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  • #61
    This thread is amazing to me! Why don't all you people who want a decent job move to my area I paid a 14 y/o kid with NO horse experince $7 an hour and couldn't keep him! Mind you he could work whenever he wanted wanted and take off whenever he wanted. Go figure!
    Margaret/Maple Shade Farm
    www.mapleshadefarm.net

    Comment


    • #62
      Just thought I'd add my two cents in, as I've been on both sides of the fence. When younger, was one of those highly motivated workers, and money didn't matter, the experience and the learning did. Learned a lot, made no money, but put myself through college. Now enjoy a nice career (but can't afford horses here in NYC.)

      Labor is the same in all industries...you can never find enough quality, dedicated help for what you are williing to pay.

      Let's look at the horse industry and see what they are willing to pay, and I know the cost is passed on to boarders, who want everything for nothing.

      Say you pay $400 per week, and free housing. That nets to, say, $300 per week. The worker has a car, with payment and insurance that takes care of one paycheck. You don't provide health insurance, that takes care of another paycheck. That leaves $600 per month to buy food, clothes, save for a house, save for retirement, put the kids through school, and pay for airfare and hotel for that one weeks vacation....and I hope you see where I'm going. If all you have to offer is money, there is no incentive. If you have knowledge and advancement to offer, hopefully you can still attract dedicated employees willing to get up early, work late, and sweat like hell.

      And try saying thank you every now and then. You wouldn't believe how much it is appreciated.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by mst View Post
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by tbtrailrider
        they don't want someone too experienced,who may want to do things their own way..
        Perhaps I should rephrase that to " who they assume they will want to do things their own way"
        Believe me , I have learned that when it comes to horses there are 5 ways to do something, and ten ways not to, no matter what it is.
        I do see a difference in the type of facilities we may be talking about, my experience has been with big and small breeding farms, not show barns, well only one show barn/boarding barn. That job didn't last because I was getting paid 6 bucks an hour, to tack up horses and groom,and here comes the trainer with this 18 hand draft cross out of the field, proceeds to put him in the cross ties, gives him 2 cc's of Ace in the muscle,and tells me to body clip him. For 6 bucks an hour. I am aware that is a 100 dollar job, tell her as much, and leave.
        I realize I sound like I am whining here, but I am unemployed right now, and I suppose this thread hit a nerve....

        Comment


        • #64
          I've been at pretty much all the extremes. Of course, to me, having no college (yet--did the marry and have a baby thing first and am starting college in the spring) and little work experience outside of barns, I'm lucky to get more than min wage outside of a barn ($5.25 here). So the whole $10/hour is awesome pay for me. The problems I've run into at the (few) barns I've worked at for pay is that there just aren't enough hours to work. For example, I'm about to start at a stable back home (we're moving home this coming week after 5 years in the Army) making $7/hour, which is close to the highest pay I've ever gotten anywhere (which sucks, but again, I have no college yet), but will only get 20 hours/wk to start. However, that is going to be going up to 35 and I will get raises. So, to me, that's a dream job. I also have the chance to get more training, show the trainer's horses, and give lessons on the weekends. However, I've managed a stable where I was supposed to be getting lessons regularly and in several months only got 3, and almost no pay. I've also worked 50 hours/wk for one lesson per day. I've worked for people who were downright psycho and people who have treated me like family. I worked at one stable for crap pay, but got to ride pretty much whenever and whomever I wanted and the BO's husband cooked lunch for me every day. (That man could cook, lol!)
          What I've found from that is this. The ones that either a) paid well or b) didn't necessarily pay well but treated me well were the ones that I stayed with for as long as they needed me and worked my butt off for. The ones that didn't pay well and treated me like crap on top of it, I ended up either quitting or slacking off, then realizing I was slacking and quitting. If you want good barn help, treat them well (even just coming out and handing them a bottle of water if they look hot or a cup of cocoa if they look cold and thanking them for their work) and pay them well. Find out what other places in the area are paying (not barns, but actual businesses) and try to pay somewhere in that range. If you're able to pay better, DO! If not, then extras like free board or a few lessons on top of pay or, if it's a horseless person, then a few rides on your horses go a long way. If I'm the only one there and the barn owner or trainer just comes and stands outside the stall I'm mucking and talks to me for 5 or 10 minutes, it makes me feel better. If all the other workers are going to lunch together and you've got one that's left alone, go eat with them. Little things go a long way. It's not all about the money. However, if someone is trying to pay their bills, you have to be competitive with the other businesses in the area if you want good employees. If your farm is a hobby, do it yourself or get a teenager to come over after school, but don't expect great employees. If your farm is a business, then treat it as one. ALL companies/businesses have clients (equiv to buyers, boarders, students, horses in training, etc) that pay them for their services, whether it be a product, tax filing, medical, horses, whatever. ALL companies have to have employees to be successful. If your stable is a BUSINESS, then it is the BO's responsibility to treat it as such. Pay your employees like any other business. Treat them well. Require them to do the job that you are paying them for. If they're slacking off, then treat them just like any other business would. It's a two-way street. If you're a business owner, it doesn't matter what TYPE of business you're running. It's still a business.
          *Finally returned from the dead.*
          One man's wrong lead is another man's counter-canter.
          - S.D. Price

