PA Dog laws: I was chased tonight

[colleent]

Whatever your remedy may be - the fact that remains is this. The OP was not "chased" - she allowed herself to get carted by her horse. Had they stood their ground and not panicked, there would not now be a problem that warrants remedial training.

dogs barking and running at you is NOT being chased? then what IS?

[colleent]

Depending on the dog (let alone the owner ) this could be remarkably ill-advised. Be prepared for extensive plastic surgery.

Stay on the horse and train your horse to deal with dogs. You'll never be able to control other people's actions (regardless of the laws), you'll never be able to wholly control the environment, all you can do is train and desensitize your own horse as much as possible.

as i stated, if my horse is in danger, i'll do whatever i can to keep him safe.

[3fatponies]

Whatever your remedy may be - the fact that remains is this. The OP was not "chased" - she allowed herself to get carted by her horse. Had they stood their ground and not panicked, there would not now be a problem that warrants remedial training.

Excellent point, as it pretty much sums it all up.

[Synrgystyk]

dogs barking and running at you is NOT being chased? then what IS?

Dogs bark and run all the time, regardless of whether they're "chasing" something. The dogs are only chasing if the quarry is running. That isn't to say that dogs won't bark/run in hopes of provoking a chase, but they can't chase something that isn't moving.

According to the OP (just reread it), the horse pivoted and bolted when the dogs started coming towards it. The poster doesn't say anything about the dogs actually chasing her once the horse took off, just that the dogs ran towards her and (it seems) the noise spooked her horse.

In the OP's situation *as described* I'd be getting after my horse for misbehaving (the bolting -- spooking at something crashing towards you in the woods is ok, but taking off and ignoring me isn't) and using the situation as a training opportunity. It's normal and an instinctive reaction for any horse to spook when a noisy "something" (deer, dog, bunny, person) approaches through the woods. But the horse needs to learn to listen to the rider and not continue the spook with "bolt," "buck," or something equally hazardous.

The first time my horse and I met up with barking, opportunistic (opportunistic = they'd probably have enjoyed a chase if we ran) dogs, I taught him that chasing dogs makes them back off. (His initial reaction was of the spin/run variety but he was only able to complete the initial "spin" and, in his defense, he was very green and it was our first trail ride by ourselves.) Nowadays, apparently an overturned kiddie pool in the middle of a lawn is far scarier than anything crashing towards him through the woods.

Should the local yokel have had his dogs leashed? Possibly, depending on area-specific laws. Should they have been under better control? Probably (but the OP didn't say that he wasn't able to control them, just that they ran towards her while barking -- a normal dog behavior). But trail riding, by its very nature, is an activity full of "unknowns" and if we're going to ride on trails we need to have the knowledge, skills, and tools to deal with our horses' reactions to "unknowns."

Lorree

[DieBlaueReiterin]

i think the guy was totally in the wrong. for what it's worth, the law in PA *IS* that you can shoot loose dogs if they come at you. i went thru a very similar situation a couple weeks ago with a very green young pony and a rider ended up getting caught in a fence (this was on our own property, mind you). if i'd had a gun, i would've killed the dogs. i'm considering getting a gun license for just this reason. dogs barking and running at animals is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR. is it normal/okay for dogs to run and bark at people walking down the street, or hiking thru the woods? no?? then why on earth is it ok for them to bark and run at people on horseback??? that is complete nonsense. if your dogs are so badly behaved that they run and bark at anything that moves, you have a serious problem, and they should NOT be loose. what a bunch of bull.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

i think the guy was totally in the wrong. for what it's worth, the law in PA *IS* that you can shoot loose dogs if they come at you. i went thru a very similar situation a couple weeks ago with a very green young pony and a rider ended up getting caught in a fence (this was on our own property, mind you). if i'd had a gun, i would've killed the dogs. i'm considering getting a gun license for just this reason. dogs barking and running at animals is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR. is it normal/okay for dogs to run and bark at people walking down the street, or hiking thru the woods? no?? then why on earth is it ok for them to bark and run at people on horseback??? that is complete nonsense. if your dogs are so badly behaved that they run and bark at anything that moves, you have a serious problem, and they should NOT be loose. what a bunch of bull.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

dogs barking and running at animals is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR. is it normal/okay for dogs to run and bark at people walking down the street, or hiking thru the woods? no??

