents as the best way to do that. I am not opposed to civil unions to protect the rights of gays. But I think families deserve support from society.

      I have no idea when life begins. I think abortions are tragic. But I recognize that throughout history, women are the ones who carry the burden of an unwanted pregnancy. They are the ones that struggle in poverty with children. They are the ones whose lives are ruined. For every child conceived, a man is involved. With an unwanted pregnancy, even today, men frequently walk away. There is little stigma or societal penalty for it. After all, we all know "boys will be boys", right? Have you ever heard the term "welfare father" or "unwed father". It is an inequitable situation for women. They are unfairly stigmatized. Repubicans preach abstinance. But we all know that "Just say no" doesn't work. There needs to be a real conviction that men who father unwanted children are doing something bad. Until the societies attitudes change about this, I accept abortion. The democratic party has to somehow acknowledge that an abortion is a women's right but it is not a happy thing.

      And for everyone who thinks that Liberals are a bunch of dissatified whiners, consider this; Kerry choose not to put the country through chaos for a day, he truly loves this country. That is my kind of morality. Bush fought tooth and nail for 36 days.
      See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

      Comment


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Invested1:
        Not when he only captured 51% of the votes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        When large voter turnouts traditionally favor the Democrats, then this is a huge, huge confirmation for the Republicans.

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moose:
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
          [Barrack Obama (hope I spelled that right) comes to mind. The first time I heard this young man speak, I asked myself, "Why isn't this guy a Republican? I would consider voting for him myself."
          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          That would be since in every issue discussed, he pretty eloquently established a very Democratic stance, very similar to what Kerry expressed.

          http://www.keyesobama.com/

          His biggest virtue though, imho, he some how approaches issues in a way that doe not divide. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          There is nothing wrong with much of the Democratic stance.

          There is something wrong with a liberal (Kerry) posing as a moderate and being a "say anything-do anything" to get the vote. Kerry came off as a fake to many.

          Comment


          • I just listened to Sen. Kerry's concession speach, it was very well done. (Made me even more sure the wrong man was elected) Reading some of this thread today is heartbreaking. I love this Country and the Constitution that gives it legitimacy. When I was young I had a great teacher, he had us read (at an earlier age than anyother I've ever heard of) some classics "A Tale of Two Cities" was one. But two that were and will always remain guiding lights ... even foundations of life for me were "The Red Badge of Courage" and "A Man Without A Country", both stories of failed and re-born patriotism.

            Please think what you are saying when you renounce your patriotism and love of country. This IS a GREAT Country, it can be the light of the world if we don't forget what we stand for ... Freedom ... not just for Americans but for Mankind. I want to borrow a line from Sen. Kerry's speech; things may not have gone the way we hoped, "but tomorrow we ALL wake up AMERICANS!". God bless America ... God bless the World!
            \"The fool on the hill\"

            Comment


            • Sparkie:
              You said "None of us are and no president was ever perfect. But frankly, I was surprised when we invaded Afghanistan and "NOW" was all hateful about GW doing that . Didn't it mean anything that we liberated all those women from horrific oppression?"

              Um... can you back that statement up? I can't really remember there being a public outcry about that at all. In fact, I believe most of the country was in favor of that.
              Visit us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/ranchopampa or our website at www.ranchopampa.com

              Comment


              • Coolmeadows;was the family funding a jab at me? I really hope not, you don't want to go there.
                Jocker: yes my family is rich, move out of Malawi with a whole 32 pounds to my parents name!I was born in Rome. Moved to CH when my dad lost his job, spent my first 10 yrs in a tiny appartment in Lausanne. My father was lucky and worked hard. We moved to the US when my dad got transfered here. I never said that the crime level was anything like to US (then again it is like comparing apples and oranges) I said the crime rate has changed A TON over the last ten years!
                As for the education, it is a great system (I believe) but I bet you most liberals would not like the idea that you get put in an "terminale a option" if you are in the lower third at a young age, with basically no chance of getting to University. As for the unemployment, great method as well, you have to take anyjob they find you until you find a job of your choice (I aggree with that as well).
                visit us at www.levremont.com

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I want us all to work together, but I do not want my commander in chief denigrated by the media and other political parties. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Let me give you a scenario. Let's say we're both parents and our teenage daughters are friends.

                  Let's say I find out that your 14 year old daughter is having sex with a 36 year old man who snorts cocaine, and I know that you have no idea and that you think your daughter is doing great. Your daughter says she's out with my daughter when she meets this man.

                  Do you want me to tell you your daughter is lying to you, even though it will upset you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Completely different than calling my dtr a moronic idiot who betrayed her country. Different than saying my dtr stole a national election. And different than saying my dtr has an ulterior profit related motive for going to war.

