Thank you Susie Schoellkopf for saying it outloud!

[Trakehner]

What a surprise!

Low pay at barns...not a surprise...

Experience for most barn tasks is worth...oh, maybe 2%. How much talent does it take to fill a water bucket? Fork manure into a wheelbarrow, and then fork bedding into same wheelbarrow? There's maybe 10 minutes of training to reach full capability in this area.

Mowing? Ask any 10 year old kid who mows the yard...except for warnings of: Don't run over yourself, reach for the blade while it's turning and hoses are not grass...there isn't much training involved with this task either...maybe 15 mintues, and 10 of those are how to start the recalcitrant mower.

Feeding? The sign on the stall says, "1 scoop"...well, another 10 minute task to learn and master.

So, for the general stable workforce, you have mind-numbingly boring work, repetitive in typically unpleasant work environment (the standard too hot/too cold) working around all-too-common primadonnas for not much money. Sounds like a deal to me! It's why all the illegals head towards stoop labour and barn work...no brains/language skills etc. needed to shovel anything coming out of a horse.

The McDonald's around here starts "you want fries with that?" employees at $9.50/hr. You get a hat, polyester clothes and benefits with the potential to move up if you want to. The difference in a burger flipper after a day and a burger flipper after 12 years is 0/nada/nothing...which is why unless employees are moving up in the company they are slowly forced out...don't need a higher priced employee doing menial labour when there is no increased "value added" to their work.

Barns are the same way. Except for a decent barn manager, there isn't any benefit to an old hand at shoveling scata and sweeping aisles. Even for barn managers, there really isn't a big difference worth the pay between a 5 year vs. 30 year person....so why hire the 30 year person, they've got medical problems coming up and may not have kept up with new and improved ways of doing things....plus, they have families who can get in the way of their work.

If you want a career mucking horse crap...go to school, get a career, buy your own barn and do it for fun or a hobby. For money, most barn tasks can be done handily by the mentally handicapped (we have had several handicapped guys who worked at the barn...they were great, loved the horses, were always on time and did a wonderful job...any barn owner looking for stable help, check out the local county mental health office, they go begging looking for places for these people to work...and will even supplement their salary).

[AC & Ty]

But could the mentally handicapped bandage, run an IV, give shots, diagnose lameness, recognize colic, deal with boarders and clients, set up vet/farrier appts and speak and UNDERSTAND the vets diagnosis, shavings and hay deliveries, etc???????? HELL NO.

I can do all of this and more. I can supervise ANY number of personnel. (Thank you USMC)

Believe you me, I am looking for my own place. But until then...I WILL work at a barn if I find the right position. I posted a while ago about working off board...and quite a few people wrote that a dedicated employee was "priceless"...I often wonder why barns have 3 or 4 lazy-ass workers who are just there to be paid, not because they love horses, when they could pay 2 people a BETTER salary, who love horses, and work 10X better...CONFUZZLES me...

[mintyfresh]

I would love a job with horses, absolutely love it! But how am I going to live and pay for my two kids on $10 an hour?

It's hardly that I'm opposed to hard work. Heck, I'm a waitress right now, but when I was figuring it yesterday I average anywhere from $15 - $25 an hour depending on the day, most of that is cash, and way more days in the $20 - $25 range.

You show me a horse related job that I can actually LIVE off of and doesn't require going to florida half the year (can't be moving my kids around like that) and I'll be all over it.

I've been around horses for over 17 years, I've owned my own horse for 15 years. I worked in stables from the time I was 12 until I was 18, including managing a 30 horse stable for a summer with only one other worker for $5 an hour (the actual owner/manager was a drunk who never left the house). I have tons of experience and have no qualms about working hard. I'd be a great worker, if someone out there was willing to pay me enough to live off of.

Until the BO's pay a living wage I can't see how they can complain about their workers.

[Angela Freda]

Basic stall cleaning work is a low level skill, with little need for training. "This is poop. Remove it from the stall." Given.

But recognizing when a horse is NQR, knowing the difference between tying-up and colic and what to do in each case? Being able to tell the vet ALL of the even subtle symptoms (and knowing which ones are important and which arent) ad follow his/her instructions to supplement the vets care? Handling a silly horse so that neither horse nor handler gets hurt (and maybe horse learns not to get silly when handled- without being abused)...

