This is a serious how Parelli helped my horse thread. No jokes please.

[Horsecrazy27]

certified... and horse sense lacking people

To the OP, if you found a system that works for you, great. Parelli probably has helped a bunch of people. However, there are definitely people who are absolutely clueless about horse "sense", buy the book, buy the system, work through it and who knows if they're "certified." I have seen people "try" to use it but b/c they don't understand when to take pressure off, etc, etc, the horse is still freaked out and fearful of that carrot stick being waved in his face..b/c he still doesn't understand what he is being asked.
Parelli is not the only method...but it seems to be a method that is SO marketed that any fool can go out, buy the system, and think he knows how to train horses.

And yes, totally agree that many BNT's, and NNT's, have no understanding of horses and totally skip the groundwork part. They don't relate to the horses nor do they take the time to understand them..other than how to get them to do certain things under saddle. They're just like any of those "natural horsemanship" trainers...it's just common sense..err, horse sense!

And as a side note..for any people that "bend" their horses head to their knee (and yes, I did a parelli clinic), apparently you haven't had a horse take off with you w/ their neck whipped around to the side. Hasn't happened to me, but I've heard stories.

Probably going to get flamed, but I'm popping some popcorn at the moment.

AGAIN, not directing at you Tillie...just am talking and expressing. Which while I sit here soaking in my Vicadan (MAJOR root Canal today)...I'm sharing my long thoughts!


I think you have to go to his ranch and go through courses with him to be certified.... you can upgrade your "string" for your carrot stick by going through the course, sending a video in--and they score the video---if you pass, you get the next color string....(levels)

I think if you watch PP, you see that he is constantly trying to get people to understand horses. (and trying to talk in a manner in which those who have little horse sense can understand) To teach people to watch horses and learn their body language and watch your own. To be consistant, confident and patient. Also, it is talked over and over again---"Saftey"...do you know how many times they say that? LOL....every other sentence. They want you to THINk before you do anything----constantly knowing where your horse is and by looking at them, know what they are thinking. It is for SURE not intended to read the book and become certified--it is intended for you do get out, do the games-- (which is establishing a communicatioin) and then sending this to him or his crew to evaluate. Your also supposed to keep a daily journal of accomplisments, the amount of time you spent "playing with your horse", the goals for the next day, challenges....this builds a realistic approach to your goals and what you have accomplished.

No matter what is said about him, he is a kind man--both towards humans and animals---may not have always been (self admitted by himself)..but, as he grew---he got wiser. He is just trying to share that-----They are excited to help people. Have you seen the videos of the handicapped people doing amazing things with their horses? This wheel chair bound lady was out in a 100 acre or more field, trotting next to her motorized wheel chair, going where she pointed, on and on....then finally kneeling to the ground while others helped her get on---holding on to a sir single (spelling) and it was just amazing----crying amazing. There is another who was using a golf cart had a mare and foal.....both the mare and foal doing all the games remarkably in unison.....these people have occomplished the near impossible, because of PP. Giving them happiness that they might have never known.

As I said...I don't agree with some of the under saddle stuff---but, I still watch it and think about what they say, sometimes I try things-----but, I'm kind of set in my ways about that. But, I'm not closed to others opinions. I have been around horses long enough to know that there is no "one way" for every horse---you HAVE to be flexible in this "hobby", Career" and passion--if you want to have a successful happy life with any horse. I watch just about anyone I see on RFD---even the roper guys....I try to find something to learn--even if it is to NOT do something.

I was in the SAVVY group and received a dvd every month---I learned a lot---about the man PP is--with his handi capped son, the love he has for those who are less fortunate than many of us and for kids. To me he makes sense...and his kind heart makes me over look some of the hokey things he does and say.

I enjoy Clinton, and the others on the RFD channels....I'm so glad we all finally have a channel to watch our horsey shows.

BUT, I'm a Horse Crazy person---as I have said before, I just plain like horses and how athletic they are----they are brilliant and reselant (spelling) to our mistakes so many other things that we have put them through while we have domesticated them.

Anyway.....whew. that was long!! LOL!

.

[SaturdayNightLive]

Well, just MHO, but I think that Parelli, Roberts, and the rest of them are complete idiots. That whole flick-it-at-'em rope nonsense just pushes me over the edge. ...or maybe it's the legions of followers who insist that anybody not doing Parelli is abusive and doesn't know how to communicate with their horse. It doesn't take a special stick with a level 8 hot pink string attached to teach good ground manners and I resent that fact that all of you Parelli supporters insist that ALL show horses have terrible ground manners and are complete monsters to deal with. I'm sorry, but my 4 year old hunter is better schooled that just about any Parelli trained horse I have ever seen. If Parelli is such a genius horse trainer than how come not a single Parelli trained horse has ever reached the top in H/J or dressage competition?

