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This is a serious how Parelli helped my horse thread. No jokes please.

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  • #61
    A lot of the people that follow Parelli get on my nerves..because those people believe he's god and his methods are the end all be all of horse training. Of course you find that with any trainer.

    -Just a note about the above comment, I know not everybody that follows Parelli is like that.-

    I myself will never use Parelli, I have no need to and can communicate with the horses that I ride/work with, without it.

    I do have a friend that uses Parelli with 2 of her three horses. I respect her highly. She's not pushy about Parelli. She understands that the program doesn't work for everyone and every horse. Her 3rd horse...doesn't respond to the Parelli methods at all.

    She will go far in the horse world as a trainer because she's dedicated and she reads each horse as an individual, instead of assuming they can all be trained one way.
    Do no harm but take no s***
    Owned by Good Lil Train since 2014

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by LostFarmer View Post
      I have read this post and worked really hard at not replying...But. I have a pony gelding that was not taught personal space as a youngster. He would get in my space all the time. I even had a parelli "expert" do the rope wiggle with him. The pony thought it was a game. I finally got a whiffle ball bat and smacked him across the chest when he crowded me. We came to an understanding about life in a hurry.

      I was asked during the whole horse whisperer craze if I whisper to my horses. I responded with yup I whisper, then I ask, then I demand.
      LF

      I haven't read the rest of this thread, but here I have to agree.

      Whiffle bat >>> kohlrabi stick

      Now before you accuse me of horse abuse, the whiffle bat is only for extreme cases-- the barn sour horse, the 3y/o "I'm bigger than you" stage, or any other severe (dangerous) disrespectful behavior. If I was the boss mare in the herd, I'd kick the living daylights out of the offender if he doesn't heed my warnings. Since I'm only a 100-lb human, my physicality is somewhat limited. Gimme a whiffle bat, though, and I can back up some of my "laws" (ie, you will NOT walk on me, you will NOT threaten to rear/spin, and I AM badder than you are!). The plastic bat doesn't hurt much, but the loud whallop is effective.

      Again, I'm not about "dominating" horses. I much prefer to work together, harmoniously. But they are big creatures who may take advantage of you sometimes, and left uncontrolled it could be dangerous.
      “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
      ? Albert Einstein

      ~AJ~

      Comment


      • #63
        I would be very interested in reading the list of all of the horses and or riders competing in any FEI equine sport that Pat Parelli trained BEFORE those horses and riders were competing at the FEI level?

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
          Then they aren't *good* trainers. The operative word here was GOOD. Or PERHAPS you weren't a good learner. Sorrry to be harsh but you know, that is always a possibility! I personally find it useless to place blame at the feet of others, especially if I am writing the check.

          Why did you stumble around for so long? That I cannot say. I always wonder this about people. Why *would* you take lessons and clinics for years and not "learn this stuff" - this stuff meaning, ground work and communications? 40 years is a long time to not realize you're barking up the wrong tree.
          I don't know why this is such a hot button issue for you, but I'll try once more.

          Yes, they were good trainers. As I said, several are names that anyone here would recognize and respect. And I don't think either they nor I thought at the time that I wasn't having a successful experience. It's probably true that if I'd been a better student, I'd have gotten further in this game, but I'm not a complete dolt, either. The idea of doing groundwork or exploring communication from the horse's perspective just never came up.

          Perhaps these concepts were elements of their personal horsemanship and are what made them such awe-inspiring riders. I suspect they just had their own interpretation of it and thought it separate from teaching a rider to improve their dressage, or jump cross-country. It never seemed to occur to them to take a moment to check and see where students were with it before delving into the "fun stuff". Whatever. In all of those "successful" experiences, I didn't get this out of my exposure to them. (I know for a fact that one of them considers much of the horsemanship we're discussing here to be nonsense; that person's interaction with horses is much more dictatorial and human-centered, and yet this person is a successful upper-level eventer and has competed internationally. Another international dressage rider understands it so instinctively that he cannot verbalize it, and doesn't realize what an important missing link it is in his teaching).

          So, while I may have been "wandering" for 40 years, it hasn't been in a total equestrian desert. But having been recently exposed to this aspect of horsemanship, I really do wish it had come up sooner in my formal training. In fact, I recognize elements of it from my carefree childhood riding experiences, and feel it had been taken away from me by some of the formal instruction I've received as an adult. It's a true joy to be rediscovering it.

