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Need some legal advice re: horse

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  • Need some legal advice re: horse

    Posting under an alter for obvious reasons but will most likely be filing for bankruptcy next month. Have a horse that I am making payments on and would like to return the horse to the seller to alieviate the debt. Horse is in better condition than when I bought it and worth more than the balance due. Seller does not want the horse back. I can not afford to continue to board the horse but cannot sell the horse as there is no clear title. Any suggestions???

  • #2
    Can you simply give the horse back, take a loss on what you paid, and move on? I would not try to make it cost her anything to take the horse back. It does not matter that you added value....

    But you probably need to consult your contract and an attorney.

    Comment


    • #3
      Do you have a sales contract? What does it say about default?
      Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
      Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

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      • #4
        Can you sell the horse & have buyer write 2 checks? One to you & other to old owner for balance due?

        Or can you sell the horse, get payment from buyer & pay the old owner right then the balance due?

        Have you tried speaking with old owner about your situation & that you need to sell the horse? Old owner might be willing to work with you if their involvement is minimal & it means they get their money faster by you selling.
        "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

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        • #5
          Do you have a written contract?

          When you say that the seller doesn't want the horse back, do you mean she is refusing to take it back or what? I would think that she would take the horse knowing that she wasn't going to receive any more payments. But, don't expect any money back. Consider it a lease payment and move on.

          Better call a lawyer.

          Comment


          • #6
            List the horse as an asset and debt when you file for bankruptcy.
            Then the previous owner can take a loss on it.
            I think if you explain to previous owner that you have financial problems, and that you cannot afford to keep the horse, previous owner should be glad to take horse back and not have to return the money you've already paid.
            However, if previous owner is being, uh, not understanding, then previous owner will have to go buy back the horse in bankruptcy court or get in line with your other creditors or have a bankruptcy referee tell her to take the horse back or lose it, if she wants to get any more money out of the horse.

            I personally think it is nice of you to want to give the horse back and take a loss on the transaction. Hope the horse gets a good home eventually and I hope that you get your problems resolved and get back on your feet again.

            The seller should be happy that you are offering to return the horse.

            Comment


            • #7
              Work with the seller - sign an agreement with the seller that you will sell the horse, pay the remainder of what you owe the seller and the seller then agrees to hand over title to the new owner. Let the buyer know where the title will come from.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
                List the horse as an asset and debt when you file for bankruptcy.
                Then the previous owner can take a loss on it.
                I think if you explain to previous owner that you have financial problems, and that you cannot afford to keep the horse, previous owner should be glad to take horse back and not have to return the money you've already paid.
                However, if previous owner is being, uh, not understanding, then previous owner will have to go buy back the horse in bankruptcy court or get in line with your other creditors or have a bankruptcy referee tell her to take the horse back or lose it, if she wants to get any more money out of the horse.

                I personally think it is nice of you to want to give the horse back and take a loss on the transaction. Hope the horse gets a good home eventually and I hope that you get your problems resolved and get back on your feet again.
                Really good advice. Only other suggestion would be to allow someone to essentially assume the loan on the horse. Someone you know or the owner knows and approves of, of course. Written contract a must. Best of luck.
                Fat Cat Farm Sporthorses on Facebook
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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  The problem with trying to sell the horse and satisfy the debt is that it could take me forever and a day to sell him and meanwhile I am paying board that I simply can no longer afford. If I don't get my horse situation under control I will probably be in divorce court too

                  Not expecting anything back and am even willing to ship the horse to her at my own expense....

                  Just spoke with an attorney and she said that we would probably treat it like a vehicle, give notice that I would like to return the "item" and see what the response is.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Seller may not be able to afford the horse right now any more then you can. Keep that in mind. Maybe not that they don't want it back but they cannot take it back.

                    Can you, maybe, find a free lease for it until you can work it out? Also the court will actually be of some help here in figuring out who has the right to do what if you don't have clear title but the seller won't take it back.
                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by alterwarmblood View Post
                      Posting under an alter for obvious reasons but will most likely be filing for bankruptcy next month. Have a horse that I am making payments on and would like to return the horse to the seller to alieviate the debt. Horse is in better condition than when I bought it and worth more than the balance due. Seller does not want the horse back. I can not afford to continue to board the horse but cannot sell the horse as there is no clear title. Any suggestions???
                      Seller may be going through some personal financial issues also.
                      OTTB - Hurricane Denton - Kane - the big dog!
                      Tuggy - RIP 9/12/2016 - Wait for me at the bridge
                      Foster LolaMaria AKA LolaBean (Boxer)

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                      • #12
                        altarwarmblood I sent you a PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Dear OP, I am sorry you are going through this. What a dreadfully difficult time in your life. I think your best option is swallowing hard picking up the phone and taking this head on. Explain to the seller that if you do not return her now that you will have to list the horse as an asset on your BK filing - something that would be better left off TRUST ME ON THIS. No papers = no paper trail = better for the horse TRUST ME ON THIS!