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Maple Shade View Post
            This thread is amazing to me! Why don't all you people who want a decent job move to my area I paid a 14 y/o kid with NO horse experince $7 an hour and couldn't keep him! Mind you he could work whenever he wanted wanted and take off whenever he wanted. Go figure!
            Maple Shade, I WISH WISH WISH we were staying here or you could come to AL with me. I'd work for you any day of the week. (Seriously, anyone who wants a great job around great horses and is in GA, she is amazing!)
            *Finally returned from the dead.*
            One man's wrong lead is another man's counter-canter.
            - S.D. Price

            Comment


            • #66
              I hate to say it folks...

              ...but you get what you pay for.
              My part time barn help earns $12/hour. I have found that for any less, I cannot attract a responsible adult for part-time work here in the Pacific Northwest. I have three horses of my own, no boarders, and have to work for a living.

              In return for this, I actually get to have a life and have time to ride my horse, and it's worth it.

              Comment


              • #67
                All this complaining about salary (or lack of it) still does not beat a rental barn that, while I was a teenager, CHARGED the horse-crazy kids for the privilage of grooming and saddling the rental horses for their daily rides. Granted, after six months, you "earned" enough experience to get to do it for nothing and one ride a week, so they weren't entirely self-serving....
                Don't tell me about what you can't do. That's boring. Show me what you can do. - Mom

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Emryss View Post
                  All this complaining about salary (or lack of it) still does not beat a rental barn that, while I was a teenager, CHARGED the horse-crazy kids for the privilage of grooming and saddling the rental horses for their daily rides. Granted, after six months, you "earned" enough experience to get to do it for nothing and one ride a week, so they weren't entirely self-serving....
                  Oh, jeez That's like the one place that I worked that I was originally told that I'd get paid and that part of my JOB was to exercise the horses, but at the end of show season, I wasn't given my final paycheck and was told that I should be grateful the BO wasn't charging me more for use of the horses.
                  *Finally returned from the dead.*
                  One man's wrong lead is another man's counter-canter.
                  - S.D. Price

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Jim NYC, don't forget that the $400 a week, free rent and utilities houses a family. One of the family could also work for pay in the barn or elsewhere, perhaps somewhere that offers benefits.
                    http://patchworkfarmga.com

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Oh Boy..

                      Well I would love a barn job, I am burned out from my career in the medical field, Quit my job in July. And if I could find a horse related job I would take it in a hot second. I am a very hard worker, consiencious, and know my way around a horse for over 30 plus years. Michigan is the worst state for unemployment. You have no idea how many times I have thought of just packing it up and moving. I figure no one will hire me because I am not 20 something! But I am far more reliable and responsible that alot of young folks I come across today. Plus there is no manual taks I cannot do.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Now this is just depressing...

                        Originally posted by tbtrailrider View Post
                        Thanks...
                        I have not given up, but time after time, application after application, I never get a call back.
                        I have excellent references from people at Shadwell Farm in Versailles, a couple of vets at Hagyards in Lexington, and this fella..