          I agree that it isn't necessarily within the scope of a show trainer's responsibilities to teach a horse to accept something like sheath cleaning w/o drugs. But wouldn't it be nice if they all fostered *handling* horses in a way that didn't make drugging horses for regular maintenance experiences (shoeing, vet work, and, yes, sheath cleaning) a necessity? The horsemanship that Parelli and others espouse demonstrates that this kind of chemical assistance is a shortcut, yet it's tolerated as common practice. Oh, sure--it's easier to bridge that gap with a calm, sensible Quarter Horse; much more time consuming and requiring a more astute horseman to accomplish the same with an elite athlete. But given how much time and money we put into those elite athletes to get them to the FEI level, why do we tolerate shortcuts in the most basic elements of their education? Because doing the work is boring, and the shortcuts are more convenient? So much for horsemanship.

          I have a friend who imported a talented gelding from Germany, trained to the point of starting FEI level work at the time she bought him. She's now had him for close to 10 years and *still* can't body-clip him without heavy sedation. What kind of "horsemanship" produces a horse with that kind of training, combined with that kind of ground-handling non-skills?

          Sorry, but you will have a difficult time convincing me that I've had the misfortune of being exposed soley to the small, exclusive group of trainers who's riding skills are negated by the absence of consideration of ground-work and equine-centered communication, and are hence not "good" trainers.
          "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

          Spay and neuter. Please.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by LetsRide View Post
            I would be very interested in reading the list of all of the horses and or riders competing in any FEI equine sport that Pat Parelli trained BEFORE those horses and riders were competing at the FEI level?


            You mean with all the hoopla there is NOT one horse Pat Parelli has personally trained that competes in ANY FEI level equestrian event? Not even one FEI reiner? Not even one FEI show jumper? Not even one FEI level dressage horse? No FEI level riders he got there either? Call me flabbergasted!

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by LetsRide View Post
              You mean with all the hoopla there is NOT one horse Pat Parelli has personally trained that competes in ANY FEI level equestrian event? Not even one FEI reiner? Not even one FEI show jumper? Not even one FEI level dressage horse? No FEI level riders he got there either? Call me flabbergasted!

              Not that I know of o.o

              -goes to google it-
              Do no harm but take no s***
              Owned by Good Lil Train since 2014

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by monstrpony View Post
                I don't know why this is such a hot button issue for you, but I'll try once more.

                I think it is because I hate it when people feel that the classical dressage system has failed them. In your case, I would assert that you have every right to have gone seeking somewhere else, because now I remember.. well, see below.

                Yes, they were good trainers. As I said, several are names that anyone here would recognize and respect. And I don't think either they nor I thought at the time that I wasn't having a successful experience. It's probably true that if I'd been a better student, I'd have gotten further in this game, but I'm not a complete dolt, either. The idea of doing groundwork or exploring communication from the horse's perspective just never came up.

                Ah yes. We have actually touched upon this before.. and I think I told you then, and I stand by it now - the people who were on your list of notables, I would not leave my horse with for five minutes. And my opinion is based on direct experience with the two that come to mind. The tack nosebands and stallion beatings in parking lots just leave me cold...

                Perhaps these concepts were elements of their personal horsemanship and are what made them such awe-inspiring riders.

                <snipped for brevity> I think they are, *in spite of it*.

                So, while I may have been "wandering" for 40 years, it hasn't been in a total equestrian desert. But having been recently exposed to this aspect of horsemanship, I really do wish it had come up sooner in my formal training. In fact, I recognize elements of it from my carefree childhood riding experiences, and feel it had been taken away from me by some of the formal instruction I've received as an adult. It's a true joy to be rediscovering it.

                It should have, it should have been part of your entire learning experience. It may also be that as you've matured and changed thru your life, things that did not seem as important to you, now have taken precendence over what seemed to be priority before. I know that if I could go back to some of my previous trainers - knowing what I know now - that my questions would be different! But apparently I had to go through that, to get to here. Hope that makes sense.