Well, yeah, actually around here it's pretty much par for the course.

No one here keeps their dogs fenced, and yes, I think it's pretty much normal behavior for a dog to run and bark at an animal (bipedal or quadrupedal) approaching its territory. Around here, most of the farmers see this as a good thing and don't discourage the behavior.

IME, dogs are a lot like cops. Act like you're supposed to be there and know what you're doing, and they'll leave you alone. Act scared or suspicious and you have their full and undivided attention.

I have a few canine-american neighbors who still run alongside barking at me - but that's all they do. So I just keep walking. Most of 'em fall in and go for a walk with me, tails wagging and big happy grins on their faces. Which kind of cheeses off some of their owners.

I've had one dog, a part of the pack I mentioned earlier, leap up and snap at my horse's nose. I'll admit, had I been alone, I'd have dismounted and done my best to kick the attitude out of him, because he threatened my horse and I was mad. As it was, I was with too many other people, one of whom would've had to deal with the repercussions from the dog's owner (who wouldn't have faced me down but would have found some sneaky way to get revenge on my friend). So I kept going. My horse didn't even look like he noticed. In retrospect, that was probably the best way to handle it.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

IME, dogs are a lot like cops. Act like you're supposed to be there and know what you're doing, and they'll leave you alone. Act scared or suspicious and you have their full and undivided attention.

i dunno how true that is. i've been chased by dogs for no apparent reason, on my own street, where i def wasn't acting suspicious or scared, just minding my own business. that's not ok. i wouldn't let my animals run around chasing people. there are leash laws for a reason.

and talk about timely-i just picked up a local newspaper someone left sitting over here and there's a big article on the front page:

TRESPASSING HUNTER SHOT MY DOG, SAYS LOCAL WOMAN

A romp in the woods turned deadly for a beloved family pet tuesday afternoon. 3 hunters shot max, a 2yo rottweiler, near his family's barn just off rte. 209 east of brodheadsville.

owner tory warner heard a shot followed by a yelp from her dog. two more shots were fired as she ran up the dirt road from the barn. warner found the dog bloodied but still breathing in the middle of the road. she saw the hunters heading for their vehicles.

"i went chasing after them. i was screaming at them," said warner, still distraught over the shooting.

max was so badly injured-shot in the head, shoulder and stomach-that he was euthanized at brodheadsville vet clinic.

the shooting is a grim warning for families who let pets roam in the woods. *STATE POLICE TOLD WARNER THEY WILL NOT FILE CHARGES BECAUSE THE DOG WAS NOT TIED.*

warner said max was kept leashed unless she was outside with him.

neighbor rob sawada, who lives next to warner's property, said max was a friendly dog who would run up the hill to play with sawada's 3 children. "he was always welcome," sawada said thursday. "he wasn't a mean dog."

*warner said the hunters told her they didn't know whether max was going to bite them or lick them.* "I think what they're saying is a bunch of crap," said sawada. "i guess some hunters think if there's a dog in the area and it's chasing their deer-shoot it."

sawada said the hunters were on his property when the shooting occurred. the land is posted with yellow signs, and sawada expects hungers to ask for permission to venture there. "there won't be anymore hunting [here]. not even people i know," he said.

warner, wearing a blaze orange coat, said she'll keep vigil at her barn because she fears for the safety of her other animals: 2 dogs, 5 cats and 2 horses.

"it's like they don't care that it's private property," she said, "our place is posted like crazy. i ran hunters off the property yesterday [wednesday]."

warner's against trespassing, not hunting. "i'm a hunter, respecftul hunter....[These hunters] shot him for the fun of it. there was no reason."

the state game warden who is investigating the shooting could not be reached for comment thursday.

---
now, while i feel horrible for the poor dog, this was the woman's fault. her dog should not have been running loose. it was admitedly on someone else's property when it happened, someone's property that it regulary "ran up the hill" to get to. how safe is that? why would you leave your dog loose to run around when you knew there were hunters? and for her to say they shot it for no reason...they gave her a reason. they didn't know whether it was going to bite or lick. yeah, that's scary. when a dog you don't know is running up to you barking...for many people, again, that is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR and they're liable to lash out at the dog however they can. no, the hunters should not have been trespassing on the neighbor's property (if in fact they were trespassing..it doesn't say specifically whether they were, just that the owner expected hunters to get permission. we don't know whether these particular hunters had permission or not). just another reason to KEEP YOUR DOGS LEASHED OR FENCED. god. what is so hard about that???