                          You can extend to the owner the gift of donation. That way she has no expenses on the horse and the horse can become the immediate property of a wonderful charity. If you live in the Midwest I can recommend 2 that would be excellent. AND she has a GREAT tax deduction! I am not affiliated with either charity, but I have handled donations for clients in the past and can vouch for them.

                          I wish for you all the very best. I had to go BK 20 years ago. The pain and embarrassment carried with me for many years. Looking back on it now, I painted myself into an intolerable corner. But I did the best I could with all i had available too me and i failed miserably. I learned from my mistakes and grew from it. I always said the only things I got to keep were my family. And it turned out they were all that was really worth saving! I got a clean break - and I sure needed one!

                          You will survive this. It will suck and be very hard. But You will get over it. Cling tightly to your family because after this wild ride is over they are all you got and they are worth it!!! Like Scarlett says"Tomorrow is another day!".

                          (((hugs)))

                          Woody
                          "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by alterwarmblood View Post
                            Posting under an alter for obvious reasons but will most likely be filing for bankruptcy next month. Have a horse that I am making payments on and would like to return the horse to the seller to alieviate the debt. Horse is in better condition than when I bought it and worth more than the balance due. Seller does not want the horse back. I can not afford to continue to board the horse but cannot sell the horse as there is no clear title. Any suggestions???
                            I would suggest talking to a bankruptcy attorney before doing anything with the horse. It's unclear to me what the status of the horse is - are you leasing it? Do you own it?

                            The horse may be considered your asset, and an attempt to get rid of the horse immediately prior to filing for bankruptcy may be viewed by a bankruptcy trustee as a fraudulent conveyance of an asset, which could cause problems for you and for whomever you give or sell the horse to.

                            --
                            Stop Horse Fraud
                            www.equinesurety.org
                            Last edited by equinesurety; Oct. 7, 2009, 09:42 PM. Reason: Fix a typo

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I did ask a BK attorney. Its an unusual situation since the asset is worth nothing yet costs $$$ to keep. Its a secured debt but the creditor will not take it back. It would go back to her or be reaffirmed by you in a BK, but she does not want it back. And it costs money you do not have to keep. He didn't know since once we use the word horse most lawyers go brain numb.

                              If the owner of the horse (the person who you still owe payments to) just wont take the horse back because she cannot afford another mouth to feed either, maybe if you found horse a good free home she would agree to that? Or let you find a charity like Woodland said but she donates the horse?

                              I assume your point in posting is that you do NOT want to horse sold at the local auction to turn it into cash?

                              The only other set of facts I can think of that are similar is a boat in a marina, but even a boat can be more easily sold and wont be harmed in the wrong new owners hands like a horse can.

                              If you are filing BK, then you will have a BK lawyer. He/she might already know what to do. Maybe this is not that unusual a situation at all if you replace the word "horse" with some other asset that is more familiar. It will depend on whether you file a 7 or 13 too

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                              • #16
                                Since the poster hasn't finished paying for the horse and doesn't have 'title', doesn't the person she got it from technically stilll own the horse?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The contract between the parties, written or unwritten, is important in setting the relationship between the parties. The questions are numerous, beginning with the question of title; who is the legal owner of the horse (as opposed to the beneficial owner)?

                                  Trustees hate livestock cases because it means that they have charge of things that eat and waste the assets of the estate. I've seen a couple and generally the trustee will leave the stock in situ and assume the responsibility for the paying the costs. But they will also schedule an early sale (generally by auction) to cut the expenses.

                                  If the orginal seller wants the horse back, and has a lien on it, then they are a secured creditor and can likely get the horse back. Depending upon the numbers, the trustee might well walk away from this asset as it is a drain on the rest of the estate.

                                  In any event the trustee will have the best interests of the estate in mind, not the best interests of the horse. To the trustee the horse is just another chattel (and a difficult one to deal with).

                                  G.
                                  Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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