                I agree that it isn't necessarily within the scope of a show trainer's responsibilities to teach a horse to accept something like sheath cleaning w/o drugs. But wouldn't it be nice if they all fostered *handling* horses in a way that didn't make drugging horses for regular maintenance experiences (shoeing, vet work, and, yes, sheath cleaning) a necessity? The horsemanship that Parelli and others espouse demonstrates that this kind of chemical assistance is a shortcut, yet it's tolerated as common practice. Oh, sure--it's easier to bridge that gap with a calm, sensible Quarter Horse; much more time consuming and requiring a more astute horseman to accomplish the same with an elite athlete. But given how much time and money we put into those elite athletes to get them to the FEI level, why do we tolerate shortcuts in the most basic elements of their education? Because doing the work is boring, and the shortcuts are more convenient? So much for horsemanship.

                Oh, I think in general this is a two way failure. Many, many owner are no more interested in what the actual reality of "good manners" really means.. they are either oblivious (you know, "it's CUTE when he rubs his head on me"!) or they really don't care about all that, they just want to leg yield <LOL> I can also honestly say, that IME few people really want to KNOW what it takes to learn to ride well.. I have a student who came from a well-known barn in our area and the things she does NOT know are alarming.. the way her horse was 'trained' is alarming.. they assumed she was another pathetic sheep following the herd. Now she is surrounded by information and she's like a sponge, it's fabulous. And she is learning so much, so fast. BUT she is ONE WOMAN out of .. oh, 20 or so?!! And maybe it's just that now she's ready for it?

                Anyway, I say it's a two-way failure, because a lot of trainers are willing to forego the true basics to satisfy their customers desires for tangible "right now" progress (read: lateral work and their horse being "on the bit", a program that sounds "right" (forward! straight!)).. they are unwilling to confront the gravy train because it's paying the bills, or perhaps they see that the person will not change, but will just go somewhere else if they try to insist. And so on it goes.. I remember hearing, in the barn of one of the people mentioned - her telling a student that she needed to read a certain chapter in a certain book and the student snapping back at her "I don't have time to read, that's why I pay you". What came first, the chicken, or the egg? All I know is that student and her two horses in training were not asked to leave.

                I have a friend who imported a talented gelding from Germany, trained to the point of starting FEI level work at the time she bought him. She's now had him for close to 10 years and *still* can't body-clip him without heavy sedation. What kind of "horsemanship" produces a horse with that kind of training, combined with that kind of ground-handling non-skills?

                Well, it's hard to say. Maybe I could body clip him just fine. Is it her? Is it him? Every relationship with a horse is so unique.

                Sorry, but you will have a difficult time convincing me that I've had the misfortune of being exposed soley to the small, exclusive group of trainers who's riding skills are negated by the absence of consideration of ground-work and equine-centered communication, and are hence not "good" trainers.
                Unfortunately I think you have been exposed to a group of big fish in a small pond. I call them good business women.

                I guess in the end I have to say I am glad that you found what you needed, that I am sorry you had to wait for it, and that I understand your point of view better now. Thanks for sharing it.
                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                ---
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Eqtrainer:
                  "Anyway, I say it's a two-way failure, because a lot of trainers are willing to forego the true basics to satisfy their customers desires for tangible "right now" progress (read: lateral work and their horse being "on the bit", a program that sounds "right" (forward! straight!)).. they are unwilling to confront the gravy train because it's paying the bills, or perhaps they see that the person will not change, but will just go somewhere else if they try to insist. And so on it goes.. I remember hearing, in the barn of one of the people mentioned - her telling a student that she needed to read a certain chapter in a certain book and the student snapping back at her "I don't have time to read, that's why I pay you". What came first, the chicken, or the egg? All I know is that student and her two horses in training were not asked to leave."

                  You bring up such good points, EqTrainer. Maybe it is not neccessarily *all* the blame on the trainers *all* the time that people are picking on. With all the discussion and posts and such on people learning to ride and show BEFORE they learn how to be horsepeople b/c they have the money to do so, or are looking to make money, I'm surprised this hasn't been said already (unless I missed something).

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I think as horse people each of us should strive to become our own examples of good horse people and be careful not to place anyone else up too high on a pedestal as someone who we should be like. Learn from as many people and horses as you can, take in everything that works for you, and learn from everything that doesn't work. Keep an open mind, never allow yourself to believe that you don't have anything more to learn. Take every opportunity to listen to what other people have to say, and observe how they do things, even when what you are seeing or hearing seems wrong, you may still glean some item of information that you didn't already know, or help reinforce the validity of that which you already held to be true.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      EqTrainer

                      Definitely a two-way failure. I had thoughts of what George Morris has been saying for ages, while I was writing that. Perhaps it's just commercialism at its best; the almighty dollar and immediate gratification have take over and left horsemanship behind all the way around.