[3fatponies]

now, while i feel horrible for the poor dog, this was the woman's fault. her dog should not have been running loose...KEEP YOUR DOGS LEASHED OR FENCED. god. what is so hard about that???

Amen, sister, AMEN!!!

[redponyrider]

I live in PA, and there are quite large sections, often wooded, where it is completely legal to let your dog off leash for training or hunting-- the dog is expected to be under your control, but if you're training, sometimes the dogs are not quite, but hopefully in the future. I take my dogs out to these areas fairly often to work on off-leash training, as do other people. I expect my dogs to alarm bark if they see someone approaching, whether at home or out in the woods. I'd be really quite upset if someone shot at, whipped at, or struck at, one of my dogs just because they barked at and ran towards a stranger. In fact, if you struck or shot one of my dogs I'd get you arrested for animal abuse. Feel free to growl out a loud "no get away" though, or even better, say HI doggy in a friendly voice.
There is a really big difference between having a dog actually chase a horse with predatory intent, and a dog sounding the alarm to his owner about the presence of a stranger. If your horse bolts when a dog barks and runs towards the horse, what are you going to do on the many trails that run past people's backyards, where this is going to happen over and over again?

[Synrgystyk]

DieBlaueReiterin,

You're comparing entirely different situations. You describe dogs chasing a horse (pony) *on your property* and I think many states allow you to shoot a dog that is chasing livestock *on your property*. (I'd likely shoot a dog in this situation.) The OP described dogs barking and running towards her *on public land* and I'm not sure the law is equally permissive about discharging firearms on public property. Besides, in the OP's situation, her horse spun and bolted out of control; that's not an acceptable reaction whether the noisy approacher is a dog, person, deer, or anything else one might encounter in the woods.

You're also confusing normal canine behavior (barking/running/chasing) with acceptable behavior. Dogs are predators -- it's normal for them to chase. We're lucky that they're enough removed from their lupine ancestors that they bark while they run. The true predator will stalk silently, wait, and only run (silently) when there's a good chance of catching the prey. Is it acceptable for the dog to exhibit a particular behavior (running, barking, chasing, sniffing, rolling in something nasty)? With the exception of rolling in something nasty, that depends on the situation.

You asked if it was "normal/okay" for dogs to run and bark at people walking down the street or hiking in the woods. Whether it's "okay" is debatable, but if you're walking along the edge of what the dog considers to be its territory, it's entirely normal for that dog to bark to tell you or any stranger (animal or person) to stay out of its territory. Is it normal in a hiking situation? For some dogs it's normal to bark for any reason (or none at all).

Is it ok for dogs to bark and run at people on horseback? Probably not. But is it normal? Maybe. It's within the range of normal reactions for dogs to bark at the unknown -- if the dog has never seen a horse and rider before (or has never seen the rider separate from the horse) then how likely is it that he's capable of discerning that it's a person atop an animal and not some huge, scary, unknown predator and deserving of being warned off?

Dogs also aren't behaving badly by running and barking at "anything that moves." Predators chase movement. However, a dog that continues to run/bark/chase after being recalled by its owner is definitely misbehaving and should be on a leash.

Understand, I'm not condoning dogs chasing livestock on anyone's property nor am I condoning dog owners disobeying leash laws. But I also don't condone horse owners/riders who expect the world to screech to a standstill just so their horses won't spook. (Not saying the anyone espoused this philosophy on this thread, but I'm sure we can all relate.)

However, from the vehemence of your post you come across as having a chip on your shoulder regarding dogs. You're going from the OP's described situation of dogs barking and running towards her while she was trail riding to dogs chasing livestock on private property to dogs barking at people walking down the street or hiking in the woods.

