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  • Blaming the BO for this economic situation is like blaming a parent who has lost a job for not giving you an allowance
    I don't think anybody is blaming the BO for the economic situation. What I (and others) are blaming them for is thinking that they shouldn't have to go along with economic changes, such as the major increase in the cost of living these days. Sorry if the cost of running a barn is high, but employees are an important part to running many barns and if you can't afford good help and can't/won't do the work yourself, then you shouldn't have a barn....don't complain that there aren't good workers out there.

    The good workers are there....they are just the ones who get 9-5 jobs because they know they can't live off of what barns offer.
    <3 Vinnie <3
    1992-2010
    Jackie's Punt ("Bailey") My Finger Lakes Finest Thoroughbred

    Comment


    • No, of course not Eventer. Do you think that $10-$12/hr is screwing over a stall mucker? Do you think paying out $50K per year in housing, salary, insurance, benefits (like free boarding) for an inexperienced person to bring them along as a barn manager is screwing them over?

      There are plenty of people who pay these kind of wages, but not to employees with a chip or a bad attitude, no matter how good they are.
      www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
      "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
      Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

      Comment


      • I have owned a small, successful business for more than 10 years and hired (and fired) a few people along the way. I also consult with law firms across the country (notoriously poor employers who consistently complain about poor help and high turn-over, but treat employees like horse poo that got tracked into the firm).

        My own assistant has been with us for 8 years and practically ran the company on several occasions when I had personal problems. She came to me some 8 years ago, literally begging for a job. I did not have enough profit to hire a person, or so I thought. I liked her and did not say no, but did not say yes. She kept coming back asking for a job and when I asked her how much $$ she needed, she said $6 / hour. I laughed and said, well, we'll pay you $8 (now that was a few years ago). I also set up a SIMPLE retirement plan, group health insurance, and a schedule of paid holidays and earned vacation. And I gave HER raises before I gave them to myself. She is loyal, capable and trustworthy. She now has profit-sharing.

        I have had others that cost me $$ or simply failed to make me more $$. And all of those are gone. I also recently found a WONDERFULLY responsible high school girl to help out in my barn at home. I am paying her $7.50 an hour, and she is thrilled because everyone else wanted to pay her less than minimum wage, or else "barter" for her time. I am thrilled because she is capable and responsible and just fun to have around.

        I also have helped multiple dozens of law firms across the country revamp their employment practices and find and keep good staff.

        Here is a common hiring problem -- people want to hire someone to make their life easier. They want someone who will do the "dirty" work for low wages (because it's easy, right?) and then they rationalize that they cannot "afford" to pay more. Better thinking -- hire someone to help you make more money. If you are mucking stalls when you could be teaching lessons or training horses, or scoping out a project horse that you could re-sell, then hire someone to muck stalls. Pay that person based on the $$ he or she is helping you earn by freeing up your time. If you have nothing better to do with your time, then you should keep mucking stalls yourself. Actually cleaning a stall is probably not worth very much money if you base it on some scale of expertise or skill required. But it could / should be worth quite a bit if you base it on what it allows you to do to make more $$.

        If the economics of running a barn with well-paid help do not work out, then something about the situation needs to change. I consult with small firms all the time that really do not have the $$ to pay for help, but it always means there is something terribly awry with the financial management. Sometimes it means the owner is trying to take too much out of the proceeds.Sometimes the overhead is too high. Sometimes people are working hard, but not smart. Some things may need to be outsourced. Some things may need to be eliminated. Some things may have to be added.

        A good accountant / business manager might be able to help identify the problem areas. But the problem is NOT that there is no good help. There is plenty of good help. I am never UNABLE to find good help for my own business or for the businesses of my clients. The problem is almost always about finding the MONEY for good help. And it does NOT help to whine and think that someone should WANT to work for you for low wages. No one is that cute or fun to be around --not even our beloved horses!

        Comment


        • King's Ransom --

          Have you ever run a horse farm as a business operation with dozens of horses? A breeding operation, a foaling operation, a boarding operation -- caring for other peoples' horses? With your clients in and out all day long. Tending to each living creature 24/7? The economic and staffing dynamics are vastly other businesses

          That was discussed at length a few miles back on this interesting thread. In fact, a prior post I discussed my career in running successful businesses for 30 years (in much the same way you describe yours), with little if any turnover. Like you, I too have a track record in running successful companies with happy and satisfied employees.

