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Spin-off: animal neglect/cruelty laws open to interpretation?

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  • #21
    I become nervous whenever I hear the "care" word used in a law enforcement context. Animal Control IS law enforcement. As soon an an officer allows their emotion to enter a matter the temptation to "do right" will arise. Thankfully most officers control themselves, but I've been party to many instances where they have not. Sometimes it even went as far as "jack booted storm trooper" behavior on the part of the officer. Most of the time it's usually just a bit of "fudging" of facts. Still, any "fudging" will likely end up as perjury and that's always a Bad Thing.

    Again, emotions have to be left in the station house or the risk to the civil rights of an accused can become very serious.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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    • #22
      I have to correct you that Animal Control is not law enforcement everywhere.
      In most parts of Florida, for example, Animal Control officers are civilian employees with no arrest powers and no authority other than the issuance of civil citations. They have no law enforcement training or authority, no arrest powers, do not carry firearms, only have yellow lights on their trucks and so on.

      Anything else, they need to call the real police/sheriff, and we can go from there as we see fit.

      That is one thing that the animal rights zealots are using in their favor, most people do not realize that in many areas animal control officers and/or humane investigators or whatever they call themselves are not law enforcement and have no more authority than anyone else.
      "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

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      • #23
        In TN civilians appointed by the president of any society incorporated for the prevention of cruelty to animals may, within their county, make arrests and bring accused persons before a court. (TN Statues 39-14-210(a)). This is limited in the case of livestock by 39-14-211.

        Even civil offenses can have consequences. Can a person in FL be jailed if they fail to pay a fine levied?

        G.
        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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        • #24
          cowgirljenn --

          You just gave me an idea.

          Wouldn't a registry of the NAMES and offices of officeholders who repeatedly refuse to act on animal abuse complaints be a really great thing? A web page, of course, broken out state by state and county by county.

          The only way to change this inaction is to make it a career-limiting move. The next step after tracking and identifying the bad apples is encouraging better candidates to oppose the local Foghorn T. Leghorn who won't prosecute his buddies or piss off this or that potential voter.

          If I had a dollar for every complaint of animal control inaction that appears to be in some way politically motivated (or motivated by ignorance) I would be a rich woman.

          Hmmmmmm.
          I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
          I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Lori B View Post

            You just gave me an idea.

            Wouldn't a registry of the NAMES and offices of officeholders who repeatedly refuse to act on animal abuse complaints be a really great thing? A web page, of course, broken out state by state and county by county.

            The only way to change this inaction is to make it a career-limiting move. The next step after tracking and identifying the bad apples is encouraging better candidates to oppose the local Foghorn T. Leghorn who won't prosecute his buddies or piss off this or that potential voter.
            Sounds like a way to get sued.

            Or at least have somebody visit you in the middle of the night for a little "attitude adjustment".

            Depending on where you live...

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Lori B View Post
              cowgirljenn --

              You just gave me an idea.

              Wouldn't a registry of the NAMES and offices of officeholders who repeatedly refuse to act on animal abuse complaints be a really great thing? A web page, of course, broken out state by state and county by county.

              The only way to change this inaction is to make it a career-limiting move. The next step after tracking and identifying the bad apples is encouraging better candidates to oppose the local Foghorn T. Leghorn who won't prosecute his buddies or piss off this or that potential voter.

              If I had a dollar for every complaint of animal control inaction that appears to be in some way politically motivated (or motivated by ignorance) I would be a rich woman.

              Hmmmmmm.
              Oh, an "enemies list."

              Why do I hear the Shade of Richard Nixon roaring with laughter?

              G.
              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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              • #27
                Guilherme,
                yes eventually they could, but a judge would have to issue a warrant first. That almost never happens on civil citations unless it is something very serious, like a car accident involving an injury or in the case of animals, a serious cruelty case, in which case the animal control officers would have called the police and the person would have been arrested instead of receiving a ticket.

