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Horse Slaughter Bill UPDATE + URLs

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  • #61
    Originally posted by JumpingPaints View Post
    So in the same way that I'm called a hypocrite for eating meat (humane certified or otherwise), I will question people about condemning slaughter for their own horses, but not for others.
    But I don't think there are very many people who would argue that the slaughter system for horses is perfectly A-OK and should be left alone. Certainly on this board, the vast, vast majority (if not all) of the people who are called "pro-slaughter" seem to readily agree that there are problems that need to be fixed. They just don't agree that a ban is the way to fix them.

    Basically, you have two groups -- there are people who are OK with the IDEA of slaughter, and there are people who aren't.

    Within the first group, there are going to be varying opinions on the status of the current system and what needs to be done.

    Personally speaking, I am OK with the IDEA of slaughter. I wouldn't send my own horse that route because of my own personal preferences regarding what happens with his body, not because I believe it's humane or inhumane, or morally right or wrong. Just my personal preference.

    Now, if I knew someone who was planning to send their horse that route, I'd try to talk them out of it, for all the reasons already outlined by the anti-slaughter folks. I don't think the system, as it currently stands, is a very good one.

    So I suppose you could say that I do, in fact, "condemn" slaughter, as it currently stands, for everyone. But I don't feel it has to be this way, and I don't believe a ban is the best solution.

    Comment


    • #62
      i swore i wouldn't get dragged into this argument again - but i really must take exception to gail's posts.

      I mean this sincerely and without malice gail, you may want to rethink your approach to dealing with the public on this matter. you hold yourself out to be a spokesperson for your organization. and frankly - the more i read - the less i think of that organization. not because i am "pro-slaughter", but because i am turned off by the vitriol, the hate mongering, the name calling that you do - (and therefore your organization condones). lord knows i'm not perfect - but i'm not a spokesman for a non-profit. you are - you must meet a higher standard of conduct. (that is my view)

      you may not care about that. if you want to sway people to your side, and encourage people to support your work, and that of your organization - you may want to refrain from calling them animal abusers and instead, work on consensus building and forming partnerships - and even friendships with people who may not see 100% eye to eye with you on everything.

      what i take away from your posts (and i read them all) is that your organization is not credible. and that is what i pass on to others who are involved in animal welfare work.

      i've said before - not that it matters - that i see horse slaughter merely as part of a larger issue - how, with the myriad of changes in agriculture, do we ensure that all animals are treated humanely (regardless of their fate).

      i cannot support this bill - not because the arguments have no merit - but because i don't believe this bill will resolve the underlying issues.

      none of this is intended to insult you personally, nor to suggest that your work on equine issues is totally without merit.

      i just get a bit tired (and admittedly a bit temperamental) when any attempt to discuss this very important issue devolves into name calling or moral haranguing. that's all. i'd hate for this one to go down that overly traveled path.
      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
      -Rudyard Kipling

      Comment


      • #63
        OMG Its a record..

        Originally posted by Erin View Post
        But I don't think there are very many people who would argue that the slaughter system for horses is perfectly A-OK and should be left alone. Certainly on this board, the vast, vast majority (if not all) of the people who are called "pro-slaughter" seem to readily agree that there are problems that need to be fixed. They just don't agree that a ban is the way to fix them.

        Basically, you have two groups -- there are people who are OK with the IDEA of slaughter, and there are people who aren't.

        Within the first group, there are going to be varying opinions on the status of the current system and what needs to be done.

        Personally speaking, I am OK with the IDEA of slaughter. I wouldn't send my own horse that route because of my own personal preferences regarding what happens with his body, not because I believe it's humane or inhumane, or morally right or wrong. Just my personal preference.

        Now, if I knew someone who was planning to send their horse that route, I'd try to talk them out of it, for all the reasons already outlined by the anti-slaughter folks. I don't think the system, as it currently stands, is a very good one.

        So I suppose you could say that I do, in fact, "condemn" slaughter, as it currently stands, for everyone. But I don't feel it has to be this way, and I don't believe a ban is the best solution.
        Erin and I agree on something!!! Get the beer!! .. no seriously Very well said! Thats exactly the point many of us have tried to make. Great summary!!

        Comment


        • #64


          Sannois, we will have to keep that in mind on the next political thread!

          Cheers!

          And thank you, J Swan, for saying more cogently what I tried to say to Gail earlier. I agree 100 percent.