          When I had a few horses at home, having a teenager to muck some stalls for $7.50 or work for barter (lessons) was fine.

          But the same model doesn't work in the professional horse industry -- due to the ecomomics and time involved in 24/7 care of these self-destructive but wonderful creatures.

          As I said, the market is not bearing the real cost of services of horse care.
          www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
          "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
          Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

          Comment


          • we too

            own our own business and also our own farm. I pay the guys who wash my cars and keep the lot clean $12/hr plus time and a half for overtime and paid health insurance. And damned if they don't quit when it gets too hot or too cold or too wet or too whatever. Now, they don't have to be OUTSIDE to do this or at least most of it and we buy them proper boots and coveralls and gloves, buy their lunch a time or two a week and have to darn near retrain them every day. "yes, we put the flags out and make sure everything has gas everyday, not just yesterday". We pay our manager (and we are a small mom and pop business) over $50K per year plus benefits and while she had more to do when we started than she has now and was making less, she is now pushing us to hire some additional staff as she has "too much to do". We live in an area where people with $7/hr skills want $12/hr. Don't tell me if I pay them better and treat them better they will perform better, I have, they don't they're outta there. If I have to hold your hand and wipe your nose and kiss your *** then I'm going to do it myself and put the money in my pocket. What it comes down to is this, ESG I want that job (as long as I can bring the husband and the corgi) and Boysnightout, well my dear, you are quite obviously a child, and while you may have worked and studied, what remains is that until you have been the person signing the paychecks and paying the bills, you have not a leg to stand on. The "ideal" example in the business world, does not always work. There are some areas with a lack of skilled or unskilled labor and a such a high level of competition for those jobs that good help is hard to find. I have been trying for 3 years to find some people to do the crap jobs (I consider vast amounts of paperwork to be more noxious than stall cleaning) without success. We pay far above the industry standard and treat our employees like valuable team members. And to thank us, we get taken advantage of at every possible opportunity, because they know we need them. If the price of board were raised to truly reflect the cost increases in the industry, half of the people that said that BO's should just suck it up would be forced into working a second job to afford their board bills. Maybe they could clean some stalls or something.....

            Comment


            • Actually, at 23, I think it's considered "young adult." Oh, and I do pay bills....my own, which is why I can easily say most barn jobs don't let workers make ends meet which is why the good workers don't want barn jobs. And I don't need to own a barn to understand the difficulties in running one....as stated before, common business sense.

              Sorry your workers quit, but what I am trying to get across is just because some people out there are crappy employees, doesn't mean everybody is. I wish people would stop lumping all workers in together as "lousy help" just because of a few bad incidents.

              But really, the name calling of "a child" when I haven't even said anything to you....grow up. Whose the child now.

              Anyways, since I have to wake up at 5:15am to go take care of horses at my job, I am bowing out of this fight since it's just going in circles. Barn owners don't pay enough to let workers make ends meet and all barn help sucks.....so be it, lol.
              <3 Vinnie <3
              1992-2010
              Jackie's Punt ("Bailey") My Finger Lakes Finest Thoroughbred

              Comment


              • most BO's pay $10-$12 per hour for stall muckers/feeders (without experience) instead of the $7-8 six years ago. Real estate taxes and liablitity insurance rates have shot up. Lumber for fencing/repair, ditto.
                FWIW - $25,000 a year is $13 an hour (not far off $12/hour).
                It's not an unliveable salary by any stretch in most parts of the country.

                However, $8.50 an hour is about $16,000 a year.
                At least in my neck of the woods, without housing or bennies, that's a nearly impossible salary to live on. Even at entry level, even if you do advance. As I said before, add housing, board, or bennies in and it's a completely different story.

                Oh, and I based that on a 40 hour week. I know that's not perfect, but so it goes.



                The "ideal" example in the business world, does not always work.
                It's up to the barn owner to make a business model that does work, one way or another. I do agree, on many levels, with what King's Ransom said - how much income can you generate in the time it would take for you to do the grunt work? How much peace of mind is $12/hour worth? Or giving up a room in your house and making an extra portion of dinner for someone you pay $10 an hour (Jsalem's $400/week + no rent).
                As I've said a thousand times, there's ways to make the situation liveable - but expecting people to find a way to live on nothing and then bitching about never having good help is *obviously* not working.
                ---
                They're small hearts.

                Comment


                • What's so ironic is that most BO's I know LOVE DOING THE "CRAP" JOBS if they only had the time for it !! And believe me, most of us have done more of them than ANY employee for a longer period of time.

