• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Can someone explain this to me?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by Two Simple View Post
    The video "The Tantrum" is horrible. That poor baby. That is abuse. Absolute and total ABUSE. He is riding a baby and forces the horse down to the ground so many times that the horse just refuses to get back up. So he is on top of the horse kicking him to get him to rise. So then when the horse does get back up, he ends up whipping the horse with a crop trying to get him to go forward. This asshole should be burned at the stake!

    Does anybody know of an animal rights organization in Australia such as the ASPCA that we have here in the states? I want to report this website to whomever I can. This is just unbelievable.



    OMG, I agree. Just when I thought people couldn't come up with any more insane "training" methods, something like this comes up. That video is horrendous. Those poor horses need to be educated not knocked out.

    This guy deserves to be shot. I hope one of these horses hurts him.
    http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Huntertwo View Post
      Very interesting video. IMO I didn't see anything wrong or inhumane about it. Sort of like training a dog who wants to be the Alpha over its owner, I've read when the dog is agressive flip him over on his back (gently) with belly exposed. Sort of like Wolf behavior.
      This is what I'm seeing. I'm not understanding it though...but I do think we'll hear something soon . I hope so anyway.

      We have a seriously dominant husky that had in her young adult life forgotten where she stands in the household pack (and some people would have had her put to sleep for her aggression). One day I saw my husband in the pasture next to the 4 wheeler, on the ground over the dog...I thought he'd run her over...I started out there but by the time I got to them she'd hopped up and started back to the house - with a whole new attitude.

      DH said she kept attacking the other dogs while they were going for their run - he'd warned her, she ignored him, so he got off the 4 wheeler and pinned her on her back on the ground and growled in her face until she pee'd.

      She's been a new dog ever since that day.

      So...I'm interested in what TAP is...and under what circumstances it can be used.

      Comment


      • #43
        Have you seen video of lions bringing down big game by the nose and pulling it around until it flops over? This is natures way of "shutting down" the animal while it is disembowled. The endorphins act as nature's painkillers while the animal is being eaten alive.

        That being said, a horse brought down in this manner is at his most vulnerable and the horse thinks that whatever brought it down is probably going to eat him.

        That is why you see problem horses laid down, it is a last-ditch effort to put the horse into his place and say "I have the power to eat you, but I won't."

        It seems to be more and more common in some of the "natural horsemen" today because they claim it builds trust.

        I have never laid a horse down but I do know of a couple of trainers that have, for the horse that is so dangerous that there was little else to do. It will work for some horses, others it may completely break them down mentally (post traumatic stress disorder in horses?)

        I think it is wrong to do this to an otherwise good horse and this guy seems to do it with every horse that is brought to him. I also think it is wrong to market this (or any laying down) method to the general public because of how traumatized it will make any horse.
        Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
        Bernard M. Baruch

        Comment


        • #44
          HORSES ARE NOT DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TREATED LIKE DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TRAINED LIKE DOGS. DOGS ARE PREDATORS. HORSES ARE PREY.

          Just like Amwrider said - laying a horse down by twisting its head around is what a predator would do to it before killing and eating it. Throwing an agressive predatory dog over on its side or back is COMPLETELY opposite of throwing a prey horse down on its side!

          When is the last time you saw an alpha horse punish another subordinate horse by throwing it down on its back and holding it by the throat? NEVER. Unless it was a stallion about to kill another stallion and they were in a brutal fight to the death. But I bet you've seen this happen in a dog pack, haven't you? Alphas will often put subordinates in their place by pinning them down and threatening them. When my dog was a puppy, he was in a tremendous struggle for power in our house. I reached down to pick up a toy of his and he knocked me over and got on my chest with his snarling teeth at my throat. This is how dogs communicate agression and power to another dog who will not submit.

          This is why you can do it to a dog, but NOT A HORSE. If you think you can train or break a horse like you can a dog, you need a different hobby!
          Last edited by Auventera Two; Dec. 19, 2006, 02:47 PM.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Two Simple View Post
            HORSES ARE NOT DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TREATED LIKE DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TRAINED LIKE DOGS. DOGS ARE PREDATORS. HORSES ARE PREY.

            Just like Amwrider said - laying a horse down by twisting its head around is what a predator would do to it before killing and eating it. Throwing an agressive predatory dog over on its side or back is COMPLETELY opposite of throwing a prey horse down on its side!

            When is the last time you saw an alpha horse punish another subordinate horse by throwing it down on its back and holding it by the throat? NEVER. Unless it was a stallion about to kill another stallion and they were in a brutal fight to the death. But I bet you've seen this happen in a dog pack, haven't you? Alphas will often put subordinates in their place by pinning them down and threatening them. When my dog was a puppy, he was in a tremendous struggle for power in our house. I reached down to pick up a toy of his and he knocked me over and got on my chest with his snarling teeth at my throat. This is how dogs communicate agression and power to another dog who will not submit.