                        http://www.woodsedgefarm.net/

                        Mexican men were instrumental in my leaving that farm, and I had been there 5 years.
                        I really do not mean to sound so non PC when I say that, but dammit, it's true.
                        No BO or FO is gonna fire 10 men becuase of 1 woman..the woman is gonna suffer.
                        I am now considering starting a horse sitting business......

                        So I might as well give up on that idea.. I'm 48

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          We pay generously but still have trouble finding riders who are reliable. We pay $10 per hour - even to the man that mucks the stalls. We also pay 10% on any sale that a rider has helped train and prep the horse. We recently had a young German Bereiter intern with us for 2 1/2 months. Wow! What a hard worker and she never felt ANYTHING was too much for her to do or beneath her. She accomplished more training the horses in that time that some other "trainers" did with you young horses in 9 months. She lived with us and was a great house guest - always helping.

                          I've had young people here who seemed to feel turning up on time was being at least 1/2 late or never feeling they had to do much. Plus some that show up to interview are EVEN LATE FOR THAT or worse don't show or call. Come dressed with low slung breeches and their stomachs hanging out. Sorry - not at my farm. If you want to be a belly dancer go to a club and dance.

                          We are working on having more interns from Europe. Sorry but we have super horses and a great facility but we never ask anyone to do anything we wouldn't do ourselves and can't deal with this attitude of most of the young people in the US - that they are doing us a big favor by just existing. They also seem to have zero RESPECT for those of us who built these businesses or the fact they we JUST MIGHT know more than they do. We like to have people here who feel (as they do in Europe) that we are TEAM - mutual respect but also a chain of command.
                          Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                          "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Is- You point the other amazing thing to me. When kids look at me very distastefully while I'm explaining tasks or drag their butts around in protest because they don't like a task or complain about how something "sucks" or tell someone else the job sucks (long list).... I wonder who on earth they think does this stuff when they are not around??? DOH! I'm a one woman show and do it all (Hubbie only does the tractor stuff). I built my business up from $500 and have always done everything (while working at my other business). I certainly know what hard work it is and am not insensitive to that fact. Once a kid approached me about a job. We were taking schedules etc. He said "Oh I don't want to clean your barn . I want to train your horses". I laughed right out loud before I managed to censor myself. So, I'm supposed to clean/feed/tack so he can "train" my horses for me . I'm happy to pay people to ride as part of the job. BUT by golly if I'm doing a little bit of everything I certainly expect THEM to do a little bit of everything!
                            Margaret/Maple Shade Farm
                            www.mapleshadefarm.net

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              ISE- isn't the work ethic of the europeans amazing! Even the top riders are out at 4 am mucking with their grooms. The BHS program produces some great people.

                              I also have nice horses owned by clients who pay a good amount to have their horses with me. When the arrive at the barn, my staff should be properly dressed, look happy doing their job, and answer simple questions the client may have. If the client wants to know if her horses new blanket arrives and does it fit, that groom better know what to say. Its a reflection of what your business is like.

                              We pay very well. Good salary, free housing, staff car, etc so why do some grooms find it necessary to trash hotel rooms, write their names on the wall of the house with majic marker, etc.

                              Having a show barn, we have one groom per every 3-5 horse. Each groom is assigned certain horses to care for. Works great. Point being, they are not overworked either.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                *Quote*There are horselovers bursting at the seams to have a job around horses that pays enough to cover health insurance, a car, a decent place to live, food and basics, opportunities to ride, something for retirement, and two days off a week.

                                Exactly...that is NOT too much to ask.



                                Originally posted by Jsalem View Post
                                Poltroon, and there are people that would love to have a beautiful facility in a convenient location with board fencing and lush grass, and free choice hay and best quality feeds and deep bedding and groomed arenas and happy workers with their benefits- for $350 per month. Dear, it's not possible!
                                And this is why you people have a hard time finding people. It is possible to pay someone enough to cover basic living expenses!! Why on earth would people who did this work for years and years as kids and teenagers working for lessons now want to do it for not much more? People need to afford to live!! I think paying someone enough to survive on and owning a beautiful facility..yadda yadda yadda are two COMPLETELY different things. Barn work is hard work, and i enjoy it, if i am getting paid what i am worth. You people who are bitching about paying someone more to do the work...how much do you get an hour for lessons???? You people who drive the big trucks and big trailers. I know its not true for everyone, but i have seen some BO's homes and facilities....and what they pay their help. Its criminal. I dont think they need to pay someone some huge amount of money....but come on!!

