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  • #21
    Originally posted by Jsalem View Post
    Noooo, not my horse habit. I keep my personal horses at home. I fed and mucked BEFORE I left for the training barn this morning. And I fed at 8:00 tonight after I finished work. I do my own grunt work for my horses.

    It's the "clients" who squeal like stuck pigs when their board goes up $25. I don't think barn owners are the bad guys here. Read the threads about boarding. My god, the clients expect you to lose money in order for them to afford keeping a horse. That's what you folks just don't understand. $15 an hour? Health insurance? Benefits? Paid vacation? All that becomes overhead that must be covered in the board rate. When customers are willing to pay the real costs of keeping their horses in a boarding barn- then we'll talk.
    OK, the clients' horse habit. Shit flows downhill, as the saying goes. They expect the barn owner to subsidize them, he can't/won't, so he wants the help to subsidize them.

    I do understand. I run a business. I know the score.

    Health insurance, and worker's comp. That is a cost of living. It is not some luxury. Yes, for a while you can do without. But one day, the worker will get sick, or the worker will get hurt. And then the worker will pay the bill, with interest, for those years of not paying for health insurance. Not the barn owner and not the clients, the worker. And the barn owner will be pissed because the worker didn't show up.

    You can hire workers without cars, but you'll find they have trouble being where and when you need them. Not because they're not responsible, but because they're not in control.

    If you are paying below a living wage, you will get these kinds of workers:
    - people who are between living situations, like students, and are not looking to stay permanently
    - people who are not smart enough to calculate their cost of living and to realize that there is no way over the long term to pay it on the wage you offer
    - people who have lower costs because they are willing to live in shady living situations and take a gamble, like illegal immigrants, in order to get a foothold in the US
    - people who are subsidized by other money - parents or spouses
    - people who can't get any other work

    Why shouldn't your clients pay the real cost of keeping their horses in a boarding barn? After all, they're the ones that get the pleasure out of it.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

    Comment


    • #22
      BTW, Jsalem, I would consider $400 a week with free housing and free utilities to be a living wage.
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

      Comment


      • #23
        Jsalem

        In your last post you said it the best.

        Or the client that whines about a $5.00 /lesson increase and then asks you to hold the Sat morning time slot for free, while they go on their annual trip to Europe first class for a month in the summer.

        Comment


        • #24
          At the barns I have boarded at, MOST of the owners had MANY of their own horses in the barn, and always boo-hoo'd that they could not afford to run the place. See any connection? You can not fill the stalls of the barn with your own horses who are not bringing in board, and expect to make money.
          And it's awfully hard to take the "I can't afford to pay you a decent salary..." speech from a person who just pulled up in their new Jaguar, wearing their leather fullseat breeches and custom boots with fully manicured and bejeweled fingers... to ride one of their 8 horses.

          I worked at a wonderful barn job where I earned a decent wage, and had a rent free apt, paid vaca, benefits, board on my horse, etc. I Learned alot at that job, at one of the premiere horse breeding and training farms in the country. After that experience I believe I am worth well more than min. wage with no benefits.

          At my most recent job, I made $8 an hour working at a store in the mall. Why freeze to death, and run the risk of getting hurt without health benes, for less money working in a barn? Would I rather work in the barn? Absolutely! But to the smart, hardworking, experienced employee so many of you are seeking, that just doesn't make any sense.
          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Jsalem View Post
            It's the "clients" who squeal like stuck pigs when their board goes up $25. I don't think barn owners are the bad guys here. Read the threads about boarding. My god, the clients expect you to lose money in order for them to afford keeping a horse. That's what you folks just don't understand. $15 an hour? Health insurance? Benefits? Paid vacation? All that becomes overhead that must be covered in the board rate. When customers are willing to pay the real costs of keeping their horses in a boarding barn- then we'll talk.
            Thank you.

            I once figured out that, after mucking, feeding, turnout, and generally taking care of my eight stall barn, my income from my boarders afforded me exactly $.76 per hour. The deficit has to be made up by training and lessons, which are done after all the other gruntwork is finished.