                  I've always loved it because it is physically invigorating and allows me to let go of the weight of responsiblity of doing my corporate job that bring in $$ to support the farm and the horses here -- at least for awhile.

                  I love doing stalls (and believe me, I'm aces at it when help doesn't show up). I've done it all for many, many, many years..as most BO's will attest, they have too. But, like others here my older body can't do it much now. All my physical labor with horsecare, raising and training babies, rehabbing training for others' problem horses -- and horsefarming itself -- has now taken its toll.

                  Why do employees think that BO's have not ever done crap work? We've done it and a lot longer than those who apply for jobs. We've done it all...and shoot, I'm active on the BB tonight because I'm up all night giving injections every 2 hours to one of my seriously ill horses. I"m cranky. I'd rather be in bed. I haven't even had dinner yet and it's 11 pm. I can't go to sleep until 6:30 a.m. -- and I have to go to work tomorrow.

                  THIS IS WHAT HORSE PEOPLE DO. BO's who care for horses do this often for other peoples' horses who live at their farm, because we love all horses. Do we get paid for it? No. Caring for horses is gratifying unto itself. We dont' nickel and dime it...but our employees are today. That means to me that they shouldn't be in the business. That means, money first...horse care later.

                  Considering the new ecomomics -- most BO's like me must continue a living outside the farm to make enough money to pay for the costs of horse tending. To delegate these tasks so I can earn the money to do this is the new challenge! I know I'm not alone. That's why I no longer board.

                  I still think that there may be a misperception here that we may have missed in this discussion....is that it to most, horses are a "hobby" or a "luxury".

                  This perception from employees who struggle to keep ONE horse (as a hobby or luxury) flows over to BO's who have mulitple horses as if it is a hobby too. It may look like the "grass is greener" on the other BO side.

                  Horses are intoxicating for all of us. it's easy to forget the nuts and bolts of keeping them --whether it is the cost of boarding them (the "market" which is rightfully clueless as to their cost), as a new "at home" owner (who finds how much horse care impedes on have a "normal social life" and keep you home, and can threaten a marriage), or as an employee who's working in this field to try to subsized their horse and doesn't have a clue about either scenario...just wanting to "live the dream".

                  Perhaps they see our well cared for farms and horses as an indulgent endeavor. Talking to clients, working with horses, while they do stalls...all the "heady" and dreamy stuff they think is the most important part of horse business.

                  The most important part of a horse business is taking good care of the horses. And that means being inconvenienced all the time and changing one's life from what they thought it might be, if one is in it for the long haul and for what it gives us that money alone cannot.

                  There may be some jealousy with staffing because of PERCEPTION...but clearly not reality. They don't understand that we started where they did (re: crap work). The difference is, we anti upped our own $$ to set our sails in caring and training other peoples' horses. At that point it becomes a business...and with that comes an obligation to clients and to these 24/7 care, living things that are entrusted to our care and expertise. And we need employees that understand this. That's what is lacking now for those of us running good horse farms.

                  It's odd that I'm JUST tiring in my 50's physically, and youngsters who want to have a "career" in horses are bailing in their 20's.

                  Cripes, I'm finding myself afraid of imposing" on my farm help lest the leave because they had to work late. I don't even ask, nor will I take an offer to work late. They keep score and it will come back to haunt me later. So I do it myself.

                  It's sad that we're living in an economic environment with horses where some help is better than no help.

                  While I"m up tonight and using the BB to keep me awake for my 24 hr. meds schedule for my horse, it's appropriate to say that this is what we BO's do for the horses in our care. Our "payment' is to find a healthy, happy horse when we wake up in the morning before any farm help even arrives.

                  I don't blame people for fleeing this line of work. It's hard, it's imposing and in this day and age it's what the work force is being told to avoid.

                  Eventually there will come a time when those who want a life with horses, but can't afford to keep them at home, will find themselves not being able to keep a horse at all as boarding prices rise to meet with horse care cost...unless they can make the bigs bucks elsewhere to afford it.
                  www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                  "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                  Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                  Comment


                  • sid, jingling for your boy.

                    I can see your frustration, and don't quite comprehend why your barn help won't, well, help at such a crutial time. Every 2 hours is so tough when you're already stressed emotionally. Regarding the extra hours, I always thought "extra" constituted extra unplanned days, or firing one employee and not replacing them for months, thus causing the remaining worker(s) to have to pick up the slack and most likely stay late every day. Worse if there's only one worker. But something this serious??? Sure there are benefits to having 9-5 jobs, but it just doesn't happen in the horse world, and although I think a reasonable hour is desired for ho-hum days, I can't see demanding that every single working day.

