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Is selling a horse illegal? Bill in CA legislature

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Appsolute View Post
    And how many of those give away kittens and puppies never get spayed or nuetered, and end up reproducing like crazy? At least the shelter controls the population and sterilizes every animal they adopt out.

    Maybe I am not that concerned because I sterilize all my pets and have adopted them all from kill shelters

    With your logic, we should all just stop breeding dogs and cats and let the state do it for us! Shudder.

    Clearly big brother is your very good friend.
    Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s

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    • #22
      Why would spaying or neutering have any reasonable relation to barking or lack of license?

      Comment


      • #23
        Appsolute, there will always be bad dog owners, bad cat owners and really really bad horse owners. So why punish the good owners? Why tax us for the sale of a puppy (that one is coming!) Make breeders have business licenses and all the various crap that goes with it? Do you really think that is going to make Bob down the street run out and get his cat fixed? No he will probably just dump him on someone's farm! Or dump it at the shelter.

        New laws won't suddenly make the "bad owners" good. They will continue to do their thing, breed indiscriminately, let their animals loose to cause havoc, etc. The ethical folks will continue to foot the bill for the dirtbags and suffer the consequences.

        Why won't this bill just die? (we have been fighting for years now) Because the activists are behind this!!!! They want to eliminate your right to own your dogs, spayed or neutered they don't care.

        Equinelaw, that is what I would like to know. So my dog barks, they have her sterilized, she's still gonna bark after you remove her uterus! The bill makes no sense!! Unless you're an activist and then there is one more dog that won't ever breed, then it makes sense.

        As it is many of us don't use our own addresses when filling out show information, or AKC registration. Many use P.O. boxes, business addresses etc. to keep the activists away from our doorsteps.

        Yes people should spay and neuter their non-show dogs and cats and, all service dogs should be exempt. Again I ask why aren't they?? Do you have a reason for that?

        Unfortunately the AKC doesn't allow us to show altered dogs in conformation. This is so that superior bloodlines can be passed on for the betterment of the breed. Ethical breeders have very few litters; and when they do the majority of the pups are sold prior to birth.

        There are bad breeders out there, puppy mills are just one example. Designer dog breeders are another. Breeding mutts for monetary gain is just plain insanity.

        The dog show industry is huge in the United States. We will fight this state by state until we win every battle. And believe me this fight is just beginning. You may feel differently when they truly start to come after your horses.
        Last edited by Brookes; Aug. 28, 2009, 05:41 PM. Reason: answer to equinelaw
        Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

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        • #24
          I hate to jump on the doomsday wagon with this, but it is as scary as it appears. PETA people impersonating animal lovers went to vet clinics and pounds in North Carolina soliciting dogs and cats for placement in loving homes. They were actually euthanizing them in the back of their van and dumping the bodies behind a grocery store in a dumpster-they did this repeatedly until caught. One was a paid PETA staffer and one was a long-term volunteer. PETA still supported them. It's like the old story about the German who said nothing when they came for the Jews because he wasn't Jewish, and he said nothing when they came for the other people because it wasn't his business, then when they came for him there was no one left to speak for him--it will be our turn someday. It's already happening all over the country, and this is just the tip of the iceburg and people better wake up and face the reality of the situation.
          You can't fix stupid-Ron White

          Comment


          • #25
            ---"Quote:
            Originally Posted by Bluey
            No tin foil hat needed, I think it is very clear any more, especially when this fellow was one of those many czars just appointed to oversee all this:

            http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE...&pageId=104820

            Sunstein's animal rights views bother me too, but the position in question is not likely to have anything to do with animal oriented regulations. And actually, he's often described as quite conservative, and being very strong about cost-benefit analysis being applied to regulations:

            http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan.../na-sunstein26
            "---

            Oh, yes, he will have much to say about considerably more than just what he is appointed to regulate.
            How do you think they get to pass anything, if not by bartering favors between all of those in government?

            Governing is a big stakes poker game and the rest of us have to live with the results.
            The worrysome part for those of us that own and use animals is that those that want to abolish our rights to do so are gaining in power very fast and some of us are letting them do it, even helping them.

            Comment


            • #26
              JanM you are right. These types of laws are being fought in I believe 5 states right now.

              We (AKC folks) have been making donations and writing letters like crazy. It was a main topic of conversation at the show this past weekend. Everyone was signing letters to send to their assembly people.

              Some of the other states haven't had amendments like California has. They are strictly mandatory spay and neuter. No exemptions period! I doubt they will pass as such, but you never know. PETA and HSUS has a huge chunk of change behind them, they lobby the government at all levels.