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Well here it is blueribbonbaby in a nutshell (and I know I'm not alone in this history of life).

                                  I came from the suburbs, blue collar family - NO HORSES nearby. My mother sent us out to Paoli for one lesson now and then with a rich friend's daughter who was obnoxious but I loved horses so I endured. Worked several absolutely HORRIBLE jobs to pay my way through an Ivy League school even dropping out for a while to make more money. Could afford ONE riding lesson a week for $20. Finally bought my first horse at the age of 26 - after I was married. Worked horrendous long days at professional jobs in Chicago and New York with only enough time to ride late at night and on weekends. Showed when it fit my work schedule but often had to scratch shows I'd paid for because I was sent on business trips all over the country. When I bought my first farm I was over 30! We did and pretty much still do all the heavy lifting ourselves on that farm and the one we own now.

                                  Why should some snot-nosed college kids in their late teens and early 20's tell ME I have to provide them with a huge salary, benefits and retirement? And endure ATTITUDE that includes a full dose of DIS-RESPECT. Had I taken that attitude in the jobs I had during and after college they would have FIRED ME. I ate enough crow for years in the financial world to make a thousand pies. But it's the way it is when you are working your way up. The best advise I ever received after I graduated from Business School was from a very successful man who told me THE GOLDEN RULE - The Person With the Gold Makes the Rule - remember that in business.

                                  The berieter who stayed with us arrived the same day we had a clinician arriving from Germany. She was able to take the reins on a horse (that actually belonged to a friend) who was green for 2 days and deal with her problems. She had my horse tacked for me without asking - I almost fainted because I never expected it. She had the schedule of the horses on charts, cleaned the tack room and also had to be prepared to handle a total of 23 horses and ponies - foals to GP schoolmaster for two weeks because I was leaving for 2 weeks in Germany. She didn't even BLINK. She felt this was an easy task. We do have someone do the stalls but she handled everything. When I arrived home - 4 young horses and 1 pony were started on the ground and two had been backed and mare who had been off to have foals was back working under saddle and my schoolmaster had been worked daily. Tack was clean, pads were washed and horses were groomed.

                                  Do any of you honestly feel I can find a young person in this country to be able to do this? Her TRAINING as a Bereiter prepared her for this - in fact she was shocked she DIDN'T have to do stalls. As someone else pointed out - in Germany - even top riders expect to do a few stalls early each morning. AND I MEAN EARLY.

                                  When I worked with her riding my horses - we discussed the training, she offered her suggestions, I offered mine - we worked together and had MUTUAL RESPECT. She (on her own) answered the telephone - saying Hello this is ise's barn, C.....speaking - how can I help you? Call a few barns that have young people in your area answering the phone - I doubt if they will say anything more than a bored hello and don't expect them to offer to take a message or even really do it and give it to the person you are trying to reach.

                                  I think these reality shows on TV about the Medal Maclay and Rich girls and their horses has gone to a whole generations brain. They truly EXPECT things to be handed to them and feel they are ENTITLED to whatever they want with no hard work.

                                  We've done the route of sending horses out to training farms and paying HUGE SUMS OF MONEY to young riders who feel they are the "moon and the stars" and as I was told by one "I should make all the decisions - you as the owner should just PAY THE BILLS". Needless to say that situation was terminated. But speaking to other breeders and owners - it's not unusual.