Experience and skills are part of the job, and are worth money.
If you are only hiring inexperienced simpletons to do the grunt work... please give me your barns web addy, cause there is no way in Hades I would board my horse where the workers only skills are recognizing what poop is.

[AC & Ty]

OH...and just to add...the only "baggage" I have is 2 dogs and 3 cats.

NO HUSBAND. NO KIDS. (Am using the current insurance to cover the tubal ligation - ha ha)

I AM THE PERFECT EMPLOYEE.

I will say that I do think more farms should offer insurance. A percentage of it will be taken out of your check. Horses are inherently dangerous. I just backed away from a REALLY nice barn because they wouldn't give me insurance until I was there A YEAR. Well, I'll probably fall off AT LEAST 6 times before that!

[Jude]

You are running a business. If you would like to avoid the hassles of running a business, stop running said business.

If I open a hardware store, I'm not allowed to whine this much. If I start an internet start-up, I'm not allowed to whine this much. Why did you start a business if you don't want to run one?

It isn't a horse career with a few details thrown in, it is a business where the product/service/client happens to be horses. No different than a spa or B&B, except for who walks in the door. You want a life with horses and none of this business crap in the way? Get rid of your business and try being an employee. For someone else. Who feels the same way you do. THEN you come back here and post how thrilled you are at getting paid jack.

[Just My Style]

Construction labor here make 15 to 35 $/hr. That is entry labor with no experience to lead ma on the crew + overtime, and insurance. WHY do I want to muck stalls at 10?

That's ridiculous. You can't equate mucking stalls to construction. It's a different pay scale and it should be. "Here's a turd- put it in a bucket" is one of the easiest skills I think a person could master. Now, if they are expected to run and IV, do bandages, etc they should be paid more. More responsibility = more $.

You show me a horse related job that I can actually LIVE off of and doesn't require going to florida half the year (can't be moving my kids around like that) and I'll be all over it.

There are thousands of horse related jobs that you can live off of. I tell this to people over and over. You do not have to work in a barn to have an equine job. Think of all the items you purchase, books you read, magazines you subscribe to, etc. They do not just magically appear out of the sky. People go to school, get degrees and get those jobs. Just the other day, my local PetsMart was looking for a full time manager to manage just the equine department. Good company. Good benefits. The sign has been up for easily over a month. Go to Monster.com or Careerbuilder.com and type in "equine" or "equestrian". There will be jobs, I promise.

[Czar]

Well I've been on both sides of this battle.

Horses are, above all things, a passion for most horselovers whether you are a groom, a trainer, or a high-paying client. I've not yet met one horseperson in any capacity that did not have to sacrifice in some way to enjoy their passion...granted some more than others.

What I am trying to say is that working in the horse business is not like your average 9-5 office job and if you expect it to be, than you are barking up the wrong tree as far as careers go. You can complain to high heaven, but that's just the way it is. If you're not willing to sacrifice, than don't look at getting a job working with horses.

As a worker, I do recall my employers expecting a lot for the wage they paid me. I was the only one who could braid so guess who started at 4:00 in the morning with no extra pay? I honestly didn't mind the low wage in the first place but I do think extra effort in any profession should be acknowledged and compensated for.

Years later as a barn manager, I ALWAYS made sure I thanked my help for a job well done and rewarded them in some way (they were teenage girls so usually taking them out for ice cream was sufficient ).

BTW...my guess is that those of you who say mucking doesn't take any training probably have never run their own barn...we actually fired people b/c they didn't muck properly...it would drive me crazy to see half a wheelbarrow of clean shavings that could have stayed in a stall or go in after the stall has been "cleaned" and find piles of crap covered over...like I said, the horse business is built on passion (even caring enough to do the stalls properly) so if you don't have it - find another job

[Angela Freda]

Just the other day, my local PetsMart was looking for a full time manager to manage just the equine department. Good company. Good benefits. The sign has been up for easily over a month.

I applied for this same job at my local Petsmart. Twice I left a very professional resume, talked to the manager on Duty about my horse, marketing, sales and retail experience. NEVER got a call back. And the Equine dept of the store is STILL carrying blankets in the wrong size for the majority of the horses in our area.