                  Comment


                  • I'm also pretty sure that most Afghanistan/Iraqi women don't consider themselves "free." The chaos created by the ongoing terrorist acts makes women fearful of leaving their home...we may have gotten rid of a leader, but that's not going to change the attitude of thousands of people. Nothing like sneaking around to get groceries, etc., because you may be raped, abducted, or mutilated on the streets.
                    "[I don't like the word] try. To me, it means you plan to fail." --Robby Johnson

                    "All you have to do to succeed is decide to succeed." Jimmy Wofford

                    Comment


                    • I too find it disturbing that people get less time for murdering their wives or children or abusing them than they get for abusing animals (both of which are wrong)

                      I don't think that it is abstinence ONLY training. But the message is definetly wait until you are married. But that is a good thing on a lot of fronts. Disease and pregnancy and emotional hurts. But nobody that I have heard of is saying that no other form of BC should be used, just that this should be the frontline of attack. And btw, the message is working. Teen pregancy have been declining over the past 3 or 4 years. (A lot of teen pregnancy is cultural around here, no amount of sex ed would prevent it. Many young girls WANT to be pregnant.)
                      "I reject your reality and substitute my own" Adam Savage--Mythbusters
                      <><

                      Comment


                      • DCM, Freedom of speach is part of the "Bill of Rights"... part of the Consititution. You may not ... I may not ... like what people say (no matter who or what they say it about)... for myself, I would die for their right to say it.
                        \"The fool on the hill\"

                        Comment


                        • Sorry Sparkie, but I'm not being very clear. When I said (exactly): "I have all the answers I need through research", that is what I meant. I have no questions right now for people here. I might soon, I might not. The point being, the questions I had were answered by facts. I didn't mean for it to come across as being closeminded, I would consider myself far from that, but I'm willing to bet you wouldn't consider yourself closeminded either.

                          In regards to the improvement of women's rights in Afghanistan, the thought is certainly nice, unfortunately not entirely true. This article tells more of the truth, more of what we AREN'T shown and told, more of what we have to search out on our own. I do not trust George Bush, which is why I took it upon myself to investigate facts and rumours regarding both candidates from non-partisan sources.

                          I found this excerpt in the Afghanistan article sad and telling:
                          Her message: Although the Taliban has been driven from power, Afghan women still suffer under fundamentalist persecution--and the United States has not kept its promise of liberation.
                          Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery

                          Comment


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
                            Completely different than calling my dtr a moronic idiot who betrayed her country. Different than saying my dtr stole a national election. And different than saying my dtr has an ulterior profit related motive for going to war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Not everyone who was voting against Bush was saying those things. There are many very legitimate concerns voiced on this thread.

                            I don't recall seeing many people on this thread listing their top three reasons for voting against Bush being that he's a moron, he stole the election, or he had a personal profit motive for going to war.

                            Unfortunately, a lot of people dismissed the legitimate concerns part and parcel with the less-legitimate ones.

                            Comment


                            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparkie:
                              But the message is definetly wait until you are married. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                              Unless of course you are not allowed to get married because you're gay. Then you should just, uh, yeah, .....

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
                                DCM, Freedom of speach is part of the "Bill of Rights"... part of the Consititution. You may not ... I may not ... like what people say (no matter who or what they say it about)... for myself, I would die for their right to say it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                But you see, it is the way things were said. My mother always taught me that if I could not say it nicely, then I need to find another way to do it. In this great country of ours, there is a better way to disagree without denigrating our commander in chief in view of the world. Its like airing our dirty laundry. I don't understand why people cannot understand this. Freedom of speech is priceless. Unless we tone down the rhetoric, we will continue to be divided.

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                  No, no, certainly not. Not the U.S.' fault at all. How should other countries perceive it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  They should perceive it as this country acting in its best interests, and leaving them to act in theirs.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                  rilliant! That couple with the attitude of "it's not our fault we pissed you off" will surely put us in higher standing with the global community. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Yeah, and NOTHING should EVER take precedence over "our standing in the global community."

                                  Comment


                                  • Okay people, let’s think about this without the emotions.

                                    Why do you think nearly 60 million people voted for a man who can hardly put two sentences together? Large turnouts of voters always go in favor of the Democrats. So, what happened here?

                                    Let me ask this: What do Americans do, and have always done, when they are attacked? They rally!

                                    Yes, George W Bush was attacked. He has been targeted by the terrorists. He has been attacked by Europeans who had ulterior motives (oil for food scandal) regarding Iraq. He has been attacked by our own media. He has suffered the most unprecedented attack by the Democrats on a sitting President in American history. The core of the American people have been attacked by the liberal elitist not only here, but also from Europe.