While I am not a "dog person," and particularly dislike noisy dogs, I try to not to condemn a dog for being a dog. I'll quickly condemn the owner for failing to train or control his dog, but if the owner doesn't bother to teach the dog that its normal behavior is not always acceptable, it's not the dog's fault. (Doesn't mean *I* won't tell the dog that *I* don't accept that behavior -- and it'll be just as dead for chasing livestock on my property. But it's ultimately the dog owner's fault for not training or restraining his dog.)

I also don't condemn a horse for being a horse. It's normal for horses to spook at the unknown (they're prey animals), buck and play when they're feeling good, and establish a "pecking order" in the herd. It's up to the owners/riders to train the horse to "spook in place," refrain from bucking/playing under saddle, and treat the human as "alpha." And, yes, I'll discipline the horse if that unwanted behavior affects me. (Just because your owner lets you invade her space doesn't mean you can run me over on the ground.)

Hmm...this has gotten a bit more lengthy than planned.... Anyway, let's not turn this thread into a diatribe against all dogs.

Anyone have any good techniques for "de-spooking" a horse? With my horse, since he's more likely to spook at inanimate objects *and* we event, if he spooks at it he has to jump it (if it's jumpable). Apparently, in his mind, if it's a jump it's "fun" (regardless of how many scary decorations surround it) and not "spookable." Yes, this means we jump some very strange objects (most of them rather small and unassuming -- like kiddie pools and errant fence rails).

Lorree

[DieBlaueReiterin]

If your horse bolts when a dog barks and runs towards the horse, what are you going to do on the many trails that run past people's backyards, where this is going to happen over and over again?

there is a BIG DIFFERENCE btwn a dog running a fenceline, freaking out in his pen, or scratching against a window and a dog who is LOOSE and running at a horse barking.

also, why would you be mad if your dog DIDN'T bark at a "stranger" on public property/in a public forest??? that makes no sense. it's public, it's going to be FULL of strangers. it's NOT the dog's territory. if the dog didn't bark when someone came into your yard, yeah, of course, that would be odd. but why on earth would you allow/encourage your dog to bark at strangers on public property who have just as much of a right as you do to be on that property and enjoy it without being harrassed by a strange dog??? i just don't see the logic there...?

[3fatponies]

Anyone have any good techniques for "de-spooking" a horse?

Great post, btw. I like to use target fixation to deal with spooks--it seems to work really well if the rider stays confident.

[Tiger Horse]

To clarify - I'm not saying they were hunting. But consider this: in Illinois what we in PA call State Game Lands, they call Forest Preserve (I used to live in IL). You can use Forest Preserve land for dog training all year round - which means dogs are allowed to be off leash on Forest Preserve land, so if you're riding there, you can certainly come across legally unleashed dogs even if it's not hunting season, and because it's designated "dog training" the dogs can be suburban pet yappy dogs and not necessarily hunting dogs (ime, hunting dogs usually are not a problem around horses: hounds are used to them, and so are bird dogs; it's the pet people who cause the problems). So people let their dogs have a run, and if asked, can always say they're 'training.'

I live in Illinois and ride the Forest Preserve Trails of Cook County almost daily - there is a leash law - this applies to all Cook County trails except Beck Lake. Dogs can be off leash there; however, a permit is required (horses are not allowed there). Might be different in other counties.

I try to be friendly to all the bikers, hikers and dog walkers we meet and gently remind them to stop when approaching horses and leash their dogs - this is for their safety, as well as mine. Most people just don't understand how horses might react . . .

Funniest thing I ever saw was a little dog, some kind of yorkshire terrier mix, that turned tail and took off running when it saw Kerry and I approaching. Of course, it was not on a leash. Owner was a heavy set gentlemen who proceeded to chase dog - now granted, the little thing was running like mad, but not really going very fast - owner huffing and puffing behind. Finally came to a downed tree limb and stopped - owner scooped up and stepped aside so we could get by - I so wanted to make a comment about how handy a leash would have been . . . I just smiled and waved instead.

[redponyrider]

because I've met a few really creepy men out there in the woods and would prefer that they were highly aware I had big dogs with me. The off-leash dog parts are generally quite deserted, not crawling with people as you suggest. On leash the dogs aren't allowed to bark at strangers.

We have many yards with invisible fences around here-- dog running at you barking, you never know if it's loose or not. Sometimes you don't even know if it's in a yard or not. Best to just train your horse to ignore dogs.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

KEEP YOUR DOGS LEASHED OR FENCED. god. what is so hard about that???