Yes, I am making a lot of generalizations here - but I'm certainly not the only one. And no, this is not directed at those who understand that there are other methods out there. It's more directed at those of you who continue to insist that all H/J and Dressage people are abusive.

[LostFarmer]

I have read this post and worked really hard at not replying...But. I have a pony gelding that was not taught personal space as a youngster. He would get in my space all the time. I even had a parelli "expert" do the rope wiggle with him. The pony thought it was a game. I finally got a whiffle ball bat and smacked him across the chest when he crowded me. We came to an understanding about life in a hurry.

I was asked during the whole horse whisperer craze if I whisper to my horses. I responded with yup I whisper, then I ask, then I demand.

As a side note, after I got this gelding behaving well on the ground the Parelli expert came back and was boasting on how well he behaved after her training. She couldn't believe that he was such a gentleman on the ground. He is still a keg of dynamite in harness and under saddle. But, his ground manners are nearly perfect.

LF

[CANTERSoIL]

(added after - this turned into a darn BOOK, advanced apologies to those who actually wade through the entire thing.... )


Hmmm... well, I'm glad to see a somewhat positive thread with "The P Word" in the title.

Keeping in mind that I've never seen any of the "marketing" so often mentioned here, and wouldn't know Parelli himself if he walked past me on the street, here's my experience with the methods (not the marketing, not the man).

Having had NO experience with "Natural" horsemanship, or flickatation or whatever, I was at a hunter pace where a mare wouldn't load onto the trailer to go home. Everyone gave it the ol' college try - poking, prodding, squeezing, begging, etc., and the mare wouldn't load (of course!). No one beat her or abused her, but the typical "10 people standing around, each taking their turn with their own way" and no one having success. Someone off watching in the distance says that one of the people she came with can get the mare on the trailer. The owners were all for it, all methods had been exhausted at that point. The gal goes & gets her friend, who comes and works with the horse on the ground for 15-20 minutes, points the mare to the trailer and she hops on, takes her back off, mare hops back on.... wash, rinse, repeat...... Mare is loaded in the trailer, I ask ground-working gal for her card. Now, keep in mind I come from a racetrack background, and have come up around people who, God love 'em, aren't always the most open to anything different that what they are used to... and have it admit I had serious doubts that what this gal was doing on the ground was going to accomplish a darn thing in getting the mare to load. But hey, I couldn't get her to load....

Fast-forward to "Crazy unridable untrainable mare" who comes into CANTER's care. The mare is described as "explosive" - she'll tremble, sweat, shake and go EVERY direction except forward under saddle. "Leads" well enough on the ground, loads on the trailer, but as far as ground work/lunging is concerned, will do nothing but trot 90 miles an hour in either direction. Tack=terror for this mare. (Oddly enough, when indoors, she's not quite so bad, would just be considered "hot" - but the second you step out into the light of day, up she goes - never could figure that connection out). Send her to a "traditional" trainer for 90 days, a VERY good rider, specializes in OTTBs, former jockey/gallop gal, decades of experience. I'll not take anything away from this gal in that department, and I've seen her handle some pretty hot horses like she's off enjoying a Sunday drive. 90 days later, we have the same exact mare for the most part. She's downright dangerous, and we can NOT afford to adopt her out the way that she is, far too much of a liability, and just plain wouldn't be the right thing to do. Now, keep in mind again, almost my entire "horsie career" has been spent at the track.... I've seen and handled some REAL doozies. And this mare was just plain OFF - there was a switch in her mind that just wasn't working right. Digging into her background at the track, she always had a history of being 'hot' but was considered manageable. The one hint of things to come was the fact that sometimes, when coming back from morning gallops, she'd freeze and refuse to go forward. Not an everyday thing, the rider would generally hop off and lead her the rest of the way - this was NOT a mare you wanted to get into a fight with - you were going to lose. Somewhere along the line, she decided she'd had ENOUGH. She had no physical issues (we took care of teeth, chiro, etc.) to be found.

I REALLY thought this mare was "salvagable", why I don't know. So, I dig through the roladex (geez, who still has one of those things?) and find the card for the gal who loaded the mare. We spoke at GREAT LENGTH about the mare, made the arrangements, and off the mare went to the new gal. My first trip up, probably 3-4 weeks later to check the progress, I saw a different horse. Mind you, no one on her back, but on the ground - under tack - was a completely different animal. She was attentive, willing, smart as a whip - and the trainer was in love with her. She was doing - what I now know - each of the 7 games very well - tight on movements, "phase 1" asking only. Another 3-4 weeks, she's doing everything at liberty.... tacked up.... "A freakin' circus pony", I called her.... she could lead or point or back that mare anywhere through, up, over, or around any obstacle by pointing or wiggling her finger.... another 3-4 weeks, the mare is positioning herself at the mounting block, allowing trainer to mount, and being ridden OUTSIDE(!) with halter & lead rope (and saddle). NOT rearing or going sideways. No one claimed any miracle, nor tried to sell me anything either. Trainer is my new "best friend"

