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someone explain to me what's going on with this horse

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  • #41
    Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
    Speaking as an old-timer, am I the only one who remembers the day when ALL Quarter Horses had this same general body type? Give or take some weird conformational hiccups in this individual, this WAS the breed standard for foundation QH. So in all honesty I can't quite see what the fuss is all about... Am I missing something?
    I remember when QH's looked athletic. They were heavy in the hind from working, turning and stopping - but they didn't look anything like THIS. They didn't look deformed. They were also in proportion - they had bigger heads. What happened to their head? Please don't tell me they are breeding for small heads to make the body appear even larger!

    When I was at Hoosier Horse fair this year I saw a horse that looked like this and I couldn't take my eyes off of him. The owner was an ancient old cowboy......so my initial reaction was to think the poor horse was victim of some archaic horse care that never evolved. I didn't know this was a "new" thing. The horse looked depressed to me too...but thats a matter of opnion. They call that a well-behaved horse.

    But this also explains the reason why my stupid SIL who shows QH's takes her horses OFF HAY for 6 weeks prior to a show. I have never had the balls to ask her because she's a total idiot and arguing with her is like slamming my head against the wall.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
      How "old timer" are you? Pre-Impressive?
      Haha, WAYYYYYYYYY pre-Impressive, yes. And I do understand what you are talking about. Haven't stayed totally au courant but I'm pretty familiar w/ the issues you describe.
      "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

      Comment


      • #43
        I reiterate...

        Why does one breed horses that cannot be ridden?

        What is the mental process there? What happens if the horse doesn't succeed? What if the horse is sold? Where do they go? What do they do for the next twenty years? Who takes care of them?

        This is a question of ethics. I am thoroughly intolerant of moral relativism and saying that making horses with a diminished chance of a high quality of life is okay just because "different strokes for different folks" stinks of bad ethics.

        No. It is *not* the same. The WBFSH did a survey of what 19 of the sporthorse registries include in their summarized breeding aim. Health, soundness, or durability was EXPLICITLY mentioned in the aim of over HALF of them.
        When asked to rank traits by importance (jumping ability, gaits, conformation, dressage ability, behavior, etc), the BWP, FWB, NRPS, and GOV rated "Health" highest. Among all the traits and all the registries, "Health" was overall more important than competition in driving, competition in eventing, competition in dressage, temperament, and fertility.

        Danish Warmbloods: "A riding horse with a big performance ability in either dressage or show jumping, able to compete at international level. The horse is noble, sizeable and subtle with good health in use and high reproductive
        ability."

        Bavarian Warmbloods: "Riding horse that performs well in the sport disciplines dressage, show jumping and eventing with an elegant conformation and willingness to work, a reliable temperament, a good health, a high durability and a good fertility."

        Oldenburg: "A noble, generously lined, high performing sport horse with active impulsion and space gaining, elastic movements which, because of its predisposition, is permanently suitable for any type of sport (dressage,
        show jumping, eventing, driving)."

        http://www.wbfsh.org/docs/koenen.pdf
        The survey and it's results. I compare those attitudes with those expressed by the AQHA in their mission statement. Where do they express a commitment to producing healthy horses? Where do they express a sense of responsibility? Is ANYONE here going to *really* truly tell me that the attitude of the halter world is just as ethically sound as that of the registries I just mentioned?

        There is NOTHING in this world to keep a powerful, athletic horse from having the structural integrity to be sound and safe and happy his whole life (meaning USEFUL). Except, evidently, for the attitude that "This is my property and I'll do with it what I please, and because I am entitled, nobody can tell me differently."

        Clarification...this is not about the work involved. I believe that there are JUST as many people out there breeding for sound, useful western riding/working horses as there are breeding for sound, useful sporthorses. Just so this doesn't become about English vs. Western or something.

        Flame away.
        Disclaimer: My mom told me that people might look at my name and think I had an addiction other than horses. I don't; his name was Bravado.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by MNP View Post
          Glad to hear about the Performance halter class, but does that mean they are getting rid of the original halter class and replacing it with Performance or will there be both?
          There will be both and at each show the winner of the Performance Halter class will compete against the winner of the regular Halter Class in a championship class.

          The hope being to encourage a more all around halter horse and to get more people back into halter who have been scared off because of the extremes it has moved to. The AQHA is trying to fix what is wrong, much like the work they have done in the western pleasure classes.