                                  I'm not saying there aren't some young riders out there who have a great work ethic and understand respect and a team concept but they are like hens teeth to find. But to say you EXPECT good salary, benefits, retirement, etc. - well what are you offering?
                                  Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                                  "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    My brother worked for 20 years at a barn and was a mucker from day one to day 30,000. Through him I have some perspective. He left the "horse thing" to take a job as a hospital orderly. Now he works 5 days a week not six. Now he works indoors with a/c and heat and full medical and retirement benefits. At 40+ years of age, the grind of a 40+ horse show/lesson barn was enough. Last winter for the first time ever, he didn't get bronchitis or pneumonia. When he did get a bad cold, he took PAID days off! Imagine. He worked for a decent guy who runs a nice barn. Clients there treated him like gold but the barn manager gave him alot of trouble and he'd simply had enough. His hourly wage to start at the hospital was $1.50 more than he was making doing barn work. He no longer has to use his personal vehicle to haul hay/equipment to shows. He doesn't have to do split shifts (early morning work-midday off-late evening work) because of the traffic flow through the barn each day.

                                    I know for certain that had he decided to go to work for Jumphigh83 she'd have been thrilled to have him and he'd have loved to have a place to live on the property. By that time, he was just burned out. He loves horses but as no aspirations to be a rider or trainer.

                                    The horse biz attracts 2 very different types of "help." One is generally the horse crazy girls who grew up riding and love horses. They are dedicated and usually want to learn but...mostly they are girls who grew up in middle class or "white collar" homes, wealthy enough to afford horses or lessons and eventually they will want to drift back to that suburban lifestyle. They spend some time "in horses" then realize that their salary will not pay for the niceties they are accustomed to and off they trot to college and a fancy career which allows them to buy and board a horse.
                                    The second (general) category is that of "day labor." They are mostly unskilled, not horsemen and though they may be good workers, they'll often leave at a moment's notice when someone offers them $1 more an hour.

                                    I know Jumphigh83 and know that she's a VERY reasonable boss. Her barn is nice and well run with a great group of people. She's often employed boarders/students who are great and have interest in learning horsemanship. The problem is that eventually they discover that the hard physical work of caring for horses simply cannot pay for the lifestyle they grew up in.
                                    I used to manage a "domestics" department in a major department store. The ideal employee for me was someone who was interested in house and home stuff and wanted to learn. The problem was that I could only afford to pay so much and good help was taking what I was teaching them and going to places that paid better or becoming asst managers in big homeshops like LinensNThings. I'd then get stuck with high school drop outs who had such poor customer and communications skills that they HURT my business. Anyone who is hiring in a field that is traditionally low paying or "entry level" is up against the same thing. Once the good folks learn a bit, they want to move on. If the employer doesn't have a space for them (as most small businesses, like barns don't!) to move UP to, they leave.
                                    Another issue is this: The ammy rules! I haven't ridden in months but when I did, I often hacked a horse boarded at Jumphigh's barn. I rode him in lessons as well. I'm pretty broke and would love to help her out as a PT mucker/helper but if I did and then wanted to show, I'd be a PRO. I know this thread is not about the ammy rule but it does come into play here.
                                    F O.B
                                    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                                    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Forgive me but I didn't have time to read this whole thread yet.

                                      I have worked a part time horse job since I was 16 (now 23) to support my horses. When I was out of a "normal" job I did work full time at a barn. I worked my ass off from 5 am to usually 7 or 8pm and then rode after that. I got paid $7 an hour. I really felt that I was wasting my time busting my butt for snot nose kids to try to tell me what to do. I don't want to sound rude but, that's the way it was. I also wasn't only mucking stalls, but pulling manes, trimming, tacking up, cleaning tack, making sure lesson kids were in the ring on time AND rematting/claying a 50+ stall barn. When I asked to have my pay rate re-evaluated the BO laughed at me and said "Why? I can just hire someone to take your place?" Well, I left that barn.

                                      I would be thrilled to find a full time barn job with mostly normal hours (45-50) with a day off, and feel like I was an integral part of the operations of the barn. But in reality these jobs a few and far between. I have seen many that will give you free housing (shared barn apartments) and a small weekly stipend. BUT then insurance is up to you (face it folks it's darned expensive) not including your personal bills, your horse, and trying to put $ into the "nest egg"

                                      So, after this long and rambling post, pay me what I should be making for the job that I am doing, provide benefits just like any other business (because most barns are a business, correct?) and maybe you'll have better luck finding normal hard working people that love the sport and want to promote it. If not, hey, hire a few illegal aliens, pay them $5 and hour, and you'll get what you pay for.