            So, on roughly $1 an hour, you want me to be able to pay $10-$15/hour, and give bennies? Sorry - I know I don't know squat about economics, but I'd really need to have someone show me how that could work.
            In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
            A life lived by example, done too soon.
            www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Jsalem View Post
              Yup, jumphigh, I'm with you. I loved that piece.

              How about $400 a week, free rent, free utilities, one week's paid vacation for a 6 day a week job? Or $10 an hour for a groom's job. You'd be surprised how hard it is to fill those jobs.
              Is that what you offer?
              Then you are not the norm, my friend.
              I am 45 years old , been working with horses since I was 17, up until a few years ago.
              I can no longer get employment in the TB industry here in KY.
              Too many Mexicans.
              There.
              I said it.
              Why hire an old woman with a few creaks and cricks who wants at least 8 bucks an hour, when you can hire a Mexican man half my age for 6 bucks an hour?
              I was able to get a job rubbing racehorses for a nice trainer in Lexington...beautiful barn, lovely horses, I was the only woman groom and the only American other than the trainer, his wife and the ponygirl.
              I had to quit, but that is another story, I did not feel comfortable working there and we will leave it at that.
              You have no idea how badly I want my career back.
              Last edited by tbtrailrider; Oct. 19, 2006, 11:32 PM. Reason: spelling

              Comment


              • #27
                So if someone doesn't want to work cheap why would they expect others to?
                Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                Comment


                • #28
                  tbtrailrider, the farm labor here won't work for less than $8/hour, and they don't have your experience. You're a bargain. I'd hire you in a minute.
                  In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                  A life lived by example, done too soon.
                  www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by county View Post
                    So if someone doesn't want to work cheap why would they expect others to?
                    See my post above about my "hourly wage".

                    And why? Because this is show business, my friend. If you want to be in show business, you sacrifice. Everyone wants to get paid to do what they want to do, rather than what they have to do. Every graduate from Julliard dreams of being a high paid actor, a successful concert musician, or a bankable recording star. Partly because of the money involved, but mostly because that money is made doing something they're passionate about.
                    And if you want to be in the horse business and do something you love, you can expect to make the same sacrifices as those aspiring actors, singers and musicians do, when they wait tables, clean houses, and park cars.
                    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                    A life lived by example, done too soon.
                    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Well my freind I did see your post about your hourly wage and I still say just because you want to work for nothing hardly means others should show business or not. We show we doin't work for nothing and do not expect those who work for us to do so.
                      Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I have a Master's in Human Resources and what you are complaining about is market economics. You aren't paying enough to get quality workers. It doesn't matter how much you think you are paying, it is not enough to attact the type of workers you desire. Plain and simple. I think that way to attract good barn help is with good benefits such as a place to live for free, with room for a small family or at least a partner, some paid time off that you fill in, travel, free board on a horse and show privilages such as free trailer space, they cover their own stall, entry fees, you cover their days at the farm so many times a year so they can go to a few shows with their shifts covered. You have to be creative and think about what you can give them that is NOT money. It is proven over and over again that people are not motivated by money and can get along on very little if there are other things in the job that they love. The problem is with you the employer, always. Just like when a rider wants to blame the horse...
                        “If you are irritated by every rub, how will your mirror be polished?”
                        ? Rumi






                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by ESG View Post
                          tbtrailrider, the farm labor here won't work for less than $8/hour, and they don't have your experience. You're a bargain. I'd hire you in a minute.
                          Thanks...
                          I have not given up, but time after time, application after application, I never get a call back.
                          I have excellent references from people at Shadwell Farm in Versailles, a couple of vets at Hagyards in Lexington, and this fella..

                          http://www.woodsedgefarm.net/

                          Mexican men were instrumental in my leaving that farm, and I had been there 5 years.
                          I really do not mean to sound so non PC when I say that, but dammit, it's true.
                          No BO or FO is gonna fire 10 men becuase of 1 woman..the woman is gonna suffer.
                          I am now considering starting a horse sitting business......