                      Yes, I'm confident that my own maturity is a big factor here. But I also don't recall being offered the information and passing it up, either. I don't recall the specific issues that you mention, but would agree that I wouldn't put a horse with any of those people today. So I guess on some level, I agree about how "good" they really are, and it's the commercialism that keeps their names up in lights.

                      I don't feel I've abandoned dressage, regardless of what saddle and bridle I ride with today; I'm just careful about how I define it, and try to distinguish between dressage and Dressage, if you get my drift. The big fish practice Dressage. Anyhow, my experience "away" from it has improved my understanding of it, without doubt. I watched a lesson yesterday, given by one of the few instructors that I still respect. The lesson was with a relative beginner who was lucky enough to find a wonderful older gelding who is making his re-rider experience just about as good as it can be, and the lesson yesterday was among the first attempts to introduce him to getting the horse legitimately round. It was fascinating how the words had completely different meaning to me now, in terms of the use and quality of the contact (the emphasis of the instruction this day was on the contact; the instructor was following with a long whip to take care of the forward, and was very explicit that the instruction was being done in parts for clarity and focus, but must ultimately be put together into a whole--that god for wonderful older geldings). Yes, a lot of what I heard this time has to do with my maturity, but if the basic horsemanship is what's allowed me to see these things more clearly (and correctly), then it has value no matter what one is teaching or being taught.

                      Which is why, in particular, I take issue with dressage people who believe they have the corner on the market and diss all horsemanship that is being done outside of their "arena" as being entirely useless, silly or counter-productive. There are almost as many "flavors" of horsemanship as there are of dressage/Dressage.
                      "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                      Spay and neuter. Please.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        No, not at all....but, they have admited to taking their horses to a higher level

                        [QUOTE=LetsRide;2067895][QUOTE=Horsecrazy27;2067685]
                        Your comment about why a PP hasn't made it to higher levels of H/J---what about the Olympic Riders the "O'conners?



                        You believe that Pat Parelli trained David and Karen BEFORE they were riding/competing/winning at an international level?

                        No, I didn't say that.....they currently use it and have have accomplished more with their horses---either at home or on a personal basis and from the video's I have seen with them and PP, they are excited about the program.

                        I feel like as horse people we thrive on learning--- don't we? Because in the horse world, as soon as you think you know EVERYTHING, horses prove to you that you don't know everything. For myself, I like to see how others do things----as I said before, what works for one horse, may not work for another and if you have seen something/heard something that someone else tried that worked---why not try it or expose yourself to new experiances??????


                        I'm so confused at why people don't want to learn new things????????

                        So, you don't like the hype, the way he talks----but, he has something to offer----if you don't think so----then your basically discrediting his many years as a horse person. To me, someone who has been training horses (no matter what style) for 50+ years, been exposed to 100's of trainers and thousands of horses is going to have some useful information somewhere. I'm sure he has had his hands on more horses than I in his years is 20 + more years than my 30.
                        *Better to have loved than to have never loved at all.*
                        ALWAYS Blessings NEVER losses.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Grand Prix or what ever

                          I consider PP as a tool......... not has a sure fire way to get to the Olympics????? Why are some people even talking about that??????? It is a tool, to improve your horsemanship and abilities..... Some naturally have this, others have to learn.....the games are to help people learn to do this. If you naturally have the "gift", don't put it down for others who don't naturally have the gift to have this communication on their own.
                          *Better to have loved than to have never loved at all.*
                          ALWAYS Blessings NEVER losses.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            mnstrypony - I know where you are coming from. I was out of horses for 20 years before I got Ted - off the track, undeveloped, so much baggage we had to pay a porter to haul it all. And I certainly came with my own packed bags as well.

                            And I tried very hard to do what I thought was "right." And some things just didn't sit well. So I came to a point where I knew there were gaps, I knew there was..."more," without any real clue of how to go about obtaining the help.

                            I count myself so incredibly fortunate that I am at the barn I am at now. My lessons are very different from lessons I've had elsewhere - there is almost always a ground component - some days I don't ride. My eye has been educated - she is the first person who carefully coached me to a better understanding of movement and fitness. What a concept to realize that self carriage extended to simply walking with them on a lead rope and asking for a halt.