                    This past year, a friend of mine was using a very nice RID. He was a doll, but had colic surgery as a 2yo I believe, and ended up colicking again twice at her place. It was very serious the second time around, and between our circle of 3 very good friends, we managed a schedule around our work hours so someone could be with the horse at all times during the day and night. I'm sorry nobody is there to help you. I don't think you should have asked, if you were here, people would have offered. How sad that they call themselves a horseperson and yet cannot offer their time when it's needed most, most especially if they live within close driving distance or on the property.

                    Wishing you guys the best, sending cyber hugs and coffee.

                    Comment


                    • Be it a manure fork, saddle sponge, shovel or whatever I'm up for the job. A day of hard work only serves to make a person feel more accomplished, if only some would step up to the plate and try it.
                      "...through his mane and tail the high wind sings,
                      Fanning the hairs, who wave like feathered wings." William Shakespeare

                      Comment


                      • Yes... coffee. I'm fading. I'm only posting becuase it's keeping me awake for Bo. In fact, I might not be making much sense. You've been up with sick horses and I'm sure you know how punchy you can get. I live alone so I only have myself to keep me awake.

                        Kenya coffee..think I have some. That should do the trick.

                        Equus...thanks for your well wishes!

                        Susan
                        www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                        "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                        Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ESG View Post
                          My experience, exactly. Most of the guys that come up from Mexico and central America have grown up with livestock of some kind or another, often horses. Since they're raised in an agrarian environment, you don't have to teach them what's expected, since they already know. But since the government has made it so hard to hire illegals, and it's so hard and such a long process to get a green card for most of these folks, you're playing with fire if you hire one. I hate it, but there you go.


                          But you can't. That's the rub. As Jsalem said, if we as barn owners were to raise our boarding rates enough to TRULY reflect our costs, and build in a tiny profit for ourselves as well as paying our help, no one could afford to board, much less pay for lessons and training. And if we do the work ourselves, there is no time/energy left for lessons/training.



                          I don't think there's an area in the country where cheaper labor is plentiful. If it were, we'd probably not be having this discussion. But I don't think that's the crux of the problem. It's the kids that seem to think that, because they want to make a living doing something "fun" or "glamorous", why then, it should be made available to them. But the truth of the matter is that the industry pays badly at all except the very top level, and that's not going to change anytime soon. And until the newcomers to the industry accept that fact, then the rants/vents about lazy laborers and parsimonious barn owners will continue.

                          JMO.
                          Actually it might be worthwhile for you to check in to the INS and the way you can sponsor and H1B- that's the visa these folks would need- there is a way for sure- as we do it all the time with Information tech peeps from India- it's like $ 2500 and you hold the visa for 6 years. That's worth it.
                          I completely see your picture and frustration. Here in So Cal we have lots and lots of immigrants and maybe it's a bit tougher to check things or what- I don't know- but there are plenty of them always coming in and labor is not hard to find. That's why boarding rates are relatively still reasonable. Because once you add the training- you're talking 1K or more per month- that 's without shoes or vet....
                          "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                          Comment


                          • sid, Just wanted to say (before popping off to bed) I have really enjoyed reading your contributions to this interesting thread.

                            I want to thank you and my trainer and all the other barn owners for being the means by which this "city girl" got to experience the and and and of being involved with horses.

                            Sad to say, but in the future this experience may well be out of reach for all but the very wealthy.

                            Fingers crossed for your horse.

                            Comment


                            • Thanks Claire --

                              To keep my horses and contribute to others' I'll be working until I'm 95 to support the effort. God willing I live that long (grin).

                              It's quite a life -- especially when doing it alone with no family to help. But I wouldn't trade this life with horses for the world!

                              As Bob Dylan sang "the times, they are a changing". BO's and employees must adapt. BO's are. Employees are not...that's just the new culture.

                              I understand it. Don't like it because it doesn't help horses, but I DO understand it.
                              www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                              "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                              Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by sid View Post
                                Thanks Claire --

                                To keep my horses and contribute to others' I'll be working until I'm 95 to support the effort. God willing I live that long (grin).

                                It's quite a life -- especially when doing it alone with no family to help. But I wouldn't trade this life with horses for the world!