[tbtrailrider]

Great Thread

I just had to throw another 2 cents in...
I feel like I am the perfect employee as well, People with families are a good investment, not always a burden. My children are teenagers and not afraid of hard work, they both work now.
I am that employee who can recognize lameness, give shots, speak with the vet,run any kind of bandage,braid ,pull manes , pull off a loose shoe without tearing up a foot,the list could go on and on and on...
It seems that most farms want people with only so much experience,they don't want someone too experienced,who may want to do things their own way.
That's why the Hispanic worker is the worker of choice around here...they DO work their arse off, they DO follow instructions...all I had to do was point and say "me ayuda" (help me) por favor, and they would be right on top of it,whatever it was.
I am an unskilled laborer ...my last jobs have been as a hotel housekeeper and a cashier in a gas station....I would KILL for a job like described before...400 a week and a house....dream job....

[Gayla]

I respectfully disagree. I have seen people take very well paid horse jobs ($2500 month cash, plus a place to live, plus health and dental) and still be slackers. I have to agree with the folks who say today's world is simply full of slackers! Doesn't matter what you pay. I see it in the corporate world AND the horse world. People who take off more than a reasonable amount of time. People who come in late and leave early. People who cannot be trusted to do as you requested the moment your back is turned. People who lie and say they did work they didn't do. This a wide-ranging problem not specific to the horse industry. It has to do with poor parenting and parents who don't ever want their kids to dislike them, so they do not discipline and they do not demand that the child do as they are told. If a child grows up ignoring his parent's requests, he certainly isn't going to be any more obedient to a boss. The difference is, the boss can fire him.

I think this is a wide sweeping statement that is too broad. I would be carefully think about the idea that we get out of life what we expect. I will agree that teenagers need a great deal of coaching to succeed. But they don't know how to work. It is a skill and that goes for many adults. There are many many bad bosses, and they always have bad employees. Funny how it works that way.

[Czar]

they don't want someone too experienced,who may want to do things their own way.

That's b/c it's their facility and horsepeople are notorious for wanting things done their way ...and every one has a different view

Another thing about being in the horse business....if you don't like being told what to do...DON'T work as farm help...learned that the hard way. I grew up on a horse farm so working for someone else was eye-opening to say the least...there were so many things that I disagreed with. Not necessarily major issues...just little things - like I'm a turnout nazi and the first farm I worked for only turned out each horse for a hour a day and the paddocks would sometimes stand empty for the last 2 hours of the working day since all the horses had already had their hour...drove me insane!

Which was why I came home to manage our own farm - loved running the show and I realized that I would never be able to work for someone again unless I was managing.

[Just My Style]

I applied for this same job at my local Petsmart. Twice I left a very professional resume, talked to the manager on Duty about my horse, marketing, sales and retail experience. NEVER got a call back. And the Equine dept of the store is STILL carrying blankets in the wrong size for the majority of the horses in our area.

I would call corporate and ask if you can submit your resume through them. I would also follow up with the manager again. It may be disorganization- or it may be a test to see how persistant a person can be. They probably get dozens of resumes from people who are not qualified of who lack a proper work ethic. I think that you should push them for an answer as to their hiring time frame. You may show them that you are not just any person who drops a resume and drives away. And I agree- they do need people who understand equine. I don't think their regular workers know a darn thing about horses. Your knowledge would be very beneficial to them.

I also just did a search on some of the jobsites. There are jobs with Primedia, Fort Dodge, Merial, Dover Saddlery, several different vet clinics, PetsMart, Reeves (Breyer)... I could go on and on. Lots of opportunities.

[StefffiC]

I've worked in barns for almost 10 years now. Thankfully there have been some EXCELLENT ones along the way. Most of the problems I've had with pay and expectations have been from trainers who thought they were so very good and I was nothing.

But, in the Saddle Horse industry it's different. Really different. I made a decent wage for the work I did. Tips were given by clients. People said thank you, they bought gifts for holidays.

I'm not a bad worker. I do my job, and for the saddle horse people I worked for I went above and beyond many times without getting "paid" for it. It was worth it because he treated his employs great and said thank you. That little gesture of being *thankful* I was at the barn meeting horses at 11pm coming from a show made it worth it.

I've got my own small facility and I'm looking for a barn to train out of, so I know the work that a facility requires and I'm not above hard work. I'm above being treated like $h!t, not getting paid, and all the drama that goes along with the industry!