Untrainable mare:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...angelblock.jpg

This year, we get starved little Peaches, who was unhandled, but amicable enough in most ways. Sure, she needs to learn to lead, pick up her feet, not crowd you, etc., but those are things that most of us have taught before - based on experience, not having to buy videos or any special equipment. Is she a basket case? By no means. She's just a little behind in learning the things that most horses learn as foals. When we first got her, because of the emergency situation that surrounding her, we had to keep her in a stall at the track, there was nowhere else for her to go at that point. Lots of very experienced folks played with her, she learned to lead, walk on the walker, we started working on picking up her feet, etc. Just basic handling, nothing special. Now, when she was rescued, she was hesitant to load, but also so malnourished & weak was not in any condition to put up a fight - and it was her first time on a trailer. She was basically (literally) just scooped up from behind and put on the trailer.

Now comes the time to move her from the track, we found a place willing to give her a stall & a little turnout until we could find somewhere more permanent for her to stay. Big, roomy trailer - expected her to probably give a little trouble loading but didn't think it would be a huge deal. Well, it was. Peaches was much stronger and feeling MUCH better now. The biggest deal in loading a horse I've ever endured. Now, those of you from the track know that a horse that won't load is a like honey to flies - EVERYONE comes out of the woodwork. You'll see people you haven't seen in YEARS pop up in the crowd. So, about 15 people, probably well over 200 years combined experience in loading & handling thoroughbreds of all temperments that are unwilling to load, several dozen feet of rope, 2 broken halters, blood, sweat & tears (the blood & tears were mine ), a buggy whip (NOT "whipped" mind you), a broom, a rake, an umbrella being popped open & closed, several breaks back to the stall, a vet, syringe, needle, cocktail and two pairs of ripped jeans later.... Peaches is on the trailer. Knowing she would only be at the new place for a month or so, my next course of action was to call the trainer above and schedule the date for her trailering, having her come to load her - all the time in the world needed.

Lots of good experienced horse folks at this barn as well... one of the top 10 young dressage horses in the nation lives and is trained here. Our trainer pulls up with her trailer and trusty "carrot" stick and gets the same reaction that most give here.... eyes rolling, oh that's a PARELLI stick, like it's a dirty word. Small crowd watches for a while as trainer works with Peaches on the ground. Eyes are still rolling, lots of "I could have had her on there by now", blah blah blah.... I smile & nod, seeing myself in their comments/thoughts prior to meeting this trainer. "She's teaching her to load, not just getting her on the trailer, I say." Mind you, I still don't know or understand a whole heck of a lot of what she's doing - I don't know what the "7 games" are, etc. I just know this gal can get results. So, the time comes and she points Peaches to the trailer and in she goes. Out she comes, in she goes - wash, rinse, repeat. The trainer says to me, "This filly belongs at my place - she's smart, cute and has tons of spirit. I like her. She needs to be somewhere where she can be worked with." She offers to donate six weeks of board, plus a six week ground training course for Peaches - IF I'd make the commitment to come and do the course with Peaches. Well, "free" and "donate" being the magic words in rescue, , I say "TAKE HER!". BTW, everyone else had walked away after only 10 minutes, because they just knew there was nothing to learn or see there.

Now, it's my turn to learn - HA! Old habits die hard, the whole teaching an old dog new tricks thing, ya know. Please, give me a greenie who is a NIGHTMARE in the paddock, needing a lip chain and extreme dexterity and a strong right arm, and have them drag me to the paddock, have to be saddled on the walk, etc., etc., and it's NO PROBLEM.... but ask me to keep hold of this little filly's lead at LEAST two arm lengths from the halter? Let the rope touch the ground? Ha ha ha..... ALL THUMBS. Peaches is dancing around, I'm totally and completely frustrated because I KNOW that I CAN make her be still. I know that I CAN keep her out of 'my space', but I've made the commitment to at least TRY a new way. I stuck with it, as hard as it was some times. Who'd have thought the stuff that is made light of here so often could have had an experienced track gal to the point of TEARS in frustration at times - all because I COULDN'T do what I normally would and was all thumbs with that damn 12 ft. rope & stick. BUT, I stuck with it. Thank the Lord little Peaches is smarter than I am most days. She now has AMAZING ground manners and is like a little monkey, stepping up onto or over anything I point her towards.