          Personally, I think there are still some nice halter lines. This is my guy back in his heyday http://www.metalmom.com/MT%20Congress.jpg . He's 100% halter bred, sire is Windchester (18th all time QH sire for halter and performance horses) and his dam Jodi Mac Bee is out of the same line as Jackie Bee.

          My guy has his youth performance ROM with points from Hunter Hack to Reining and everything inbetween. At his best he was jumping 4' and at 18 the only soundness issue he has is heaves, which has nothing to do with the halter breeding. No halter points though as I often, lovingly, refer to him as "the mistake" (what halter bred QH comes out with a head that needs warmblood size halters and bridles? LOL).

          Comment


          • #45
            In regards to HYPP - here's a link

            http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon...ypp_facts.html

            They have done a lot of research on this disease, I was around in the 80's when it was first being noticed that some Impressive breds "just weren't right" - we called it tying up syndrome, Impressive syndrome..etc. as there was not an actual name for it at that time (at least we show folks didn't know the correct name) but we knew there was something a bit odd about the number of Impressive bred babies that were "off" a bit.


            Some horses are asymptomatic, never show a single symptom and yet are postive for the flaw. Others are full blown and have to euthanized. Sad to see, and I am glad that the AQHA finally stepped up to the plate and recognized that something had to be done. Now if they can just do something about the N/H horses still being bred..it makes sense to me that this can be eradicated by simply NOT breeding H/H, or N/H horses that it would be a simple thing to get rid of it in one generation..but then again, I have to remember to take off the rose colored glasses, because unfortunately..some people just want to make money. I simply could not knowingly do that to a horse.

            Comment


            • #46
              "Ireiterate...

              Why does one breed horses that cannot be ridden?"



              Money. There is money to be made. THAT's why. sylvia
              Never explain yourself to someone who is committed to misunderstanding you.

              Comment


              • #47
                Some people do not enjoy riding horses. Some people would rather show them in hand. Yes, I'm sure there's money involved too, as with every discipline.

                I've been in and out of QH barns for a lot of years, showed them, owned them, did lessons with western trainers, and all that, and honestly I have only seen a grand sum of ONE horse that there is no way could be ridden - the mare I told you about at the local show. All the others were muscled, but well able to be ridden in performance arenas!

                I personally visited this farm for 2 days and met almost every horse in the barn. http://sheriffstockfarm.com/imagined.htm

                They were lovely horses who weren't grotesque and extreme. They were heavily muscled and looked like they could smash you with one eyelash, but they were lovely animals. Very gentle, sweet, curious, and I saw several of them worked in the round pen or the indoor. They asked the horses to extend their stride, and there was absolutely nothing about any of their horses that said they "couldn't be ridden" if they failed at Halter!

                Sure you may find extreme grotesque horses out there. They're in EVERY discipline. Warmbloods too! But they're the exception - not the rule.

                I know what HYPP is. I was responding to Cinder88's claim that the disease CAUSES heavy muscling, and thereby she was implying that halter breeders WANT HYPP in their herds to increase muscle mass. That's how I took it anyway. And if that was incorrect, then she needs to clarify.

                Also - my mare was bred to The Invester, here at this site http://www.danmcwhirter.com/home/.

                We spent a whole day at the farm with Dan and Carol and saw all their horses. Their horses excel at both Halter and performance disciplines. The horses were HUGE, but we saw some of them being ridden, and we saw all the trophies and ribbons on the walls and stalls from both halter and performance classes. In fact, there are photos on their site of The Invester winning in Halter classes, AND working cows!

                My mother worked at the farm who stood Conclusive Lee (Impressive son.) Not sure who owns him now - anyway, he was a halter champion, as well as a performance champion. My mother showed Halter horses for the farm, and we have lots of pictures of beautiful 2 and 3 year olds winning at halter that could EASILY get tacked up and go on a trail ride or work a cow. They had good conformation and dispositions.

                It's just incorrect, and not fair to assume that Halter horses are worthless because they cannot be ridden. Again, I will say that I have personally only seen one such horse who was so grotesquely muscled (and fat too) with tiny teacup feet, that she was lame.