              We can only hope for an outcome that will protect pet ownership nationwide.
              Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

              Comment


              • #27
                It is not just pets, animal agriculture is in their direct sights right now.
                Just read the latest hatchet job in Times magazine, all animal rights propaganda, not balaced at all, with myths and lies, but in print and how many will believe all that without a second thought?
                It reads like an infomercial for animal rights groups.

                In Iowa, 1 in 7 people have jobs in agriculture and supporting industries and half of those are in animal agriculture, some of those directly or serving their horse population.

                Other states are not that far behind, but no one knows that, it is invisible.
                What will our society be like if and when we don't have any more animals?

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by equinelaw View Post
                  Why would spaying or neutering have any reasonable relation to barking or lack of license?
                  There is no doubt that the people writing this bill and advocating for it are trying to use any justification they can to spay and neuter. I'm not in favor of this level of coercion. Higher license fee, fine. I'll even go for "your animals were caught straying N times in 6 months" type measures. But the rest of this is too much.
                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by equinelaw View Post
                    Why would spaying or neutering have any reasonable relation to barking or lack of license?

                    Because the law is intended to be the mechanism by which a special interest group can further its mission without the public being entirely aware of it.

                    And by the time they do become aware that they are deprived of due process.... oops. Too late.

                    The law does not require a person be convicted of a crime in order to be deprived of something or punished.

                    The law requires that two complaints be made.

                    No checks and balances. No ability to confront your accuser. No hearing. No ability to retain counsel or obtain legal advice.

                    An accusation is sufficient - even if that accusation is false or the accuser misinformed. If two folks in gov't agree - that's it.

                    Heck - you have more legal protections if you get a parking ticket.
                    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                    -Rudyard Kipling

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Brookes View Post
                      Poltroon, look at D, leash law violations.

                      Here come the agility owners with their wonderful dogs at the show. Guess what, they strip them of their collars and set them loose to work their course. That would be considered a leash law violation. Dog can be confiscated and or owner fined.

                      Our show dogs are not tagged while at the shows. They are controlled using show leads. There is no option for tags on these. If questioned we would have to pull out the dogs paperwork, tags etc. and still be in violation. If you think they aren't going to hit the shows think again. Their ultimate goal is to stop all dogs shows of any type.
                      Leash laws aren't written like that, at least not anywhere I've been. There are places where off-leash is allowed and places where it is not. A dog show would certainly be a place where it would be allowed. My dog can be off leash on my property or on any other property with permission.

                      I agree, bad law, but I don't think there is any likelihood that it would be enforced in such a way.
                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by JSwan View Post
                        Because the law is intended to be the mechanism by which a special interest group can further its mission without the public being entirely aware of it.

                        And by the time they do become aware that they are deprived of due process.... oops. Too late.

                        The law does not require a person be convicted of a crime in order to be deprived of something or punished.

                        The law requires that two complaints be made.

                        No checks and balances. No ability to confront your accuser. No hearing. No ability to retain counsel or obtain legal advice.

                        An accusation is sufficient - even if that accusation is false or the accuser misinformed. If two folks in gov't agree - that's it.

                        Heck - you have more legal protections if you get a parking ticket.
                        Sounds just like the drug war.
                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Brookes View Post
                          California Senate Bill 250 passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee yesterday. All democrats in favor, all republicans against.
                          Brookes, does that mean it has already passed the State Senate?
                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by poltroon View Post

                            I agree, bad law, but I don't think there is any likelihood that it would be enforced in such a way.
                            It depends.

                            Since there is no exception for working dogs, then the only protection from harassment you'd have would be via an AG Opinion. Otherwise what would happen is that the law could be interpreted or enforced in different ways depending upon the jurisdiction, (and unfortunately, politics).

                            That would be presented as a conflict of laws - if there were laws in potential conflict with this one.

                            Generally such legislation provides a pretty boilerplate exception for working dogs, hunting dogs, K-9, SAR, therapy dogs - something like that.

                            If it doesn't when the bill is submitted - that oversight is VERY quickly remedied.

                            If it isn't, or if such changes are opposed.... that would be a big red flag to me.

                            Another possible explanation which does not require one to wear a tinfoil hat is this.

                            Some poor schmuck in legislative services got stuck writing this bill and called around trying to find people to give him language. Hey Suzie - what's that guys name that you used to date over at HSUS? Hey Barney - you know anyone over at the shelter - I don't know what the word "spay" means.
                            Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                            Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                            -Rudyard Kipling

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                              Sounds just like the drug war.
                              Yes - it's quite fashionable.