                            Not many people in the area know about her, and many of those that do (at least in the dressage community), dismiss her. Before I went to this barn, a well meaning acquaintance told me, "I have a friend who rides with her, all she does is go around in circles, and she can't even do that well."

                            But oh, have my eyes been opened. And I have come to realize how much I can learn, how much better a horsewoman I can become. And the proof is in Ted.

                            So I don't need a carrot stick or stickers in the saavy book. I have a shorter balanced whip for riding and a longer one for in hand and long reining. I have a surcingle. I have side reins. And my saddle and Sprenger snaffle. And with these tools, with my trainer's help, we are making significant progress.

                            I can tell you right off the bat, playing with a carrot stick is not going to help you make the connection between your body movements, your horse, and your riding. You need someone who understands the classical concepts of how to get there - whether they be dressage, Western, whatever.
                            www.specialhorses.org
                            a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Yeah, like the PP's & OC's are still the best of buds. The song line, "I ran, I ran so far away," sort of comes to mind... *cough cough*

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                [QUOTE=Horsecrazy27;2069254][QUOTE=LetsRide;2067895][QUOTE=Horsecrazy27;2067685]
                                Your comment about why a PP hasn't made it to higher levels of H/J---what about the Olympic Riders the "O'conners?


                                No, I didn't say that.....they currently use it and have have accomplished more with their horses---either at home or on a personal basis and from the video's I have seen with them and PP, they are excited about the program.

                                QUOTE]


                                What exactly did they accomplish that you write was 'more with their horses' during their association with Parelli in those videos you watched?

                                The Parelli's used the O'Connor's as another marketing hype tool but it was it seems to have been very short lived (on the O'Connors part). Of course I am sure the O'Connors were paid quite well! They were promoting doing several tours and they held a few very expensive clinics together. As far as I recall it seemed to end there. I do not think Karen and David are now associated with the Parelli program in ANY way (correct me if I am wrong). So, they made a video back then that the Parelli's are still selling?

                                You have got to realize that when celebrities (in any field) are paid really big bucks to endorse ANY product or ANY company, that their sponsors might expect them to express a little enthusiasm about the product or company? Honestly, if the O'Connors thought that the whole Parelli concept is truly so great; then why are they no longer associated with that company? Why was their association so short lived? Inquiring minds honestly want to know?

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  I would be very interested in reading the list of all of the horses and or riders competing in any FEI equine sport that Pat Parelli trained BEFORE those horses and riders were competing at the FEI level?
                                  I don't think there are any - so what? I don't think anyone advocates going to the Parellis to get to the Olympics. However, most of us aren't going to the Olympics regardless of who we train with - but many of us, who don't have the luxury of an army of grooms to deal with all the day to day stuff our horses require, *do* need help in teaching our horses some of the more mundane things like loading on a trailer, standing quietly while tied, standing quietly for the farrier/vet/dentist, being respectful of our personal space, etc, etc.

                                  I don't think any amount of dressage or jumping lessons will help in those areas, but a little bit of correct groundwork sure will. I don't think it matters whether instruction in this area is from the Parellis or Clinton Anderson or any of the other NH guys, but I do think it is an area where the English riding disciplines fall rather short. I suspect this has to do with most of the people who wrote the texts on Dressage and Jumping having access to the aforementioned army of grooms, which were (and in many stables still are) considered to be rather expendable - so horses didn't need to be as safe as possible on the ground, and many still aren't.

                                  Witness the poster who said that many horses can't be trained to permit the cleaning of their sheath even after years of work! I don't doubt her, it can be very hard to convince a horse who has got away with intimidating humans on the ground for years to change his ways. But the fact is, being calm and comfortable while having *every* part of their body handled is something a young horse can, and should, learn before the saddle ever goes on.

                                  I think there is a real place for people like the Parellis in helping those of us who either try to raise young horses so there aren't gaping holes in their basic manners, or else try to retrain older horses to address the gaping holes that are there in spite of their under saddle work.

                                  I'm not going to the Olympics, neither is my horse - but *anybody* can touch him anywhere, he will stand quietly while someone sticks needles in him (very handy just last week, when he required penicillin shots for an infection - don't think the barn owner would have been half so willing to do some of those for me if he required three strong men and a twitch to get the needle in), he'll walk on and off a trailer quietly, come when called, stick his head in the bridle and grab the bit if it's held anywhere within his reach, stand at the mounting block for however long it takes someone to scramble up (handy when giving the odd elderly or handicapped person pony rides), let you worm him while loose in the field, etc. etc. None of those things get rewarded with pretty ribbons, but they sure make his and my day to day life easier.