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Jsalem View Post
                            When customers are willing to pay the real costs of keeping their horses in a boarding barn- then we'll talk.
                            When barn owners are willing to compensate employees fairly then they can complain.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Jsalem View Post
                              Poltroon, and there are people that would love to have a beautiful facility in a convenient location with board fencing and lush grass, and free choice hay and best quality feeds and deep bedding and groomed arenas and happy workers with their benefits- for $350 per month. Dear, it's not possible!
                              I have to side with the workers on this one. We live in the city but very close to a very nice surburban county that only has two real barns in the county (there are a few smaller places that are entirely owner operated - very small) The other two charge alot for board. One is $1100.00 a month with an additional monthly charge if you actually want your horse to be turned out for a couple of hours every day and the monthly board at the other one is $1950.00.
                              My daughter, who has grown up with horses and is a very experienced 25 yr old, applied to work at both places. They offered her minimum wage. She was expected to muck stalls, feed, turn out, groom, bathe, hold horses for vet and farrier, medicate, tack, hand walk, etc... for minimum wage?????? Who can live on that? I don't think either barn is "hurting" for money. They each have 40+ stalls and both are filled with a waiting list - I know this because I wanted to bring one of my horses closer to home so I could ride more and I'm on both waiting lists. So how can they expect people to want to work for them when they can't survive on the salary? Especially anyone with any kind of real experience and knowledge. Yes they would get raises but how are they supposed to survive until they've gotten enough raises to pay the rent and buy groceries?
                              The horse industry is notorious for back breaking work with very little compensation. Even the $10 an hour someone mentioned just doesn't go very far for anyone other than a 16 yr old kid.

                              If a barn owner can charge enough for board to be able to pay their employees a decent wage then they better be prepared to do the work themselves because they will never have steady employees - why would anyone want to work in a fairly dangerous job, for long hourse doing back breaking physical work? And that bit about "its show business" is just too silly. There's a HUGE difference between actors, musicians, and artists in the early days of their careers and barn laborers. I spent my entire career in the entertainment industry - the music business to be exact - and struggling artists have other jobs they go to while sending out demos, going on auditions etc hoping that something will hit. Barn workers are generally NOT aiming to ride in the Olympics they are just people looking to make a living doing what they like the best and are knowledgeable about and working in a barn IS their job. Not something they are doing to pay some kind of imaginary "dues". IF they are aiming for the Olympics then working in a barn would most likely end that dream for them since they wouldn't have enough time in the saddle because all of their time would be taken up taking care of your barn and your boarders horses! Besides with the current salaries they wouldn't have the money to pay for training!

                              Bottom line is if a barn owner is "paying" herself an hourly wage of $.76 and expects others to work cheaply as well then that barn owner is not turning any kind of real profit and they aren't really running a business but having a hobby. I would look into what is going wrong with the business and find a way to turn a better profit.
                              Last edited by MoonBallad; Oct. 20, 2006, 12:20 AM.
                              http://www.cafepress.com/hoplitefund

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by citydog View Post
                                When barn owners are willing to compensate employees fairly then they can complain.
                                Amen!

                                If someone think the horse business is all about "sacrafice" and are unwillinging to pay a decent salary for whatever reasons they come up with, then expect to get what you pay for and don't complain. And if you don't like the level of work you receive for $6/hour, then consider it a "sacrafice" of being a cheap employer.
                                <3 Vinnie <3
                                1992-2010
                                Jackie's Punt ("Bailey") My Finger Lakes Finest Thoroughbred

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  if we are talking about full time employees trying to make a living doing this-

                                  a) it is hard to break even running a barn but good employees actually save you money. Bad or unknowledgeable make mistakes that you have to fix. Sometimes it just requires time and physical effort to fix it and times it costs money to fix it. Clients leave do to help like that. Thats a loss as well.