                              And about as effective in yielding real results.
                              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                              -Rudyard Kipling

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Appsolute View Post
                                And how many of those give away kittens and puppies never get spayed or nuetered, and end up reproducing like crazy? At least the shelter controls the population and sterilizes every animal they adopt out.

                                Maybe I am not that concerned because I sterilize all my pets and have adopted them all from kill shelters
                                Seems like you are missing the mark here. naturally you are right with the neuter/spay thing, but that is not at the heart of the matter here.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Did y'all bother to READ the actual proposed legislation and analysis linked by Kimberlee? Just asking.

                                  Frankly, I'm all for stopping the sale of puppies and kittens at flea markets -- they already cannot be sold on state fairgrounds -- because that is prime territory for research labs.

                                  There are exemptions in there for dogs and other animals that are at shows/events/competitions. There are exemptions for any competition held at a public facility, and the law would have no bearing on competitions held on **private** grounds.
                                  Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Beezer View Post
                                    Did y'all bother to READ the actual proposed legislation and analysis linked by Kimberlee? Just asking.

                                    Frankly, I'm all for stopping the sale of puppies and kittens at flea markets -- they already cannot be sold on state fairgrounds -- because that is prime territory for research labs.

                                    There are exemptions in there for dogs and other animals that are at shows/events/competitions. There are exemptions for any competition held at a public facility, and the law would have no bearing on competitions held on **private** grounds.

                                    true, but how exact is the legislature?!

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Yes, I did actually read it. I spend a lot of time analyzing legislation and am familiar with the efforts in CA.

                                      I don't have any particular ax to grind and my tinfoil hat is very tarnished so I no longer receive good reception.

                                      But generally it's a pretty poorly written bill and California is a pretty important state in the animal rights folks eyes. (not animal welfare, animal rights aka animal protection).

                                      I'm not opposed to spaying and neutering your pets or other good, common sense legislation that ensures animals are treated well.

                                      But we're all guaranteed certain rights, and the current trend in animal rights is to circumvent those rights through rather curiously worded legislation and regulation.

                                      Some folks notice, some don't. Some don't care because they think they're safe. Politicians should notice - they're paid to.


                                      But you know - maybe we're all going about this the wrong way. Maybe we should just copy the Danish.

                                      A member of the Danish parliament, a veterinarian, proposed this solution.

                                      Kill all the mutts.

                                      http://www.economist.com/world/europ...ry_id=14273944
                                      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                      -Rudyard Kipling

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        JSwan, I don't disagree with a lot of what you just said. But the problem is that, much like the wrongly hyped death panels , there is a lot being bandied about here that just isn't in the bill.

                                        Of course, I'm one of the overwhelming number of people who voted for the chicken initiative, because I actually read it and realized that OMG! it does not actually require every chicken in the state to be turned loose to run riot and crap freely throughout the nation as a way to escape its God-mandated edict to deliver eggs to all humankind and we're all gonna starve to death because eggs will go up two cents!!

                                        Plus, I live here. There ain't no way the state has the time, money or inclination to enforce this bill.
                                        Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Beezer, yes I have read it. I also read the first 5 bills they tried to pass. Zero exemptions. Every time the bill gets rewritten they attempt to put the no exemption clause back in. We keep fighting it tooth and claw.

                                          No the bill has not been passed yet, it is up to the state assembly to do so. The state assembly appropriations committee has passed it on for a vote.

                                          Beezer, this is the tip of our iceberg here in California. This is the first step in their war to statewide mandatory spay and neuter. If this bill passes and doesn't get enforced or work they will come up with something stronger, like they tried to originally get passed. That shows no exemptions for any dogs, show, therapy or service.

                                          We are trying to get this bill canned so we don't have to keep fighting this endless war with the activists. Taxing us on puppy sales is their next little target. I guess they figure we won't breed if we have to pay a tax. Also the licenses for breeders is another kick in the butt we are trying to fight.

                                          We live in a very liberal state that has a ton of support from PETA and HSUS. These two entities are clearly not what the majority of folks believe them to be. They all get warm and fuzzy about them and keep funding their coffers. Those of us who do our homework need to continue to educate others as to the real purpose of PETA and HSUS.

                                          I would like to see some type of legislation that severely fines people that don't license their animals or get rabies shots for them. Also there is no need to have an intact dog unless you are breeding purebreds for show purposes, therapy or service of some type. Not a very popular opinion but it's mine and I stand behind it.

                                          We'll just keep fighting the fight out here and hopefully will get support from other dog people who feel the same way we do. The minute they get a bill like this passed it will embolden them to shoot for more.
                                          Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

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