            This is why you can do it to a dog, but NOT A HORSE. If you think you can train or break a horse like you can a dog, you need a different hobby!

            I realize this. But there IS a level of subordination that I am trying to figure out (still trying to figure out what is happening in the video and why...haven't sorted through it yet). I did not mean, by any means that a horse and dog should be treated the same. Sorry that I did imply that with the order of my comment.

            I've run a youngster off, like a mare would. It did get a message across .

            Comment


            • #46
              I think the method has it's place in more extreme cases.

              That being said, my general vibe from watching the videos and browsing his website is not a good one. I get the impression he's an incredibly arrogant, asshole kind of guy. NOT someone who I would ever give my horse to to "train".

              The only other time I've heard of this method was through my old western pleasure trainer. One of his buddies was riding a stallion out on the trail when the stallion started misbehaving. What's was the guy's solution? He brought him down to the ground using a method that sounded similar to this, and castrated him. On the trail. What was even worse was that said wp trainer was impressed by this.

              I have no patience for macho men. There is nothing that makes my blood boil and pisses me off more than these displays of "manliness".
              Roo & Lulu

              Comment


              • #47
                oh lord. Don't tell me Too Simple has found another thread for which to bestow her vast and great knowledge.

                *yawn* Too simple indeed.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Hmm. I don't consider this abuse (and would consider using it on those who are difficult about clipping, especially - if I had hands on instruction on how to do it). The problems I see is...

                  1. It seems to be used as an approach to every problem (WRONG!). There's no way that this should be used on any and every horse.
                  2. I hope people don't try this just by watching a video online or a webpage. Not good, IMO.
                  3. The riding part could be extremely dangerous (What if the horse loses its balance and falls on you? )
                  4. I'm not sure that this would ever work longterm. My assumption of the typical method of throwing a horse down is so that the horse is concious and aware of the throwing-down and that you can be dominant (not to sound hokey). The horse has to *know* that you are the one doing this to him. This is something that is an absolute last resort to my knowledge - for truly bad behavior that has been ruled out from physical causes, especially. I'm not sure this method of endorphin release does anything term, though, is my point. If the horse isn't concious when you reprimand him for the undesireable behavior, how does he learn? He can't, I don't think.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Two Simple View Post
                    HORSES ARE NOT DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TREATED LIKE DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TRAINED LIKE DOGS. DOGS ARE PREDATORS. HORSES ARE PREY.

                    Just like Amwrider said - laying a horse down by twisting its head around is what a predator would do to it before killing and eating it. Throwing an agressive predatory dog over on its side or back is COMPLETELY opposite of throwing a prey horse down on its side!

                    When is the last time you saw an alpha horse punish another subordinate horse by throwing it down on its back and holding it by the throat? NEVER. Unless it was a stallion about to kill another stallion and they were in a brutal fight to the death. But I bet you've seen this happen in a dog pack, haven't you? Alphas will often put subordinates in their place by pinning them down and threatening them. When my dog was a puppy, he was in a tremendous struggle for power in our house. I reached down to pick up a toy of his and he knocked me over and got on my chest with his snarling teeth at my throat. This is how dogs communicate agression and power to another dog who will not submit.

                    This is why you can do it to a dog, but NOT A HORSE. If you think you can train or break a horse like you can a dog, you need a different hobby!
                    I guess you never saw the show on PBS about the Mustang herd (the stallion's name was Cloud, as I recall). Something very similar happened on it as I recall.

                    Humans don't have the strength or ability (although if you've learned to pin your ears I'd love to learn ) to reprimand a horse as a herdmate in the traditional way (kicking, biting, ear pinning, etc).

                    I've come to realize that you don't have very wide experience, TwoSimple. You have never had (obviously) to deal with a horse that truly had a screw loose, despite ideal training and handling, would just as soon kill you as anything. Or had a horse that was so ruined that it took last-resort methods to fix it. As I said in my prior post, using it on all horses is wrong, but to fix issues and as a last resort it seems to be a valid technique. If you haven't had to deal with these kinds of horses (which you obviously haven't), then it's no surprise you don't agree with it.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Has anyone watched the ORIGINAL version of the tantrum (which is NOT by the same person as the Original video) Here it is. I think you are confusing Video Posters.

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OHm7p5NiEs

                      And I agree, Dazed. Too simple... You are a moron. That horse is not being lay down. You blind person. That horse refuses to go forward and is throwing itself down on the ground.