                Comment


                • #48
                  No you aren't the only old timer that remembers that when most Qhs didn't top 15 hands and 15.2 was considered "huge"..and most were bulldoggy and very athletic with big ole heads - lol..then over the years, more and more TB blood until now there are some QHs that one can't tell the horse is EVEN a QH except on paper..look just like Tbs with the same amount of height, lean body type, and movement.

                  Not flaming - we don't breed QHs anymore, got out in 91 and will likely (unless we buy a mare and she happens to be foal) ever breed any mares of any breed again. But within the breed - you can have it all - beefcake to twiggy..cows to dressage, reining to racing..and they can all be registered QHs.

                  If you are an oldtimer - you might remember a horse called Blackburn..nice athletic horse that was foundation stock - we owned a mare that was a granddaughter of that horse, she could do everything including jump..she could also cut cows and was known to "work" them on her own out in the pasture if they were intruding on her space. Really nice old mare and yep, again, nice does not a broodmare make (exceptional yes, nice no) so she was never bred and died in her late 20's. Old mare toted many children round the ring, then the grownups in the jumpers and the teens in rodeos..just a good old all arounder that was sound till she died.

                  Anyway she also had that big butt, massive muscled gaskin, long neck but had a head to beat the band, personally I like the head to fit the body - in her case, it took a XL bridle..lol and she was a smallish QH at 14.2.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    IMO- this is a product of the past 20-30 yrs. of selective breeding and genetics. I've been around some of these big, beefy horses and not one of them was given steroids. They are conditioned to make the most of their genes and although this may appeal to some it's repulsive to others, but really no different than the selective breeding that's occurred within other breeds of horses.

                    Personally, I like a good lookin' QH, but one that's built to perform and be athletic besides just having the muscling. And my only real qualm with this type of halter breeding is the decrease that's followed along the genes in correlation to the size of their feet. Any horse needs to have a good sized foot underneath them to carry the weight of their bodies, along with the intended use of the horse, and the decrease in the size of their hooves through the years (and this type of selective breeding) is what destines them to developing foot problems, ie; navicular syndrome.

                    And again, as for this type of 'look', it's all determinant on what individuals want their horses to look like. JMHO

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      I've got a couple of QH mares that I bought as "dual purpose" horses - they are riding horses and will be broodmares. They are halter bred and are big girls, but they do everything - reining, pleasure, cow work, trail, etc. They are more like the foundation QH should be - big and beautiful yet extremely athletic. Not all halter horses are worthless. Wanted to add that by big I don't mean tall. The tallest of the 2 is about 15.2 : )
                      Lapeer ... a small drinking town with a farming problem.
                      Proud Closet Canterer!

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        The scary thing is the breeding N/H and H/H horses...... yikes.... no thanks.

                        It is sad, without the freakish muscling that could be a really pretty mare.
                        We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by sidepasser View Post
                          No you aren't the only old timer that remembers that when most Qhs didn't top 15 hands and 15.2 was considered "huge"..and most were bulldoggy and very athletic with big ole heads - lol..then over the years, more and more TB blood until now there are some QHs that one can't tell the horse is EVEN a QH except on paper..look just like Tbs with the same amount of height, lean body type, and movement.
                          I'm not sure I understand--one complaint: QHs are too beefy and muscled. They used to be able to work and now just stand there looking big.

                          Another complaint: QHs are too much like TBs (tall and thin). They used to be able to work and now just stand there looking thin.

                          Which is it?

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by BravAddict View Post
                            I reiterate...

                            Why does one breed horses that cannot be ridden?

                            What is the mental process there? What happens if the horse doesn't succeed? What if the horse is sold? Where do they go? What do they do for the next twenty years? Who takes care of them?

                            This is a question of ethics. I am thoroughly intolerant of moral relativism and saying that making horses with a diminished chance of a high quality of life is okay just because "different strokes for different folks" stinks of bad ethics.

                            No. It is *not* the same. The WBFSH did a survey of what 19 of the sporthorse registries include in their summarized breeding aim. Health, soundness, or durability was EXPLICITLY mentioned in the aim of over HALF of them.
                            When asked to rank traits by importance (jumping ability, gaits, conformation, dressage ability, behavior, etc), the BWP, FWB, NRPS, and GOV rated "Health" highest. Among all the traits and all the registries, "Health" was overall more important than competition in driving, competition in eventing, competition in dressage, temperament, and fertility.