                                      On top of that, if you are looking for a horse job, and you have a SO, trying to find living accomdations for the both of you isn't an easy task. When I was looking for a barn manager type position, and they heard that it was two people, and a horse lookiong to move, well it's an entirely different story. It didn't even matter that the SO had a real full time job, and was more than willing to help out the the 'handyman" jobs at a barn. (he's a carpenter) I was also willing to pay full board on my horse, and wasn't asking for anything extra just because there was 2 of us.
                                      www.rideforthecurema.org Thanks to all who rode, we raised $110,000!!!
                                      If you are interested in a ride in your state, check out our website!

                                      www.realestatebyrebecca.com

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                                      • #79
                                        wow, this is a great subject, and as someone who has previously ( a long time ago lol) been a teenager, i can say, i did work in a barn, and did it for free, for the experience, and the joy of working with the horses. honestly, i enjoyed it so much, it never occured to me that the woman should have been paying me.
                                        to those who say they are too "old" to go back to, or start working in the horse industry, fooey !! i'm 40 now, and didnt get back to it till i was 36. my first job back was working at a trail riding facility, i made 10 an hour, took care of 28 horses, fed them, tacked them, rode for over 5 hours a day, cleaned water buckets, untacked them, washed them, and fed them again, and couldnt BELIEVE i made 10 an hour plus tips !!
                                        fast forward to now,i work as a BM, i don't get a paycheck at all now, i get free rent, on a very very tiny apt, have to pay the utilities, but get free board for 6 horses, and i buy thier hay and feed. i currently have 9 horses that are not mine here at the stable, i feed, muck, turnout, do blankets, and am in fact the ONLY employee at the barn. however, i feel i get fairly compensated for my work, and i work hard !!
                                        i really feel that in order to do a job like mine, you need to feel it is a lifestyle, 24 hours a day, or not bother to do it all. i do not get days off, or insurance, thank heavens my husband helps me on weekends, or when im sick, and thank goodness he's in the military and we get full insurance.
                                        i have NEVER been accused of being anything but my employers best employee ever, by all three horse jobs ive had in the last 4 years. i treat every horse as if they were my own, and recognize when they are sick, lame, depressed, whatever. i too, as someone said, "muck stalls like i was going to sleep in them" keep a clean barn, tack room, and feed shed. i am available to boarders 24/7, they all have my home phone, and cell phone, and i live on the premises.
                                        what i DO ask for in return, is respect. i have an issue with boarders who treat me like i am low class. please !! i take care of your beloved baby !! and no matter how disrespectfull you are to me, i never hold it against him !!
                                        i am a safety natzi, a helmet natzi, and a nature natzi. i have barn rules, and expect them to be adhered to.
                                        i left my last job due to an injury i experienced because of the stupidity of others on the job, and a general lack of professionalism on thier part. i make less money now, but am far happier.
                                        yes, people will always have to make some sacrifices to achieve what they want, but not being paid apropriatly, or a sum that both parties feel is fair, should not be one of them.
                                        i also find that often people will work for less money if they feel they are appreciated, and respected, myself included.
                                        most times, if an employer has a hard time keeping experienced quality employees, the problem lies with them, not their hirees. (like my last job, they went through 23 BM's in 7 years, oh puleese !! they couldn't ALL have sucked !!)
                                        Little Wishes Pony Parties

                                        "Cause don't the sunshine lay the brightest on the shoulders of the wild?
                                        And don't the breeze blow the sweetest on the face of its own child?"

                                        kris delmhorst

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                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by county View Post
                                          Well my freind I did see your post about your hourly wage and I still say just because you want to work for nothing hardly means others should show business or not. We show we doin't work for nothing and do not expect those who work for us to do so.
                                          If you want to be in the business, you do what it takes. Try whining to the folks at Paramount or MGM about how haarrrddd it is to be an actor, and how many other $h!t jobs you have to take to support yourself to get where you're going. They'll probably be as sympathetic as I am.
                                          In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                          A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                          www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

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