When it comes to the methods, again not the man, not the marketing - it was VERY easy to see how this stuff could get a horrible name being in a group class, even with just myself, if folks are trying to do this with just videos or books, not having someone there to teach. The biggest mistake I saw, and hey, EVERYONE makes mistakes when learning, was that many people didn't get the idea of releasing pressure IMMEDIATELY upon getting the desired result, or running up the phases too quickly - a trainer being present was absolutely necessary to help people learn this. Luckily, I did already know - as many of us do - the idea of pressure/release immediately, so once I got past the frustration of what to DO with all this STUFF I had to handle, things got much easier, quickly - and how FUN!! What I was learning was different ways to give pressure - different areas, different results, different ideas. But I could see where people could get into BIG trouble if trying this without instruction. The "flickatation" and "rope wagglin'", etc., are things you should NOT be seeing unless a horse is just beginning to learn giving that type of pressure. It's like saying "Shoes are bad!!" - it's not the shoes, its the application.

Am I by any means now a "trainer" or "expert" after a six week course? My goodness NO. But have I learned anything that will be of benefit to myself and horses in my present & future life? HECK YES. The BIGGEST mistake we can make as horsemen is to close our minds to ANYTHING. You've got to be willing to open up your mind and keep it that way until you at least understand the meanings behind ANY method. Even if you don't agree with it, or will never use the method, you've learned something from it. And the minute you stop learning, you limit yourself, your horses and your future with them.

[Laurel&HollyFarm]

Thank you every one for responding and mostly looking at the positive side of Parelli. I was tied up all day yesterday and wasn't able to get back to the thread but I wanted to make a few comments about some of the things that have been said. I appologize that I have not gone back through the thread to find out who said what.

Someone mentioned that it took a very difficult horse for them to embrace the the natural horsemanship methods. That's the way it was for me. My husband and I breed horses. One of the people that purchased one of our foals actually acused us of crossing him with a lab since he is so easy to work with and so friendly. We are the only ones that ever worked with him and this was before my Parelli lessons.

Annika, I do love Bob very much! He is just the perfect horse for me. I thought that I would improve my riding by getting him and I have. I had no idea that he would improve my horsemanship so much . He can be both funny and sweet. The funny part is when we go to shows. He absolutely loves it! I braid for dressage at my low level just because you can tell he thinks he is so beautiful and is ready to perform. There is a picture of us in my profile.

About the carrot stick. In the level 2 program they actually have you tie a bell to the carrot stick to make you aware of how much you are using it so that you will stop. It is a tool to get you past level 1 but after that they want you to limit its use.

Anyway thanks again everyone for keeping it positive and I look forward to more comments.

Terry

[monstrpony]

CANTERSoIL and Horsecrazy27, where is the stand-up-and-applaud icon??? Very well said!!

SaturdayNightLive, go back and read the title of this thread. If you don't have anything nice to say, well--what you said has been said a gazillion times on this BB already (yaaaaawwwwn), we really just don't need to read it again. Almost no one here has spoken in absolutes (except you). I did experience a large number of accomplished horsemen who ignored the communication basics, but I certainly haven't experienced all of them, nor did I claim to. Clearly others were raised by horsemen who did include this in their teaching, and I know many of the top-level people in all disciplines understand it in their own way; it's why they're the ones on top. I just amazes me how many pretty darned good ones don't put this kind of thing at a higher priority in their work. War Admiral's post at the top of page two puts that in perspective quite well.

But I think CANTERSoIL's post says it all. There is something to be learned from this type of horsemanship, even by people who have been surviving quite nicely, thank you, by other methods. The other methods are not abusive, by any means, but sometimes, it can just be done a little better for the horse. That's worth something.

Unfortunately, as in all things in life that are worthwhile, there is also a lot of room for error. I don't think anyone will deny that. But, for all of it's flaws, and the evidence shows that they are considerable, at least the Parelli system is trying. At least they are trying.

[lindac]

Thank You CANTERSoIL for a wonderful post.

I consider myself very lucky to have a barn owner who invited a Parelli instructor to come to the barn and give clinics. This was 5 years ago.

I had just bought a very spooky 3 yo ASB gelding. I had 20 years of experience with horses at that point, mostly Saddle Seat type training. I had always dealt with mainly older horses and the young ASB's that I was involved with when I was younger were never as spooky as my 3 year old ASB Dressage prospect!

I went to several Parelli clinics held at the barn. I watched and I learned and I applied what I learned with my horse. He was scared of EVERYTHING. He was a very fearful horse, but bright and eager to learn. He slowly came around and we passed our Level 1 groundwork with flying colors.

I believe totally in my heart that had I not found a training system that taught ME how to deal with my horse's behavior, that I would have a very fancy ASB pleasure horse instead of the very nice and successful soon to be Grand Prix Dressage horse Harry Callahan.

I could have learned from Clinton Anderson or Monty Roberts, but the Parelli instructor got there first. Did I buy into all of it. No. My goal was to have a Dressage horse, so I only did the Level 1 groundwork.
But if my goal was to have a fun companion and not serious competition, sure, I would be right there trying to get my Level 3!