                                  b) my staff gets housing, a vehicle to drive, meals sometimes, and an extra $25 a day when we are on the road to help pay for eating out. A low base salary isn't so bad when you have no overhead!

                                  c) health insurance and benefits. its expensive. payroll taxes are too as well as workmans comp. Hire illegals and that isn't needed. They work hard but are ILLEGAL. Lots of s.s. being lost.

                                  I pay my good people $400-$500, depending on how experienced they are, a week plus that $25 a day stuff when we are showing. So they can take home as much as 675 in one week. expense free! The problem is after a little while, they start slipping up at times that are crucial. $675 is alot of money to be spending to have an employee show up 3 days in a row 2 hours late and not want to wait for the blacksmith after 5 pm. The great workers that are trustworthy, reliable, and care about the horses are hard to find.

                                  Now if its working students we are talking about:

                                  They should work their butts off. they should be getting training from their mentor and great experience that well off kids pay big bucks for. These kids have to really want it. I was one who worked my butt off doing some things that were borderline torturous but I got back something in return that cannot be bought at any price. I earned it. I came out a better horseman because of it as well. I have tried to take in working students to give them the opportunity i had. They don't want to dig in If you think cleaning 5 bridles, grooming the horses you are riding that day, and filling water buckets equals a lesson or two everyday and a free horse to show in the equitation that weekend, your wrong. A lot of kids think any more work then that is crazy and that they have earned it all. They dont want to work. Maybe its the influence of the ones who have it easier. Don't get me wrong,some wealthy kids work hard and have a bit of horsemanship but they also have the luxury of their own horses, custom boots, and weekly flight to florida.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Gayla View Post
                                    The problem is with you the employer, always. Just like when a rider wants to blame the horse...
                                    I respectfully disagree. I have seen people take very well paid horse jobs ($2500 month cash, plus a place to live, plus health and dental) and still be slackers. I have to agree with the folks who say today's world is simply full of slackers! Doesn't matter what you pay. I see it in the corporate world AND the horse world. People who take off more than a reasonable amount of time. People who come in late and leave early. People who cannot be trusted to do as you requested the moment your back is turned. People who lie and say they did work they didn't do. This a wide-ranging problem not specific to the horse industry. It has to do with poor parenting and parents who don't ever want their kids to dislike them, so they do not discipline and they do not demand that the child do as they are told. If a child grows up ignoring his parent's requests, he certainly isn't going to be any more obedient to a boss. The difference is, the boss can fire him.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Just a note, it is the employer's minimum legal obligation to pay worker's comp and to withhold and pay payroll taxes. If you are not doing that, you could be looking at a heap of trouble down the road.

                                      It is true that there are slackers at every pay level. I can tell you about slackers at $100 an hour and up. But, if you want someone to stay with you for several years as a permanent job, you should expect to give them the same compensation you would need to do it and live a life. People who are fretting about paying their bills aren't reliable and steady employees regardless of their base nature. As Gayla points out, it doesn't all have to be in cash. Smart people aren't going to and shouldn't have to impoverish themselves for you, particularly if they believe that if they get hurt and can't work that you'll toss them out on their ear, no place to live, unable to work. Respect your people and mentor them and that will also keep them longer than the money alone.