Steph

[flshgordon]

Been there, done that

It's been (quite a) few years since i had my last horsey/slave job but I started out working there FOR FREE mucking stalls, lunging horses, turnouts, bandaging, just to get the riding time, then finally got hired on as a groom for min. wage and then later breaking/training young horses (inherently more dangerous) for just a few pennies more. We got 2 days off (everyone got diff days, not just sat/sun) I did it because I LOVED it and because I was sponge learning anything I could. I had back pain, foot pain, shoulder pain, heat exhaustion, etc. Luckily at the time I still lived with my parents and didn't have to worry about living arrangements. The pay at this place in general sucked, but the facility was very nice, well kept and the adult full time workers for the most part had the benefit of living ON SITE for free. This was quite a large facility so there were several small houses. I think that the one thing that kept these (white, american) people there for lower pay for YEARS is that they were getting the benefit of a place to live. I'm not sure about the utilities but when you take into account that you are giving someone a job and they don't have to pay rent, utilities is just a small part. They could use that money that would have been rent for insurance. Whoever said it's not all about the money, it's about the things they get otherwise. The workers at our barn live on site, have access to nice vehicles (even though they also have their own) and do get some days off. (I will note that it's hard for workers to ever get days off when you don't have enough help to cover the slack on the days you are not fully staffed) so IMO it's better to get creative about what you can offer other than just money....

AND....to the boarders out there, BE NICE to the barn workers!!!!!!!!! In all the barns I have been at, it blows my mind how some people treat the barn help as if they are not even there or even worse. Say hello to them even if they don't speak english, try to learn their names and don't purposely leave a mess for them that you should be cleaning up yourself. At Christmas, give them a tip, a card, whatever you can afford. Trust me, the first few times you try it, they may look at you like you have 3 heads thinking "what is this crazy person doing, no one ever talks to me" but after a while they will become comfortable with you and say hi right back. And if you ever need help they will be right there to do it. These are the people that CARE for your horses when you aren't around, why would you want to treat them like dirt?

If the boarders can help make it a better environment by being kind and appreciative to the workers, then maybe just maybe, they will enjoy working there a little more and want to stick around...even for a little lower pay

oops sorry, off my soapbox now!

[MareForceOne]

Just wanted to throw in my $.02.

If you are a farm/barn owner, and as someone had mentioned, making only $0.76/hr on actualy board money, you have to consider the other benefits you have that don't cost you anything. For example, if you have 5 horses at your farm, and at the end of the month come out $.76/hr. in the black, it is really more than the $.76/hr that you made. You have to take into account the money that you [I]didn't[/I} spend that month on boarding the 5 horses.

For example, 5 horses @ $500/month (not even possible in my area), is $2500 per month. So, in addidtion to the $.76/hr, you can add $2500 per month. That, to me, is one of the largest financial benefits that many barn owners do not take into account when they complain about how little profit they make. $2500/month equates to $30,000/year. That means you'd have to work a job that grossed $45,000/year (of disposable income) more than what you'd spend on regular living expenses to clear the $30,000 (after taxes) that you'd spend on board to keep your 5 horses. Otherwise, you would not be able to keep your 5 horses.

Also, barn owners have the facility to teach lessons and host clinics or schooling shows, or hunter paces, or kid's 4-H type game days to make a profit as well.

Plus, you are your own boss.

If you live at the property, you don't have the costs of gas/tolls/commuting that many of us have.

Also, if you live at the property, you pay farm-rated taxes, which is a savings over what many of us pay in yearly property taxes.

Also, if you own the property/facility, you are also making money each year on your investment in the property itself. For example, after 10 years, you may be able to sell your property for $300,000 more than you bought it for. That would be basically an extra $30,000/year in profit from your investment over those 10 years.

So, there are many unseen financial benefits to owning and keeping horses at your own facility. There are also a lot of responsibilities, cost, and unexpected maintainace responsibilities. Insurance costs also. But overall, I did want to point out that there are financial benefits to being a barn owner, beyond the $0.76/hr, that are not always so obvious.

[equusrocks]

I've worked in barns for almost 10 years now. Thankfully there have been some EXCELLENT ones along the way. Most of the problems I've had with pay and expectations have been from trainers who thought they were so very good and I was nothing.

But, in the Saddle Horse industry it's different. Really different. I made a decent wage for the work I did. Tips were given by clients. People said thank you, they bought gifts for holidays.

I'm not a bad worker. I do my job, and for the saddle horse people I worked for I went above and beyond many times without getting "paid" for it. It was worth it because he treated his employs great and said thank you. That little gesture of being *thankful* I was at the barn meeting horses at 11pm coming from a show made it worth it.