[Ghazzu]

But that dosen't mean that they understand to teach the way they communicate with horses to their students. Sometimes, people that it comes naturally to think it does for everyone. If it did, then Parelli wouldn't be raking in the bucks, helping people understand their horses.

Not a big fan of the Parelli system, but I am a fan of Natural Horsemanship and have seen how some spectacularly unnatural horse handlers/riders have been helped by learning some fundalmental basics for dealing with animals.

What he does is break down every little thing into an insert tab A into slot B type of directions.
So people who *don't* understand horses can get some results.
Yes, in many cases, the lightbulb does go on for the people doing this, but at this point, I've seen a significant number of people who faithfully follow their little flashcards, and still can't buy a clue.

In that respect, PP is no different from anyone else who "sells" a training method.

Part of all this is, IMO, due to the increasing numbers of horseowners who didn't grow up around the beasts. You tend to learn most of that stuff by osmosis if you hang with old horsesmen for years, and take care of horses on a day to day basis.
But things change, and growing up riding but not caretaking, and never having the opportunity to spend time with people who start horses makes all this seem very mysterious and a Big Deal.

So people tend to think that someone pointing what a lot of horsemen find obvious is magic.

What it is is the basic operating system. Most horsemen assume that people already know their way around Windows, and are teaching people to do animations in Powerpoint.
Parelli et al are explaining how to boot up and where the shortcut keys are and how to use the mouse.

Plus, as a dog trainer friend of mine points out, there are a lot of people in the world who, no matter how hard you try to teach them, just *can't* read animal body language.

[Laurel&HollyFarm]

Beautifully said Cantersoil

I think I was composing my last post when you were composing yours.

I just wanted to add one thing to the above post to Annika. After I sent the original post I almost deleted it as I was afraid that you would take it the wrong way. I had played with Bob that night and had so much fun that I wanted to post something positive to the board after all the bad things that have been said. I am so glad you didn't. I am very lucky to be the one that was allowed to own this horse . He is the horse of a lifetime for me.

Terry

[EqTrainer]

Sure, easy. So why did I stumble around in the dark for 40 years, taking numerous lessons and clinics with people that anyone on this BB would recognize as "good" and yet never learned this stuff?

I disagree completely with your statement. There are legions of "good" trainers who simply overlook this aspect of horsemanship because the buying public thinks that showing, riding over fences, producing fancy upper-level dressage movements, yadda, yadda, is what horsemanship is about, and basic communication with the equine species takes a very back seat.

For all the things there are to dislike about the Parelli system (and the other marketeers), I will grant them this: the horse business is more aware today that there is a better way to interact with horses, and the relatively *few* to whom it comes naturally are no longer seen as mystics or freaks of nature; it IS possible to learn to do this better.

And who benefits the most? The horse. 'Nuf said.

Then they aren't *good* trainers. The operative word here was GOOD. Or PERHAPS you weren't a good learner. Sorrry to be harsh but you know, that is always a possibility! I personally find it useless to place blame at the feet of others, especially if I am writing the check.

Why did you stumble around for so long? That I cannot say. I always wonder this about people. Why *would* you take lessons and clinics for years and not "learn this stuff" - this stuff meaning, ground work and communications? 40 years is a long time to not realize you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Sannois]

I believe alot of it..

As some of the people that come to Pat and Linda Parelli say . . . . my horse is perfect but . . .

I have one of those horses. Bob was perfect when he came to me. He was perfect when he had his clothes on . . . his halter or his bridle or saddle . . . but without those things he was and is dangerous. He has bitten me several times. One time on my neck, just above my collar bone. Actually picked me up. I was ready to send him back to his previous owner but am glad that I didn't.

I had seen the Parelli hoopla prior to getting Bob and actually had purchased the carrot stick, halter, lead rope, etc. but never really figured out how to use them. Through a fluke at Rolex, my husband and I got to spend a lot of quality time with Karen and David O'Connor and were seriously considering going to one of their camps. I knew that part of the clinic would include the seven games and knew that they were not the easiest things to learn. Turns out my new next door neighbor was a Parelli Level one graduate so she arranged for lessons.

The change in Bob is incredible to say the least. He was a hard case for the instructor. She was in awe of his beauty but he was rude on the ground and ran all over me. Now I can wiggle my finger and he just backs away. Or point in a direction and he moves that way. It is amazing.

Parelli is alot about hype but it is also a lot about helping horses and the people that love them. Bob is a much better horse because of Parelli. And I am a much better horse owner.

Flame away, but no karohbi stick jokes please.

does work and is beneficial in the right hands, my complaint is the delivery and approach on the part of the Parellis. Best of luck with your boy, Sounds like you have a new partnership with him!