                      Must be an interesting world to live in when you only see what you want to see. . . . Do your lotto numbers come up every single week? Because if I only saw what I wanted to see, you betchya i'd be winning lotto baby!

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        There is a video ("Variations": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfXL_NEXTuM

                        of a girl doing this technique with a horse on long-lines, the handler standing well behind the horse. You can see from it that the position of the neck is what is putting the horse down, not the hand on the whither or tightening the girth.

                        I'd be very curious to see what vet would say about this.

                        BTW: hear is some text describing the technique: http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/index.html

                        I am not advocating this technique for putting a horse down, but there is a less extreme method that can be useful: a 'neck twitch' - if a horse won't stand for a shot, for example. Imagine you are standing on the left side of the horse, facing it's shoulder. Taking the lead line in the right hand and grabbing the halter in the left, pull the head towards you. Grap the horses neck with your right hand (which also has the lead): this keeps the horses neck bent. The head is is not cranked around nearly as far as it is in this guys videos. There should be a foot or two of lead between your right hand and the horses head. I have found this will often make a horse stand still. I never even knew there was a name for this technique until my vet referred to it as a 'neck twitch'. It does not put them down or make them pass out, just makes them stand still.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by A. P. View Post

                          Id be very curious to see what vet would say about this.
                          Me too. Anyone, anyone?

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            ahh the first part of that video is adorable AP, the dark horse when he is layed down, looks so blissed out, he's even nibbling grass! When he gets up he does so calm as you like, ears pricked, eyes bright.

                            Do not have one single problem with Endospink and his methods.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              I have now watched more of the videos and it is my opinion that the guy is an egotistical jerk. I don't think that horse is throwing a tantrum at all. I think what it shows is a horse who has had his "training" technique used on her in the past, hasn't had goods basics for backing and is getting confused and going to the only thing she knows he wants wich is to lay flat out on her side. For god sakes all she needs is a ground person. He sets them up for failure not sucess. Instigates a "fight" by crappy handling and then compromises blood flow to the brain.

                              I'm no wuss when it comes to discipline, mabey this vulcan pinch might have a place with a real "outlaw" but that's not what I'm seeing in any of the vids.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                shakes head..... sure ok.

                                No one is saying HEY EVERYONE! GO OUT AND TRY THIS WITH YOUR HORSES.

                                They are just showing different training techniques.

                                At least endospink doesn't do anything so derrogatory as to STAND on the horse while it's lying down. hmm?

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Thanks for the link, Coup De Des. I have been watching this thread with fascination and that added an excellent new twist. I also happen to agree with you in regards to Endospink. I have seen far, far worse forms of laying horses down than the ones shown in the orignal post.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    I absolutely agree that in a perfect world, a horse who is handled well and whose trust you have earned should not need techniques like this.

                                    However, the world is not perfect.

                                    First, if in fact the technique releases endorphins, the horse is not passing out do to lack of blood, oxygen etc. Endorphines are hormones that the brain secretes which signal 'All is well'. when a mother cat picks it's kittens up by the nape of the neck, they go limp: it's due to endorphins. The same princlple as a lip-twitch. It is not pain that is causing the horse to obey a twitch: the release of endorphins overcomes the 'flight response.

                                    Of course the ideal in handling horses should be to never trigger the flight response... so, as I said in a perfect world these techniques would be unnecessary. But we all know there are times when an animal panics. If you can get that horse to stop panicing before it hurts iteself or someone else, I think it's a good tool to know, even if you hope you never have to use it.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      thank you..

                                      I'm not trying to stir a fight, but I see nothing wrong with Endospink's video's. I think perhaps some of the more vocal posters in here have little experience working with young horses and racehorses at that....

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Coup De Des View Post
                                        thank you..

                                        I'm not trying to stir a fight, but I see nothing wrong with Endospink's video's. I think perhaps some of the more vocal posters in here have little experience working with young horses and racehorses at that....
                                        Agreed.

                                        However, I just can't seem to justify such an extreme method for most horses. Does it have a place? Yes, I would say so...but I think the vast majority of the time, the issue can be resolved with a more back-to-basics approach.

                                        I also can't seem to believe repeatedly lying down and getting up would be too terribly good for a horse's joints, particularly young ones.
                                        Roo & Lulu

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          but no one is saying you NEED to use it on your horse -- or on EVERY horse.

                                          But how many of you have had a young horse, throw themselves down on the ground and refuse to go forward the first time you try to ride it?

                                          Desperate times call for desperate measures, No amount of loving and petting and blowing kisses at this filly was going to resolve the issue - and if the issue hadn't been nipped in the bud immediately - they would have a huge problem on their hands..

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X