                                  I'm not a Parelli groupie, and it hasn't been entirely Parelli stuff that has got him to this point, but I have used some of the 7 games among other things and found them useful.

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                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Chanter View Post
                                    Yeah, like the PP's & OC's are still the best of buds. The song line, "I ran, I ran so far away," sort of comes to mind... *cough cough*

                                    Chanter

                                    Do you happen to know exactly how fast the O'Connors 'ran'? Do you know if they had to recover with the help of a ten-step-recovery-program? If so, is the O'Connor recovery program currently available in a video series? Or?

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                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Horsecrazy27 View Post
                                      I consider PP as a tool......... not has a sure fire way to get to the Olympics????? Why are some people even talking about that???????
                                      I just figured that I would ask seeing as how people on here are saying that the classical methods of training don't work. Seriously, if PP is the genius trainer that everyone thinks he is than why aren't there any PP trained horses competing on the higher levels?

                                      I measure a trainer by their success - not by how popular they are.

                                      Oh, and P.S., the O'Conners were round penning their horses long before anybody had ever heard of PP.
                                      "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                                      -George Morris

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                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                                        I just figured that I would ask seeing as how people on here are saying that the classical methods of training don't work. Seriously, if PP is the genius trainer that everyone thinks he is than why aren't there any PP trained horses competing on the higher levels?

                                        I measure a trainer by their success - not by how popular they are.

                                        Oh, and P.S., the O'Conners were round penning their horses long before anybody had ever heard of PP.

                                        yeah, but were the o'connors using the PICNIC TABLE??????? ( i heard a rumor that pat and linda were doing it under the picnic table with a kohlrabi stick, did you hear that one?)
                                        Somewhere in the world, Jason Miraz is Goodling himself and wondering why "the chronicle of the horse" is a top hit. CaitlinAndTheBay

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                                        • #80
                                          OM Gosh

                                          Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                                          I just figured that I would ask seeing as how people on here are saying that the classical methods of training don't work. Seriously, if PP is the genius trainer that everyone thinks he is than why aren't there any PP trained horses competing on the higher levels?

                                          I measure a trainer by their success - not by how popular they are.

                                          Oh, and P.S., the O'Conners were round penning their horses long before anybody had ever heard of PP.
                                          First of all "Success" has a different definition depending on who your talking to. To MOST people, having a safe experiance with thier horse, an ultra bonding experiance or finally getting through to a horse---IS SUCCESS. Are all horses made to be dressage grand prix horses? Or Grand Prix Jumpers Or reiners? No---and niether are all riders. Between the 2 barns that I'm at....over 150 horses between the 2......only 30 of those horses are being trained at a semi serious level. Like me and just about everyone else I know---they use a VARIETY of tools....probably also like me from a variety of people they have read about/schooled with/talked to/heard of and trained with.

                                          I'm NOT saying that Parelli is GOD!??!!!!!!! No---- I would never think that or spread that-----that is rediculous. No body on earth is as far as I'm concerned is. Am I saying that Parelli is the only way? NO
                                          Did I say---or does PP say, do this and you will be in the Olympics next year???????? NO
                                          In my opinion most of his training is tools...... not teaching dressage.... or teaching reining .... or teaching eventing..... or teaching H/J ....... or teaching Western Pleasure...... I have never seen that advertised or heard him preach that. He is there to hopefully help things get better by teaching some of the tools that he has learned over the years--stuff that worked for him---or things that he learned from others!!
                                          Did I say that everyone should do just PP, that all other methods suck, that dressage is for loosers, that jumping with out a helmet is groovey!!! That PP is the only one that can lunge a horse? AND that is all Parelli does? (NOT) I know so many trainers that are successful here that use SOME of his tools.....with young horses---or beginner riders.

                                          So, why do you all think that I'm saying HE is the only way???????????? Because I support some of his training ideas/methods/thoughts? I'm soooooooo confused?????? Why are you all judging all these people??????????? Have you had over 40 years of experiance with millions of people and thousands of thousands of horses? To me that is a great opportunity to learn from all kinds of people and horses....every horse has a lesson to teach us---as well as people.