          Comment


          • #65
            LOL

            Originally posted by Erin View Post


            Sannois, we will have to keep that in mind on the next political thread!

            Cheers!

            And thank you, J Swan, for saying more cogently what I tried to say to Gail earlier. I agree 100 percent.
            Well I have read all your responses on this thread ! and all I can say is.. where have you been all this time with these Slaughter threads! Excellent points all!

            Comment


            • #66
              I pop in on them now and again... but it seems that people are rarely interested in actual discussion of ideas, and would rather disparage those who don't agree as not being "true" horse lovers, so I give up.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Erin View Post
                Toyota, Honda, etc. have plants here. They certainly have to follow all the same OSHA regulations as the Chevy and Ford plants, same EPA regulations, etc.

                I don't know about the specifics, but we have lots and lots of foreign-owned companies operating in the U.S. I don't really think that affects how they operate in accordance with U.S. laws. (Taxes might be another story... I have no idea.)
                And THOSE foreign companies are producing products being used by Americans.

                OUR horsemeat does not hit any of OUR Kroger stores.

                ************************
                \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by luvmytbs View Post


                  And THOSE foreign companies are producing products being used by Americans.

                  OUR horsemeat does not hit any of OUR Kroger stores.

                  And, IMO, that's yet another emotional argument that really isn't meaningful.

                  Isn't that the same as saying slaughter isn't good enough for MY personal horse, but OK for someone else's? (Which has been attacked repeatedly here.)

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I just wanted to state that I am unequivocally against the slaughter of horses in the United States period. People who know me would call me a logical person rather than an emotional one. I have probably read all of the arguments against the proposed legisltaion - and even have an issue with it myself - but nothing that comes close to persuading me not to support it. It is actually quite well drafted.
                    To those who say that they oppose legislation eliminating horse slaughter in the US, but would like to see the slaughter of horses, transportation , etc., made more humane, I'd suggest an alternative to opposing this legislation. Consider this: Support this legislation as there is no legislation or major effort in effect that makes the transportation or slaughter process more humane for horse - nothing significant is happening in that area. Once slaughter is banned by this bill, if you want slaughter reinstated, use the fact that it's banned as a tool to force more humane treatment of horses in transportation and slaughter. The bill gives you more power, and ensures (to the extent possible) that horses are not put into the system as it now exists.
                    I suggest that pro-slaughter horse lovers seek to take the horses out of the slaughter system while it is in its current state (via this legislation), make the process more humane and then seek to have slaughter of horses reinstated. That is a much better option and meets your goals in a much more effective manner while protecting horses from a system that most people believe has some serious flaws.
                    As for me, I'll reman anti-slaughter of horses for numerous reasons which I have stated in the past adnauseum.
                    Last edited by Coyoteco; Oct. 11, 2006, 07:42 PM. Reason: two typos

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Erin View Post
                      And, IMO, that's yet another emotional argument that really isn't meaningful.

                      Isn't that the same as saying slaughter isn't good enough for MY personal horse, but OK for someone else's? (Which has been attacked repeatedly here.)

                      I took that quote to mean that possibly the standards are more lax because the end product does not affect American consumers. I guess it's in the interpretation.
                      DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!! - God

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        horsemeat is eaten in the US. maybe not by your socio-economic group - but it is eaten. as our population changes in ethnic makeup -so does food choices. for example - goat meat is in greater demand; a demand fueled by cultures in which that meat is normal fare. yet one does not generally see goat meat in mainstream grocery chains in the us. you don't generally see rabbit meat either. but still - it is eaten.

                        just wanted to clear that up.

                        Originally posted by luvmytbs View Post


                        And THOSE foreign companies are producing products being used by Americans.

                        OUR horsemeat does not hit any of OUR Kroger stores.

                        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                        -Rudyard Kipling

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Lildunhorse View Post
                          I took that quote to mean that possibly the standards are more lax because the end product does not affect American consumers. I guess it's in the interpretation.
                          Could be... although I have seen the argument made here before that it's not right for "our" horses to end up on dinner tables overseas, and that they should slaughter "their" horses if that's what they want. If that's not the argument the poster was trying to make, though, I stand corrected.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Erin View Post
                            And, IMO, that's yet another emotional argument that really isn't meaningful.
                            It is not an emotional argument, because the Hondas are being sold to Americans thus creating revenue in THIS country.
                            Originally posted by Erin View Post
                            Isn't that the same as saying slaughter isn't good enough for MY personal horse, but OK for someone else's? (Which has been attacked repeatedly here.)
                            And why are you claiming there is no emotion in that statement?
                            ************************
                            \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by luvmytbs View Post

                              It is not an emotional argument, because the Hondas are being sold to Americans thus creating revenue in THIS country.
                              OK, I'm confused... are you saying that slaughter would be OK if it were a contributing to the U.S. economy, rather than another country's?