[Horsecrazy27]

I have never met anyone who thinks that if someone is not doing Parellie that they

Well, just MHO, but I think that Parelli, Roberts, and the rest of them are complete idiots. That whole flick-it-at-'em rope nonsense just pushes me over the edge. ...or maybe it's the legions of followers who insist that anybody not doing Parelli is abusive and doesn't know how to communicate with their horse. It doesn't take a special stick with a level 8 hot pink string attached to teach good ground manners and I resent that fact that all of you Parelli supporters insist that ALL show horses have terrible ground manners and are complete monsters to deal with. I'm sorry, but my 4 year old hunter is better schooled that just about any Parelli trained horse I have ever seen. If Parelli is such a genius horse trainer than how come not a single Parelli trained horse has ever reached the top in H/J or dressage competition?

Yes, I am making a lot of generalizations here - but I'm certainly not the only one. And no, this is not directed at those who understand that there are other methods out there. It's more directed at those of you who continue to insist that all H/J and Dressage people are abusive.

I hope you are not referring to me---as I have not pointed my fingers at anyone----just sharing thoughts. I have never met anyone personally that thinks that horses that aren't doing PP are useless and I for sure do not think that anyone NOT doing Parelli is abusive? Who told you this? I'm not a "follower", I'm just sharing my thoughts on what I have seen and APPRICIATED of his work. As I said about the RFD channel I watch them all, I like the Ultimate Cowboy race, the Clay Obrian Cooper Roping show, the Dressage Extentions...I like it all and APPRICIATE it all. I don't slam Paso Finos and they way they ride---Which I have NO understanding at all, but to have watched maybe 4 shows of them doing the "sound Deck"....and kinda baffeled, but I APPRICIATE it. Doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and ride like them---or doesn't mean I'm going to dog them.

Your comment about why a PP hasn't made it to higher levels of H/J---what about the Olympic Riders the "O'conners?

Please, I'm not saying that he is the HORSE God, but I think he has things that should be appriciated----like his qualities as a human and how he has made a positive influence on many people who where at their last "straw" on their horse.

I have never said and I also have never heard that all horses are idiots unless Parelli trained????????

I only brought up what I have seen as a young adult because it really left an impression on me.......and remembering seeing the students treat their horses like their trainer, because that is what they were used to. From all the trainers I have seen abuse horses--I have also see them cherish their horses and do super well with them. My biggest point, is that when I was a youngster training and one is used to seeing some agressive behavior and sometimes to the point of no return----you start accepting that and copying that because it is what your used to. You know what I'm saying-=--I'm not being that clear, maybe the meds----but, see something that at first made you cringe---then you start seeing it on a daily basis, it becomes "okay".
Like my husband who was a police officer for 11 years----after a while, accident scenes didn't effect him as bad as they first did.


When I was talking about "abuse", I'm not talking about a whack with the hand, or whip, or spurs, or twitching.--or even a whoffel bat (spelling) that I read---(it probably would of been what PP used, if his "carrot stick" wasn't around.) I'm talking ABUSE....no food/water for 3 days, tied to a pole in the ground, beating the horse with a dressage whip across his face with 30 lashes because he is grinding his teeth, jumping a horse while it is dead lame, riding a horse to death (litterally), ect. I even can accept laying a horse down to teach them trust-----but, you get the horse down then beat the
-hit out of it???? These were done by people who are admired--people that I admired and trained with! They are basically good people that let themselves go over the edge. They have kids that look up to them that they teach--------these kids are growing up thinking that it is all okay????????

PP is trying to reach these people to help them learn that when they come to a fork in the road----take the high road.

Believe me, I'm NO push over with my horses---- I have a way about me that the first time I ask nicely----second, I'm no longer asking, I'm demanding.

Around 8 years ago when I met my husband, he would get bothered by how strict I was with my horses. Especially having a stallion, I didn't give 2nd chances and I was like living with a saftey first army sargent. When I found PP 2 years ago, it made me look at myself FIRST to see if I'm placing crossed wires on what I'm asking-----Now, I make sure I'm extra consistant and clear----with that and some of the communications that he has put out there to learn, I have come leaps and bonds with my horses. **and to make it clear, I have always had well behaved, happy horses....... As I said before, I was very natural around horses and seemed to naturally have an understanding of their communication------he just sent me to "grad" school.

I don't think he is the have all/end all-----but, there is something to learn from him.

I can tell by some post that those don't really know about PP...or even what he is teaching....they get caught up in how he talks, the music----or what ever instead of appriciating/learning something from him.

Those people have probably just seen newbie level one handlers.......PP is all about getting LIGHT. Just like for example:

The yo-yo game as he calls it. Which is to get the horse to back away with your fingers shaking.