                            Danish Warmbloods: "A riding horse with a big performance ability in either dressage or show jumping, able to compete at international level. The horse is noble, sizeable and subtle with good health in use and high reproductive
                            ability."

                            Bavarian Warmbloods: "Riding horse that performs well in the sport disciplines dressage, show jumping and eventing with an elegant conformation and willingness to work, a reliable temperament, a good health, a high durability and a good fertility."

                            Oldenburg: "A noble, generously lined, high performing sport horse with active impulsion and space gaining, elastic movements which, because of its predisposition, is permanently suitable for any type of sport (dressage,
                            show jumping, eventing, driving)."

                            http://www.wbfsh.org/docs/koenen.pdf
                            The survey and it's results. I compare those attitudes with those expressed by the AQHA in their mission statement. Where do they express a commitment to producing healthy horses? Where do they express a sense of responsibility? Is ANYONE here going to *really* truly tell me that the attitude of the halter world is just as ethically sound as that of the registries I just mentioned?

                            There is NOTHING in this world to keep a powerful, athletic horse from having the structural integrity to be sound and safe and happy his whole life (meaning USEFUL). Except, evidently, for the attitude that "This is my property and I'll do with it what I please, and because I am entitled, nobody can tell me differently."

                            Clarification...this is not about the work involved. I believe that there are JUST as many people out there breeding for sound, useful western riding/working horses as there are breeding for sound, useful sporthorses. Just so this doesn't become about English vs. Western or something.

                            Flame away.

                            I am curious as to how much time you have spent with top QH halter trainers/barns to say that no halter horses are ever ridden?

                            I think you are kind of going out on a limb when you say these horses aren't bred to be ridden...just because they start out life as a halter star doesn't mean they never see a saddle. Nor are they abused or subject to any worse quality of life than any other breed that is exhibited.

                            The breed is very versatile...you have your leggy 16.3hh QH hunter stars, you have your fatty halter horses, you have your function over form cowhorses, etc. In my life thus far I have yet to come across a QH who was only suited to one thing and one thing only...if one discipline doesn't work out then there are 20 others to try.

                            So you raise a QH to be shown in halter and it doesn't work out...big deal - you find one of the many other things he is suited for - reining, western pleasure, cow horse, etc.

                            What is the mental process there? What happens if the horse doesn't succeed? What if the horse is sold? Where do they go? What do they do for the next twenty years? Who takes care of them?
                            This quote is kind of silly, it's like saying, what if your Warmblood turns out to be a puke under saddle, it moves like a sack of bricks and can't jump a foot...big deal. What do you do? You find something else for it to do - even if its just giving the horse to someone who doesn't show or doesn't care about movement/conformation...so your failed halter QH's are no different.

                            Here is part of the AQHA mission statement..

                            "To record and preserve the pedigrees of the American Quarter Horse while maintaining the integrity of the breed."

                            Integrity of the breed obviously has to encompass health...
                            Originally posted by barka.lounger
                            u get big old crop and bust that nags ass the next time it even slow down.

                            we see u in gp ring in no time.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by kellyb View Post
                              Here is part of the AQHA mission statement..

                              "To record and preserve the pedigrees of the American Quarter Horse while maintaining the integrity of the breed."
                              The interesting thing about that statement is that there's no uniformity within the breed as you pointed out in your comment about leggy hunter types versus fatty halter types. There is certainly versatility within the breed, but many of the horses are not bred for versatility.
                              "I did know once, only I've sort of forgotten." - Winnie the Pooh

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Aggie4Bar View Post
                                The interesting thing about that statement is that there's no uniformity within the breed as you pointed out in your comment about leggy hunter types versus fatty halter types. There is certainly versatility within the breed, but many of the horses are not bred for versatility.
                                Well, just because there are different types doesn't mean that they can't do more than just one thing. Some of your stockier ranch-type horses may only be suited to western events - but there are so many things you can do within western...reining, cow, pleasure, trail, etc. The huntery type QH's may be a little too long and leggy to get around a barrel quickly, but they can double as western pleasure/riding horses, etc.
                                Originally posted by barka.lounger
                                u get big old crop and bust that nags ass the next time it even slow down.

                                we see u in gp ring in no time.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by mayhew View Post
                                  I'm not sure I understand--one complaint: QHs are too beefy and muscled. They used to be able to work and now just stand there looking big.