                In FL, it would seem as though we have more checks and balances. Shelters can't just go around appointing animal control officers etc. The Animal Controls in FL are a government entity (run by the city or county of whatever) and people have to apply for the job just as any other city employee, then go through the training etc so there isn't this "I appoint you in my area, go forth and prosper" that there seems to be in other areas. Just any yahoo who opens up a shelter can't go around anointing Animal Control officers (and I have to say that is really scary).

                They are civilian employees with about the same amount of authority as a meter maid. Period.

                FL also has some of the most stringent and demanding standards for law enforcement certification and not too many sheriffs are willing to stick their neck out and deputize civilian untrained personnel with arrest powers. There are a few places where a retired police officer/deputy has gone to work for Animal Control as their investigator and retained his certification and powers with the blessing of the sheriff, but there are only a few of those.

                THere are lots of private shelters and rescues that have what they like to call "humane investigators" but really what they are is a source of origination. People call them, they go look (maybe) and if it warrants it they call the police and we handle it since they have even less authority than the animal control officers. Although they are somewhat helpful since there is only one of me and they make a good set of eyes.
                "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

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                • #28
                  If someone calls XYZ county animal control to make a complaint they can document about animal care, and animal control won't investigate, repeatedly, how does that constitute an enemies list, or actionable slander?

                  The only thing that elected officials care about is getting re-elected. If they decided that domestic abuse wasn't something they felt like spending time or resources on (certainly a more common difficulty in the past than present, but still bad in some places), that's the kind of thing that local news would often really run with. But animals? Animal people care, others, not so much. So the thing to do is to make them care. Embarrass them, and encourage anyone running for office against them to take advantage of this issue.
                  I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                  I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Lori B View Post
                    cowgirljenn --

                    You just gave me an idea.

                    Wouldn't a registry of the NAMES and offices of officeholders who repeatedly refuse to act on animal abuse complaints be a really great thing? A web page, of course, broken out state by state and county by county.
                    I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for such a list - it would be likely to get you sued.

                    While it IS tempting to scream at those not doing the job you/I feel they should, I prefer to bite my lip and work to educate them. It doesn't always work.. but I had a case reported to me several years ago involving 20+ horses. One of our volunteers had a meeting set up with a detective to go over the case. I called the detective beforehand to introduce myself and the rescue and offer any assistance they might need. He said, "Well ma'am, you won't be assisting us. We'll be assisting you. You'll be doing the work". He went on to tell me how sometimes people thought horses were in bad shape but they weren't and how everyone didn't have the same standards of care. I told him I appreciated that and understand, and I mentioned my degrees. He softened a little but you could tell he still wasn't happy.

                    At the meeting, our volunteer showed him the photos of the horses, and he went to get a warrant the next morning and we worked together to get the horses seized. We had a meeting before court and he apologized to everyone involved for his poor attitude in the beginning. And years later, he and I are still on good terms. He calls me if he thinks he has a case that might need to go to a seizure to give me a heads up, and I call him when I hear complaints in his area. And he and I were recently the first two on the property of a repeat offender.

                    If I had been ugly with him, he would have shut me out and those horses wouldn't have gotten helped. And a lot of other horses wouldn't have gotten helped.

                    Sometimes the process to educate and work together is slow and can take years. But you have to see the big picture and keep working at it. I'm now working with counties who completely ignored me AND neglect cases in their county for years. I was polite but persistent and things slowly changed.

                    You have to balance your heart with your head when you are involved in rescue, especially neglect cases. And often you have to put aside your heart and work only from your head.
                    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

                    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
                      While it IS tempting to scream at those not doing the job you/I feel they should, I prefer to bite my lip and work to educate them.

                      He calls me if he thinks he has a case that might need to go to a seizure to give me a heads up, and I call him when I hear complaints in his area. And he and I were recently the first two on the property of a repeat offender.

                      If I had been ugly with him, he would have shut me out and those horses wouldn't have gotten helped. And a lot of other horses wouldn't have gotten helped.