                                As Bob Dylan sang "the times, they are a changing". BO's and employees must adapt. BO's are. Employees are not...that's just the new culture.

                                I understand it. Don't like it because it doesn't help horses, but I DO understand it.
                                Not so sure about that- the big R word is being tossed around, the war in Irak is killing us and Mr. B is deaf, mute and blind....sooo- you might just be finding a different story soon- I hope that sincerely for you- as I love the farm life and the independent BOs.

                                (my mom is one in Germany and there because of the solid and hundreds of year old strong agriculture life- the next door farmer comes around and lends a helping hand (of course paid) but very competent, quick and hard working- my mom is 75, still riding strong and running her yard like a captain runs his ship- thru the fiery sea...come hell or high waters...LOL!

                                Take care Sid and jingles to your boy!
                                "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                                Comment


                                • Sabine...call me stupid or call me just plain pooped.

                                  What is the "R" word????
                                  www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                                  "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                                  Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by sid View Post
                                    Sabine...call me stupid or call me just plain pooped.

                                    What is the "R" word????
                                    Sorry lady- you're not stupid and it's NOT Rollkur...LOL! it's called
                                    RECESSION- a major breakdown of the economy - a time to grow veggies in your backyard- a time to cut back-....sorry to break the bad news to you!
                                    "the man mite be the head but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she wants..." -smart greek woman

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by EventingJ View Post
                                      Apparantly ESG needs to go back and try to survive off of what she thinks barn works should make and no health care! Gee. I have tons of expirience not only running barns but also working for some great trainers, for 10+ years. What do I do now? Oh thats right I'm a med tech because I need health insurance and I'd like to be able to afford to actually own a horse... plus my house!
                                      Been here, done this, got the T shirt. Only I wanted badly enough to continue in the horse business that I went out and got a <gasp!> full time job, and worked horses part time. I worked two jobs for several years before working myself up to the point where I could go out on my own and make a living. And pay for health care. And pay for three horses. So again, don't presume to lecture me - I know what it takes to be in the business, and I've proven that I'm willing to do it. When you can say the same, I'll give your words more weight.
                                      In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                      A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                      www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

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                                      • Originally posted by Sabine View Post
                                        Actually it might be worthwhile for you to check in to the INS and the way you can sponsor and H1B- that's the visa these folks would need- there is a way for sure- as we do it all the time with Information tech peeps from India- it's like $ 2500 and you hold the visa for 6 years. That's worth it.
                                        I'll check that out. Thanks very much for the info! I have a worker in mind that I would kill to have back, and this might be the answer. Thanks again.
                                        In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                        A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                        www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by 2ndyrgal View Post
                                          own our own business and also our own farm. I pay the guys who wash my cars and keep the lot clean $12/hr plus time and a half for overtime and paid health insurance. And damned if they don't quit when it gets too hot or too cold or too wet or too whatever. Now, they don't have to be OUTSIDE to do this or at least most of it and we buy them proper boots and coveralls and gloves, buy their lunch a time or two a week and have to darn near retrain them every day. "yes, we put the flags out and make sure everything has gas everyday, not just yesterday". We pay our manager (and we are a small mom and pop business) over $50K per year plus benefits and while she had more to do when we started than she has now and was making less, she is now pushing us to hire some additional staff as she has "too much to do". We live in an area where people with $7/hr skills want $12/hr. Don't tell me if I pay them better and treat them better they will perform better, I have, they don't they're outta there. If I have to hold your hand and wipe your nose and kiss your *** then I'm going to do it myself and put the money in my pocket. What it comes down to is this, ESG I want that job (as long as I can bring the husband and the corgi) and Boysnightout, well my dear, you are quite obviously a child, and while you may have worked and studied, what remains is that until you have been the person signing the paychecks and paying the bills, you have not a leg to stand on. The "ideal" example in the business world, does not always work. There are some areas with a lack of skilled or unskilled labor and a such a high level of competition for those jobs that good help is hard to find. I have been trying for 3 years to find some people to do the crap jobs (I consider vast amounts of paperwork to be more noxious than stall cleaning) without success. We pay far above the industry standard and treat our employees like valuable team members. And to thank us, we get taken advantage of at every possible opportunity, because they know we need them. If the price of board were raised to truly reflect the cost increases in the industry, half of the people that said that BO's should just suck it up would be forced into working a second job to afford their board bills. Maybe they could clean some stalls or something.....
                                          Bravo!
                                          In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                          A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                          www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

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