                                      By all means, pass it on to the clients. They too are slackers, expecting to board their horses for less than cost.
                                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        As a kid, I always dreampt of going pro and one day making a living off of riding and showing. Once reality hit and I experienced the life of showing on the "A" circuit at which point we maxed out our budget completely to allow me to go to 10-12 shows per year with a green horse (because we couldn't afford one already made up), I realized how UNrealistic that life was for someone trying to make a living in the industry. Even then, I was blindingly aware of the differences between me and the other kids that basically lived at the horse show because of their financial situation. That's when I realized I love riding. I love being able to show, to have my own horse, to have my own "time" and the dream kind of fell apart. I saw my trainers working 12 hour days without even touching their own horses, much less putting in ride time on their own guys because their time is totally monopolized by the needs of the client.
                                        Instead, I am taking a break from riding for a while (as hard as that is) and I have leased out my wonderful, not so green anymore, horse to a kid starting the childrens. Instead of investing in the bottomless pit that is horses, I'm investing in my education so that I might one day have a job to support the type of riding I'm really interested in doing. As many of you want to say that there is this huge plethora of oppurtunity available to the hard worker- you're wrong. There's a huge plethora of oppurtunity available for you to acquire cheap labor from people who are too passionate about the business to care, only to have them burn out because they're sick of living in your "housing" eating ramen noodles for 3 meals a day. Most of the positions available out there don't even pay enough to survive off of, much less enough to be able to maintain a horse of your own. Why do you think so many migrant workers are willing to work in the business? Because it's unskilled labor (for the most part, and what isn't unskilled is easily picked up with experience) that pays minimum wage and you don't have to be a genius to do it. I don't know about most people, but I've not been interested in holding an unskilled manual labor position for someone whose standards are already so high, there's no way to keep the employer happy since I was 14 and I thought my trainer could walk on water.
                                        And to the poster who said we are living in a time when kids think they are all special- Amen! It's about time kids got smart about their goals and instead of taking the winding, unproductive, not-useful-in-the-real-world, road, take the direct route of REAL education (don't get me started on "equine degrees") so that a REAL job (with benefits, more than a living wage, and *gasp* a little money left over to feel comfortable and enjoy life) might support this incredibly expensive sport.
                                        I whole-heartedly agree that BOs need to either offer their employees enough money to make a position desirable, or stop complaining. No wonder no one can find "good" workers in this industry- all the good ones have realized it's not worth it and gone on to the next step in order to stay in the game! And if you can't afford to make ends meet while paying your employees a decent salary, then perhaps you, too, should look into another career path. That, or downsize so you don't need employees. My trainer has 8 stalls at $700/month with 7 of those being boarders. She does all of the work by herself. This (plus lessons, both on and off the farm, shows, sales, training, etc.) is how she makes a living. Perhaps it's the BOs that need to get their priorities straight.
                                        Last edited by FrenchFrytheEqHorse; Oct. 20, 2006, 07:32 AM. Reason: edited for grammatical issues...
                                        Here today, gone tomorrow...

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Gayla View Post
                                          I think that way to attract good barn help is with good benefits such as a place to live for free, with room for a small family or at least a partner, some paid time off that you fill in, travel, free board on a horse and show privilages such as free trailer space, they cover their own stall, entry fees, you cover their days at the farm so many times a year so they can go to a few shows with their shifts covered. You have to be creative and think about what you can give them that is NOT money. It is proven over and over again that people are not motivated by money and can get along on very little if there are other things in the job that they love.
                                          YES YES YES!!!!

                                          This is what I'm looking for...I work at a large company right now, I make almost 17/hr and I have benefits and 401K. I HATE IT. I am bored silly.

                                          I could take a cut in salary IF board for both of my horses was included. I do want insurance, but if it was only health, that would be okay. I can live without vision/dental for now. I am willing to come in early and stay late to do self care for my horses, so that I am not working with them during paid hours. I would tote kids to horse shows on school horses on my day off, if they needed me to.

                                          There is not much I wouldn't do to care for my horses, and to be with them all day. I have worked at many barns, and there are those coveted positions out there that pay well and have excellent benefits...but the people IN those positions have been there FOR YEARS because they are great jobs...so it's hard to come by these good positions.

                                          Bottom line is I just want to be with horses. I'm not trying to get rich...I want to get up every morning, jump in my truck with my dogs, sipping my coffee, and open big barns doors and hear nickers greeting me...as I watch my dog chase the barn cat and then watch the cat chase the dog...and head straight for the radio, then the feed room...

                                          To me, that's a dream job...
                                          My boys...
                                          http://community.webshots.com/user/FirstStepBack
                                          RIP Gem...for you are the greatest...thank you for the inspiration...I will always remember you!
                                          Gem Twist (1979-2006)

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