1. You point your to your horse, look serious, stand confident and like you mean business. Have the rope loose over your arm with your "pointing" finger up to the air---shaking it-----if the horse doesn't back with in 3 sec., you shake the rope lightly using just your wrist for 3 sec., if the horse doesn't back, you shake it with your forearm 3 sec., again, if doesn't move in 3 sec, you step it up to your whole arm where the way the rope is designed, the heavy clip whacks them under their head....then they usually back. If they take even just a half a step, you are supposed to drop your hand, smile and that is their reward. Right away, You do it again. Horses learn usually after 3-7 times to back after the wrist wiggle....then about a dozen times, will usually back up with you shaking your finger at him with that --"back up or else look on your face." Therefore teaching the horse to back up with the least amount of conviencing. The other part of the "yo" is bringing them back....which you bend slightly forward with a welcoming smile on your face and pretend to be pulling the rope from hand to hand--for 3 sec, (no pressure on the rope), then if they don't step toward you, you add pressure with the same motion, then again if they don't come forward you stand your ground and hold the rope till pulling toward you till they take a step forward. All my horses love this and usually just have to bend and smile--they come to me.

I know his games are all named wierd things---but, I think he does this to make it "friendly".....and kid friendly. And could be part of his corny personality.

I think WE ALL have attributes to offer in this world----in this horsely world. Because you may not like the things he does--doesn't mean he doesn't have something to offer. He learn one thing from him---wouldn't it be worth it to stop, listen and not judge?

As I have aged, I have not always been so open----and matter of fact, used to put PP down because I saw a person try and teach newbies...doing things that they should not of been doing. But this person was NOT PP....and from what I have learned---it is not what he promotes either. It is like me judging you (Satnightlive) from a person who you desided to copy something that you did with your horse....then that person shared that info with 10 other people, then people that heard from those 10 people tried what you did with your horse----turns out it was not what you did....not even close---but, yet, I judge you because of them?? Would that be fair? No...would not be.


I just hate seeing people make fun of someone who is trying to be a positive outlet in the world......

[murphyluv]

Putting the flame suit on..
I took a parelli clinic once.. The instructor had some very good points, and some things have stuck with me, however there were some things I didn't like.

I agree w/ what people are saying about not making fun of something you've never tried or seriously looked into, or making generalizations (for both sides of the argument). I'm sure Parelli has helped a lot of people and horses along the way, and I think that's great. If you see him in person or any of his instructors teaching a clinic, I can see how it can make a lot of sense and help people. After watching some other clinicians I'm still scratching my head and wondering "what exactly did they do again??"

However, I see the other posters point as to how much marketing there is, and that Parelli is not a "cure-all", common "horse" sense IS. You cannot teach everyone the little nuances of horse behavior and when to release pressure, if they just don't get it and don't try hard enough. My problem is when someone does not actually take the time or money to do a clinic, but instead buy the materials (and gathering from what other folks have said, parelli's writing is hard to understand) and try to do it themselves. Unless you already have a really good understanding of horse behavior that would be hard to do.
Also, I have a problem w/ the fact that almost every single ad for Parelli that I see show someone NOT wearing a helmet. That is just not the image that if I were some genius horse trainer (which I'm obviously not) I would like to project. If they talk about safety, then why the hell are they going around jumping picnic tables bareback w/ no helmet?? that has nothing to do w/ trusting your horse.. If you have a problem with wearing a helmet, just watch the video "every ride, every time" and you will never even think about riding bareheaded again.

[Laurel&HollyFarm]

No need for a flame suit

Putting the flame suit on..
I took a parelli clinic once.. The instructor had some very good points, and some things have stuck with me, however there were some things I didn't like.

I agree w/ what people are saying about not making fun of something you've never tried or seriously looked into, or making generalizations (for both sides of the argument). I'm sure Parelli has helped a lot of people and horses along the way, and I think that's great. If you see him in person or any of his instructors teaching a clinic, I can see how it can make a lot of sense and help people. After watching some other clinicians I'm still scratching my head and wondering "what exactly did they do again??"

However, I see the other posters point as to how much marketing there is, and that Parelli is not a "cure-all", common "horse" sense IS. You cannot teach everyone the little nuances of horse behavior and when to release pressure, if they just don't get it and don't try hard enough. My problem is when someone does not actually take the time or money to do a clinic, but instead buy the materials (and gathering from what other folks have said, parelli's writing is hard to understand) and try to do it themselves. Unless you already have a really good understanding of horse behavior that would be hard to do.
Also, I have a problem w/ the fact that almost every single ad for Parelli that I see show someone NOT wearing a helmet. That is just not the image that if I were some genius horse trainer (which I'm obviously not) I would like to project. If they talk about safety, then why the hell are they going around jumping picnic tables bareback w/ no helmet?? that has nothing to do w/ trusting your horse.. If you have a problem with wearing a helmet, just watch the video "every ride, every time" and you will never even think about riding bareheaded again.

I agree with the points that you make. As I mentioned in my opening post. I had to get help from an actual person before I understood how to use the tools and play the games. The videos and books are good for reinforcement but in my opinion are no substitute for learning first from a hands on instructor.