                                    60 million people rallied around George W Bush.

                                    And what is the reaction from many of you? You say those who voted for Bush voted out of fear or ignorance. You are scrambling to figure out how to leave this country and you are convinced we are doomed. Do you not see what is wrong with this? Do you not love your country? I am pretty sure all of you do.

                                    So what should you do differently? You need to find out why you lost. Yes, the Democrat Party lost. And lost big. The American people are for the most part moderately conservative. The Democratic Party has moved too far from the center for them to hold true power in this country. Those that lost need to reach across the aisle and work with those that won. That is where your victory will come from. Learn from the mistakes that were made. Don’t say that those that won made the mistake. That makes you the sore looser.

                                    What else do you need to do? Stay here and work for your ideals. You guys are some of the most intelligent and compassionate people. You cannot win by blaming the other party. You cannot continue to hold an elitist attitude towards those that do not agree with you.

                                    I listened to Kerry’s concession speech. I admire that he gave us a peaceful and quick end to this election. He could have dragged it out. Do you know what I am most disappointed by? That Kerry did not offer to heal the divide, to work with the Republicans. Kerry, as leader of the Democratic Party needed to make that first step, and I wish he would have taken it publicly in his speech.

                                    Bush is on right now, so I will be back....(just warning ya'll )

                                    Comment


                                    • You were lucky to have a Mother that tried to raise you right, DCM. But Freedom of Speech, isn't subject to your approval ... or mine ... or anyones, it's a fundamental right here in the USA.

                                      We have courts to do the judging, why don't you let them? That too could help heal some of the decisiveness.

                                      Myself I am GLAD Sen. Kerry did not offer to work with the "Republicans" (I'm a Republican, remember). Because unless our President changes direction and starts working for solutions to the mess he created in Iraq someone will need to be working toward resolving that mess AND bridging the decisiveness amoungst world powers GWB's Iraq war has instigated. Mr. President has shown little regard for ... anything but his own agenda. If the world is to survive I honestly believe we need our other Government leaders ready to keep him in check.
                                      \"The fool on the hill\"

                                      Comment


                                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Windsor:
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                        No, no, certainly not. Not the U.S.' fault at all. How should other countries perceive it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        They should perceive it as this country acting in its best interests, and leaving them to act in theirs.

                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                        rilliant! That couple with the attitude of "it's not our fault we pissed you off" will surely put us in higher standing with the global community. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        Yeah, and NOTHING should EVER take precedence over "our standing in the global community." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        I disagree that nothing should ever take precedence over our standing in the global community.

                                        I'm going to follow Sparkie's advice here and ask you a question. Why do you believe we invaded Iraq? It must have something to do with our best interests. And other countries were looking out for their best interests. Unfortunately, as we've bulldozed ahead and lost more and more worldwide support, we have found ourselves stretched very thin. The world is not going to rally around us now. I don't want a draft, but it's coming. Are you of the age and type that will be taken? Your kids? Or have your kids or immediate family already put their money where their mouths are and signed up? If so, I want to offer my complete respect for standing up for your country and your beliefs, but my beliefs are different and I don't want anyone I love who opposes the direction our country is headed to be forced into fighting a war based on lies and greed.
                                        Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparkie:
                                          I too find it disturbing that people get less time for murdering their wives or children or abusing them than they get for abusing animals (both of which are wrong)

                                          I don't think that it is abstinence ONLY training. But the message is definetly wait until you are married. But that is a good thing on a lot of fronts. Disease and pregnancy and emotional hurts. But nobody that I have heard of is saying that no other form of BC should be used, just that this should be the frontline of attack. And btw, the message is working. Teen pregancy have been declining over the past 3 or 4 years. (A lot of teen pregnancy is cultural around here, no amount of sex ed would prevent it. Many young girls WANT to be pregnant.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Can you back that up? Yes, teen preg. rate declined from 1992-2000, but there is no current data from the past few years--specifically, the years in which abstinence as birth control was heavily implemented. DO I think abstinence is good? YES. My best friend is down the street as we speak, teaching seventh graders who compete to see who gives the most blow jobs per week. Do I think teaching abstinece only is realistic? NO. Birth Control and condoms should be widely available and taught correctly so that when teens have sex (and they will, I promise you), they will be prepared.
                                          "[I don't like the word] try. To me, it means you plan to fail." --Robby Johnson

                                          "All you have to do to succeed is decide to succeed." Jimmy Wofford

                                          Comment

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