                      You have to balance your heart with your head when you are involved in rescue, especially neglect cases. And often you have to put aside your heart and work only from your head.
                      Very well put. We all have to work together for a common good.
                      I have gone on cases where i wanted to grab the animal owner by the shoulders and shake them until their head fell off and rolled down the driveway. I have had cases where I really and truly did see nothing but red.
                      But you have to put that in a special pocket and save it for later, keep your cool, and do what needs to be done.
                      You are that animal's only voice, and more people listen to you if you speak quietly and clearly than if you yell and scream.

                      Then when you go home you can run around like a demon and clean your house, and vacuum, all the while screaming every nasty name and word you can think of and wishing all people who are mean to animals die horrible deaths.
                      those are the nights my husband goes out to his workshop for awhile.
                      "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Lori B View Post
                        If someone calls XYZ county animal control to make a complaint they can document about animal care, and animal control won't investigate, repeatedly, how does that constitute an enemies list, or actionable slander?
                        It doesn't. As long as you don't make any mistakes.

                        But be aware that there's an entire Byzantine legal world called "campaign finance law" out there. If your "public list" is done incorrectly you could be held criminally or civilily liable for election law violations.

                        IOW, free speech may not be so free.

                        G.
                        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          jenn, I appreciate that there are folks who can be educated, but it is equally clear that there is a significant number who appear to be uninterested in learning anything, other than how to get the public to leave them the hell alone. Being a scourge to such alleged public servants would be a real public service.
                          I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                          I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            You won't find a bigger bunch of crooks, shysters, liers, and miscreants than our country's very own Congresscritters. EVERYBODY knows what crooks, shysters, liars, and miscreants they are, and if that's not enough keep/get them out of office, there's not much some little list is going to do at the local animal control level beyond getting the list-maker in some very hot water one way or the other.

                            This list of Congresscritter's indiscretions was current as of several years ago -- no doubt it's much more lengthy now:
                            * 29 have been accused of spousal abuse
                            * 7 have been arrested for fraud
                            * 19 have been accused of writing bad checks
                            *117 have bankrupted at least two businesses
                            * 3 have been arrested for assault
                            * 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
                            * 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
                            * 8 have been arrested for shoplifting
                            * 21 are current defendants in lawsuits
                            *In 1998 alone, 84 were stopped for drunk driving

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by greysandbays View Post
                              .... This list of Congresscritter's indiscretions was current as of several years ago -- no doubt it's much more lengthy now:
                              * 29 have been accused of spousal abuse
                              * 7 have been arrested for fraud
                              * 19 have been accused of writing bad checks
                              *117 have bankrupted at least two businesses
                              * 3 have been arrested for assault
                              * 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
                              * 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
                              * 8 have been arrested for shoplifting
                              * 21 are current defendants in lawsuits
                              *In 1998 alone, 84 were stopped for drunk driving
                              I have no great opinion of anyone's politicians, but just being purely a devil's advocate here:
                              a) - anyone can be accused of anything - doesn't mean it is so;
                              b) - anyone can be arrested for anything - were they charged and convicted?
                              c) - ditto a;
                              d) - I'm not very financially literate - but this possibly means they aren't either - not necessarily that they are fraudulent or whatever
                              e) - ditto b;
                              f) - have you heard all the recent stories of identify theft - that's at least one way someone perfectly innocent can end up with bad credit;
                              g) - ditto b again;
                              h) - ditto b
                              i) - etc, etc
                              j) - again, were they found to be drunk driving, arrested, charged and convicted?

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Not the point of my idea or the original post.

                                The point is, if information (not rumor, but written reports, w/ photos of the horeses in question) exists that XYZ public servant repeatedly refuses to investigate or prosecute negligence and cruelty cases, then I propose that information to that effect be gathered and shared with any interested parties, ideally folks who want to run against their sorry a$$e$.

                                It would be interesting to find out if the incidence of alleged criminality among the legislature was in fact higher than among the general population. If I were a betting person, I would bet not.
                                I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                                I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

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