                                  Another complaint: QHs are too much like TBs (tall and thin). They used to be able to work and now just stand there looking thin.

                                  Which is it?
                                  The breed has changed from short (13.3 to 14.3) bulldog type that was bred to work cows, do ranch work, etc. and racing at the 1/4 mile (hence the name) to tall, leggy, hunterish types that couldn't hold a cow if it had to. But because there is such diversity within the breed, and the "old style" QH was getting bred out in favor of TB body with QH brains, the NFQHA was established to preserve the old lines QHs. Many old style QH breeders have joined this new association in order to preserve the talents/abilities/bloodlines of the old QHs before it is diluted beyond redemption.

                                  halter horses that never ride is a myth - I have a halter mare - she rode my big old butt yesterday, and we did trot sets and pole work. However, some people choose not to ride or cannot ride and handling halter horses allows them to have a horse life beyond TV and DVDs. There are some halter horses out there, just like other types and breeds, that have been ruined by bad breeding (hoof size too small, or too musclebound to move) but the majority of halter horses could be ridden if the owner wanted to ride them. Depends on the owner I suppose.

                                  No one I don't believe said anything about the tall thin horses just standing there looking thin - what was said was those types of QHs (because they are a type within the breed) cannot do the functional work that the original QH was known for - handling cows, heavy ranch work. I suppose there are a few that could, but most at less than 1,000 lbs would get yanked off their hooves and those that are too tall, just can't get in the dirt to do the work. Kinda like asking my TB to cut cows- he might try but would be a total failure because he isn't built for the job. These tall lean types can't get down and low, don't have the muscling and weight to hold a steer. But there were people who loved the QH mind but wanted a TB look, so the horses were infused with lots of TB blood and there ya go -long, lanky, lean, hunters and dressage types within the original QH breed.

                                  What old time QH people hate to see is the breed being one extreme (so heavily muscled it can't move) or so tall and lanky it no longer resembles a QH at all. A happy medium would be nice, but alas..it's the most popular breed registry I believe in the world..so now there is something for everyone, and those that want to preserve the old "do it all" horses now have a registry for doing so.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Ah. Thanks for the explanation.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      RE: whether HYPP causes big muscles ...

                                      HYPP is associated with bigger muscling. I don't think anyone knows for sure whether the disease known as HYPP and larger muscling is caused by the SAME genetic mutation, or to mutations that tend to be inherited together. Impressive was a popular sire because he passed on the genetic tendency toward muscling. Look here for a breed of cattle (Belgian Blue) with "double muscling" due to genetics:

                                      http://preview.tinyurl.com/7gyst

                                      I don't know whether Belgian Blues get a HYPP-like disease, just showing that massive muscling can be inherited in a fairly simple genetic manner.

                                      Here is a good site on HYPP: http://www.tufts.edu/vet/sports/hypp.html
                                      ...somewhere between the talent and the potato....

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by mayhew View Post
                                        I'm not sure I understand--one complaint: QHs are too beefy and muscled. They used to be able to work and now just stand there looking big.

                                        Another complaint: QHs are too much like TBs (tall and thin). They used to be able to work and now just stand there looking thin.

                                        Which is it?
                                        It's both

                                        My biggest problem with the big halter horses isn't really the muscle mass, but the leg conformation a lot of those horses seem to be blessed with.

                                        The too-tall-too-thin looking QH's seem just as strange to me, honestly.

                                        I think because the QH does so many different disciplines, and people want to do well in those disciplines, they are breeding to extremes depending on what they compete in, so different branches of the breed are reaching new extremes. So you have short, overly muscley post-legged halter horses, way too tall with oddly proportioned legs and body and skinny necked HUS horses, and a variety in between. It's almost as if they need to split the registry into sections, giving each type its own studbook or something.


                                        Personally I like the cutting/roping bred QHs the best, but I'm wacky that way
                                        "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                                        My CANTER blog.

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Anselcat View Post
                                          Look here for a breed of cattle (Belgian Blue) with "double muscling" due to genetics:

                                          http://preview.tinyurl.com/7gyst

                                          I don't know whether Belgian Blues get a HYPP-like disease, just showing that massive muscling can be inherited in a fairly simple genetic manner.
                                          As far as I know from what I've been taught - they don't show any problems such as HYPP. But then again, most of the belgian blues don't stay around long enough to find out...
                                          Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.

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