I've got my own small facility and I'm looking for a barn to train out of, so I know the work that a facility requires and I'm not above hard work. I'm above being treated like $h!t, not getting paid, and all the drama that goes along with the industry!

Steph

I agree with what you're saying StefffiC. I worked at a small barn of 10 horses for two years. Most of the horses were owned by the BO, but a couple were boarders. I *loved* that job. I even gave up a better paying job for that one. The pay was a little over minimum wage. I got a roommate and dealt with it. Unfortunately, the BO was having some family difficulties and put all the horses up for sale. I couldn't stay (could not make rent on the hours I would have had)

I stayed that long because the owner appreciated me showing up every day. She said it many times, remembered my birthday, invited me to her Christmas parties, and just in general treated me like family. Her horses were lovely and I treated them as I treated my own. There was some sense of entrepreneurship (sp?). It goes both ways. Had she just thrown a pitchfork at me and pointed at the poop, gave me a list and told me to just get it done, I don't think I would have liked it so much. Being treated like just another stall cleaner doesn't foster developing a sense of pride in your work. (don't get me wrong, I still would have done the job, and done it well...just not with the same WANT to do well. It would have just been "It's my job" mentality) She gave me a list and said if I had any suggestions or ideas, to ask because she was always looking for new things to try. It was nice. In the barns I've since worked at, none of the BO's were like that. I highly doubt I'll ever work in a barn again. Why give up full benefits and good pay with set hours, for hard work in crappy weather, with long hours, and no benefits, and on top of it be treated like a pee-on by BO's and boarders? I guess I've just been spoiled at the current job. I don't really want to leave. I even have time for my own horse (which is at home, so I can still feed that stall cleaning urge, lol)!!

[DMK]

If you are paying below a living wage, you will get these kinds of workers:
- people who are between living situations, like students, and are not looking to stay permanently
- people who are not smart enough to calculate their cost of living and to realize that there is no way over the long term to pay it on the wage you offer
- people who have lower costs because they are willing to live in shady living situations and take a gamble, like illegal immigrants, in order to get a foothold in the US
- people who are subsidized by other money - parents or spouses
- people who can't get any other work

Why shouldn't your clients pay the real cost of keeping their horses in a boarding barn? After all, they're the ones that get the pleasure out of it.

Amen.

We live in a free market economy, remember? You get what you pay for. If you are not finding people who are good and reliable workers in an economy that is stagnant for the middle class and below, then I can only assume they are a) getting something closer to a living wage elsewhere, b) you are impossible to work for or c) all of the above.

Do I sympathize with the fact that the horse owning upper end of that stagnant economy is also feeling the pinch and very resistant to paying more? Absolutely, I feel it every day, most especially when I visit the gas station, or god help me, pay the natural gas bill. Owning a business that ultimately depends on another person's disposable income is never easy, and a damn bit harder in tough times. But that doesn't change the fact that workers can get higher/living wages elsewhere, possibly even doing jobs that are just as hard if not harder. They aren't just choosing to starve homeless on the streets to avoid working in a barn.

[tullio]

reading this whole thread has made me so, so grateful for my job! Actually I have two jobs... leave a higher paying office job early each afternoon to go teach and be in the barn for a few hours... sounds crazy, but I eventually want to run my own barn and right now this is my version of being a 'working student.'

Even though I get paid less, I love the people I work with and the prestige associated with the barn - it will always be an excellent reference. I get little non-monetary bonuses here and there, and donuts are always available. The horses are wonderful. They could pay me half what they currently do and I'd still come to work every day because it's a great place to work. (And no, I don't ride there. At all.)

They could pay me twice what they currently do - and I'd quit if the people weren't awesome and I wasn't learning anything. There are other options and other ways of getting a horse fix.

And there are slackers and people with entitlement issues in every field, everywhere. This is so incredibly not unique to the horse world!

[mst]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbtrailrider
they don't want someone too experienced,who may want to do things their own way.

those are the comments i can't stand. Of course we want as experienced as possible but if you want to do things your own way, get your own barn.My ways got me my facility, my clients, and abled me to give you a job. If I only turn out for one hour, there is a reason for it. I don't mind explaining to you why i do that but not to have you tell me why i am wrong. Its the program i follow. However, experienced people that take care of horses,organize a barn and make it run smoother are hard to find. I pay my help very well, treat them like family, but still have a hard time getting good ones.