                                          Okay, here are my thoughts.

                                          1. PP has been a horseman for over 40 years, has had contact or trained by many other horseman that have been around horses a lot longer than his 40 years---schooling in many areas of horsemanship, PP has had/owned/worked with/been wrote about thousands of thousands of horses. I'm sorry, but anyone who has that much hands on with so many horses over the years and been able to work with so many great trainers-----he has to have some good points to pass on. I have owned/bred/schooled around 100 horses and I still WANT to learn and will never learn it all. I don't know it all and never will. I like to watch and appriciate other horse people.....even when they drive me nuts----I still can probably pick up something useful out of knowing them.

                                          So, what I'm getting from all these negative posters is that there is NOTHING that they could benefit from PP....nothing he could say, do, share, that could help them in some way. To me that is really really sad. So, in YOUR opinion it is so wrong for me to think that I don't know everything from being around horses for 30 years? To you it is a terrible thing to still be humble and open to other horse peoples ideas. God forbid if I ever turn into one of those know it alls that no one likes.

                                          2. The Oconners, be it by false advertising--it sure seemed to me like they really liked what PP was saying/teaching....so, they I guess are liars and false advertisers and according to you didn't grab one tool from the PP. But, they sure had me convienced that they were picking up some useful tools as they were riding their horses over jumps and giving pointers back to PP who was also jumping. It was a lot of fun to watch and see their personalities. So, if that was all a cover up and way to earn extra cash....then too bad for them. That wouldn't show much charactor in my book. I choose NOT to believe that that is how the Oconners are. I choose to believe in what I saw on the tape....they seemed like they were good people sharing ideas back and forth on horses and riding.

                                          3. What/who is saying classical methods don't work??????? Did I say that I don't use classical methods? NO!! I have been riding under instruction since the age of 11 and I'm 36. I have had some of the best trainers in the state and have loved every minute. I have taken clinics and audited MANY more. Some people agree with---others not, but I have ALWAYS been able to take something home to try and benefit from every single horse person I have met. I have trained one of my own horses --with the help of a dressage instructor/clinics/friends/higher level riders to 4th level----this same horse I would trail ride, track mountian lions with, drive, team pin, he did low level eventing, and low level h/j-----BEFORE I ever even heard of Parelli. My horses are well rounded--- I believe it is because I am well rounded. I think just doing dressage (IMHO--for my own personal horses) will burn them out ----I try and keep their lives fun and interesting. My horses are super happy, kind and have the desire to learn everytime I ride them.

                                          I'm not snooty and I do not put down things that others enjoy or learn from?????? Who are you all to judge those who seek help in many avenues????? (not directed to all, but the ones who seem to judge every single sentence that I type--or that anyone else says about Parelli) So, because I did a clinic with Jane Savoy---are you going to disc her to? Her methods---some of her riding techniques are different than the "classical"...so, is she going to get rocks thrown at her too? I would hope not, because she is a kind beautiful woman who obviously loves horses and loves to teach. She had some great pointers and it shouldn't matter what the persons name is...if someone post on here about them learning something----it should be not be down graded or judged because of who they went to or learned from.

                                          I find this strange that ADULTS can't support each other. I thought we all had a common love of horses!!!!!! I know I got into horses because they are a constant challange---a constant learning experiance. So, knowing that there is so much to learn and no one knows everything to know about horses----- NO ONE!! So, why wouldn't you be open enough to allow yourself to learn from a variety of people? Would you shut off a learning mode when you talk to a cowboy who is 90 years old, 4 th generation rancher, just because he doesn't do dressage????????? I would ask so many questions on the history, home remedies, stories????

                                          I'm sorry, but this has really upset me and confused me. I don't understand people----it seems that in this world everyone wants to focus on bad things and seem to feed off negaitive energy. Instead of finding the good in things, people search with a microscope to find something bad....then they go on and on----enjoying every moment of talking about the bad??????? SO wierd. We should be happy to talk about happy things, not let the happy things, make us jealous and resentful. Sorry to the original poster who was posting her accomplishments----- "you go girl"!! Keep up the good work and positive thoughs.

                                          Oh well..... can't change the world. But, I can stop paying attention to negative posts.
                                          *Better to have loved than to have never loved at all.*
                                          ALWAYS Blessings NEVER losses.

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