I also do not like the fact that they don't promote the use of helmets. They say make your horse safe and you won't need one. I just don't think you can make a flight animal that safe. That is one area I would like to see changed in their clinics, demonstrations, ads, videos, etc. It does distract from the good things they teach.

[TBLvr]

I would call myself a student of horsemanship - always trying to learn, always trying to get better results. Try to keep an open mind and realize that in the end, its the horse that grades both me and the methods I'm using.

As far as Pat Parelli is concerned, I think it really helps to seperate Pat Parelli from the business of Parelli Natural Horsemanship. And especially Linda Parelli!

Pat Parelli is - in my opinion - an extremely talented horseman blessed both with a gift of gab and having had some incredible teachers in his life (Ray Hunt, Troy Henry, Tom Dorrance and others) - all of whom he continually credits. To watch a young Pat Parelli and see his passion and abilities is inspiring. His message is a good one. I've met him, been to the ranch, watched him and learned some great things.

On the other hand it's very easy to see how people can form negative opinions based on PNH's marketing and especially (imo) listening to Linda Parelli, who drives me nuts, especially with her "I don't wear a helmet because I have the protection of Savvy". Oh good God Its like this woman latched on to Pat Parelli and set out to make herself famous at his expense. She redo's alot of Pat's early work, replacing him with herself (and dumbing it down so much that PNH has a high number of certified trainers dropping out in disgust and going on their own) that if you didn't know better you'd think SHE was the reason for PNH.

[Horsecrazy27]

The helmet issue is a good one........ I'm one that is HORRIBLE about NOT wearing a helmet, unless I'm jumping. Which I know, I know---you can have a problem wether you jumping or not. That is my thing. PP is a cowboy----I think his "orgin" just doesn't do that. I don't know one single cowboy that wears a helmet???

NOT making excuses, because yes, I agree, at least make the people riding in the clinic wear helmets and encourage them for the use at home.

Speaking of how we all have something to add to this world===you have a good point.

[Horsecrazy27]

Linda..... I can see your point too

I would call myself a student of horsemanship - always trying to learn, always trying to get better results. Try to keep an open mind and realize that in the end, its the horse that grades both me and the methods I'm using.

As far as Pat Parelli is concerned, I think it really helps to seperate Pat Parelli from the business of Parelli Natural Horsemanship. And especially Linda Parelli!

Pat Parelli is - in my opinion - an extremely talented horseman blessed both with a gift of gab and having had some incredible teachers in his life (Ray Hunt, Troy Henry, Tom Dorrance and others) - all of whom he continually credits. To watch a young Pat Parelli and see his passion and abilities is inspiring. His message is a good one. I've met him, been to the ranch, watched him and learned some great things.

On the other hand it's very easy to see how people can form negative opinions based on PNH's marketing and especially (imo) listening to Linda Parelli, who drives me nuts, especially with her "I don't wear a helmet because I have the protection of Savvy". Oh good God Its like this woman latched on to Pat Parelli and set out to make herself famous at his expense. She redo's alot of Pat's early work, replacing him with herself (and dumbing it down so much that PNH has a high number of certified trainers dropping out in disgust and going on their own) that if you didn't know better you'd think SHE was the reason for PNH.

I really like your expression of "dumbing it up"....I agree with this. I know there are some dense people in the world (I can SOMETIMES include myself into that catagory)....but, she really has added too much info on such a simple thing---- I like that phrase, "Keep it simple stupid", I do feel like she means well.... I have never heard her say that helmet qoute---that is very scary if she did. If I were in her spot----that would never come out of my mouth. I think also she puts too much human thoughts into things---gosh, what am I trying to say......

Sorry, my tooth is killing me---waiting for the vicadan to start its handy work!!

Anyway, that would be a good reason for me to want to come up and shake her and say---what are you saying---what are you allowing kids to think.

[Candle]

War Admiral- I don't think you're being fair. You're expecting these BNT's to do EVERYTHING with a horse, when they already teach them so much under saddle. A professional does not have time to teach a whole barnful of horses how to stand quietly for sheath cleaning, something that even years of teaching won't help some horses with. I also don't see anything wrong with tranq'ing a horse for a sheath cleaning. This is like saying a trainer at the track is a bad trainer because his or her OTTB that came to you doesn't know how to do something you think it should. They just don't have the hours in the day to teach every horse everything. That doesn't make Parelli any better because he teaches ground manners. He doesn't teach high level riding effectively for any discipline other than CTR or distance riding. *end rant*

[LetsRide]

[QUOTE=Horsecrazy27;2067685]
Your comment about why a PP hasn't made it to higher levels of H/J---what about the Olympic Riders the "O'conners?
[QUOTE]



You believe that Pat Parelli trained David and Karen BEFORE they were riding/competing/winning at an international level?

[murphyluv]

Amen to that! good point!