                              And why are you claiming there is no emotion in that statement?
                              I'm not -- in fact, I'd say it's almost a purely emotional decision-making process. Once my horse is dead, I'm pretty sure it makes no difference to him what happens to his body. It does make a difference to ME, however.

                              But I'm also not using that emotional statement as the basis for my position.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Erin View Post
                                OK, I'm confused... are you saying that slaughter would be OK if it were a contributing to the U.S. economy, rather than another country's?
                                No. I wasn't saying that.I was merely replying to your argument that there are other foreign owned companies in this country, pointing out that you cannot compare Honda to Beltex.


                                ************************
                                \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  First of all, I was comparing Honda to Beltex in the context of whether or not foreign-owned corporations operate any differently than U.S.-owned corporations IN the U.S. I don't believe they do, with regard to regulations, laws, etc. (I'm pretty sure Honda can't use child labor to build Civics in Ohio, for example).

                                  Secondly, what ARE you saying? And why can't I compare Honda to Beltex? Honestly asking here... I don't follow your argument here at all.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Coyoteco View Post
                                    I just wanted to state that I am unequivocally against the slaughter of horses in the United States period. People who know me would call me a logical person rather than an emotional one. I have probably read all of the arguments against the proposed legisltaion - and even have an issue with it myself - but nothing that comes close to persuading me not to support it. It is actually quite well drafted.
                                    To those who say that they oppose legislation eliminating horse slaughter in the US, but would like to see the slaughter of horses, transportation , etc., made more humane, I'd suggest an alternative to opposing this legislation. Consider this: Support this legislation as there is no legislation or major effort in effect that makes the transportation or slaughter process more humane for horse - nothing significant is happening in that area. Once slaughter is banned by this bill, if you want slaughter reinstated, use the fact that it's banned as a tool to force more humane treatment of horses in transportation and slaughter. The bill gives you more power, and ensures (to the extent possible) that horses are not put into the system as it now exists.
                                    I suggest that pro-slaughter horse lovers seek to take the horses out of the slaughter system while it is in its current state (via this legislation), make the process more humane and then seek to have slaughter of horses reinstated. That is a much better option and meets your goals in a much more effective manner while protecting horses from a system that most people believe has some serious flaws.
                                    As for me, I'll reman anti-slaughter of horses for numerous reasons which I have stated in the past adnauseum.
                                    This is the most reasonable compromise put forward yet.
                                    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Erin View Post
                                      I pop in on them now and again... but it seems that people are rarely interested in actual discussion of ideas, and would rather disparage those who don't agree as not being "true" horse lovers, so I give up.
                                      Erin, I have on countless occasions been on the receiving end of "disparaging" and disinterest in discussion of which you speak. Let's be fair now, it's definitely contributed by both sides!
                                      "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        I agree with Coyoteco too. I thought of expressing that thought many times.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          jp - i shamefully admit to indulging in outburts of temper - in fact i freely admit to it and have apologized.

                                          but you know - i don't recall any of y'all apologizing for insinuating that i was a lobbyist hired by the AAEP to troll here, or an apologist for Fish and wildlife, or cynical bitter pathetic - yatta yatta - the list goes on.

                                          fits of temper are all fine and well - but what i'm getting from the "anti" side is more than fits of temper - sometimes it borders (and crosses the line) into the zeal of the fanatic.

                                          a bit of a generalization - which is unfair. but that's the picture i'm getting - especially since some of y'all are quite candid about your affiliations and your personal interactions outside this BB.

                                          i do respect your position on this matter - i simply do not agree with it and will not support this legislation. and i hope that others see the problems with it and do not lend their support either.

                                          but none of that should suggest that i am not as deeply committed to animal welfare as you, or any other person. to suggest otherwise - well - that just serves no purpose except, perhaps, self aggrandizement.


                                          Originally posted by JumpingPaints View Post
                                          Erin, I have on countless occasions been on the receiving end of "disparaging" and disinterest in discussion of which you speak. Let's be fair now, it's definitely contributed by both sides!
                                          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                          -Rudyard Kipling

                                          Comment

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