Oh, I agree. None of mine are ever, ever, outdoors off lead - except my border collie, who has a recall that hasn't failed yet. But she's never outside unless I'm with her. Otherwise I'd wind up with all the neighbor's livestock.

However, all dogs leashed or fenced just ain't gonna happen. The very idea of fencing or leashing is as foreign to most of my neighbors as dressing the dogs up in little pink tu-tu's and sending them to ballet class.

So I've just stopped worrying about it. I do what I can with the critters I have a modicum of control over. I planned my farm so I have plenty of riding room around my own property, and I won't venture off it until the horse is as dog-proof as possible. And I try and bicycle or walk the route I'll be riding first. That way I can get to know the canines I'll likely encounter before introducing an equine.

[Huntertwo]

Yes, it is a good idea to desensitize your horse to stand still for dogs.

BUT, at the same time I'd feel horrible if my pony trusted me, stood still and she got seriously bit.

[appaloosalady]

there is a BIG DIFFERENCE btwn a dog running a fenceline, freaking out in his pen, or scratching against a window and a dog who is LOOSE and running at a horse barking.

also, why would you be mad if your dog DIDN'T bark at a "stranger" on public property/in a public forest??? that makes no sense. it's public, it's going to be FULL of strangers. it's NOT the dog's territory. if the dog didn't bark when someone came into your yard, yeah, of course, that would be odd. but why on earth would you allow/encourage your dog to bark at strangers on public property who have just as much of a right as you do to be on that property and enjoy it without being harrassed by a strange dog??? i just don't see the logic there...?

Do you think the horse is going to know the difference? A barking, running dog behind a fence is going to be just as scary to a horse that hasn't been desensitized to it. Bolting is unacceptable behavior no matter what the reason is behind it. Spooking and taking a few steps, I'll deal with, but bolting is a serious respect issue and should be dealt with instead of worrying about someone letting their dogs bark at you.

As Redpony said - I want my dog to bark when we are out on public land to alert me of someone's presence AND let them know I have a dog with me. When my dog and I are out, I am his territory and he will defend me. He will also stop barking as soon as I tell him to.

[c5rose]

OK, as the OP, I'd like to clarify a few things:

We WERE being chased in thick woods. The dogs continued to run after my horse and I as I heard the dog's owner yelling for them to return. They did, after about 200 feet.

Hunting is illegal in these woods, as it's only about a 30 acre parcel with neighborhoods all around it. In the middle is a ball field for children. So, no, they were not hunting.

In PA, I know dogs are to be leashed at all times, with a few exceptions (service dogs, hunting, etc.). I originally wrote the owner would be liable for any injury I may have sustained, and someone shamed me for this. I'm not a law-suit happy person (never been involved in one), but it's true; His dogs were not under his control.

Any dog chasing a person or domestic animal can be legally shot, whether on private or public property.

My horses are greatly desensitised to dogs, bikes, trampolines, deer, screaming, fireworks, cars and much more, thanks to the macadamed bike trail directly next to their pasture, and thanks to the two giant children-heavy neighborhoods surround our property. They're around dogs quite often - sometimes in their pasture. My horse initially spooked in place - which is what exactly he should have done. Only when the dogs started barking and chasing US did he run away. Tell me what horse would stand still? Or better yet, run towards them? Again, it was thick, thick brush. It's not like my horse saw how many dogs there were or what direction they were coming from.

After reading so many negative things about the training of my horse, I almost feel I need to defend myself here. Perhaps I do need to work on spooking in place more. Or having barking animals run at them where they can't see. It's true no horse is bomb-proof, but show me the horse that would stand in the situation I was in, other than a police horse.

[appaloosalady]

How long did he keep running after the dogs stopped? No horse is bombproof, but they should be stopable unless in a complete, eyes rolled back terror. We ride past many yards with invisible fence and BIG, loud dogs. To tell the truth it scares me sometimes, but the horses just walk by like there is nothing to it and will turn and go towards the dogs if we ask them to. I know this is different than having dogs come at you from out of sight and I don't blame your horse for being spooked, I just have zero tolerance for bolters.