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Horse Slaughter Bill UPDATE + URLs

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  • #41
    Hmmmm, Im confused... now which side is it that bases their decisions on "emotion"???

    Boysnightout wrote....
    "Because I feel it's up to every owner to decide what they want to do with their horses"...

    Given this sentiment, then would you also feel that it was ok for the guy down the road from me who drunkenly tried to euthanize his horse with an overdose of whatever he had in the barn, and upon discovering the horse was not yet dead, proceeded to light his still alive horse on fire in yet another feeble attempt to kill his horse?

    Im sorry, but the sentiment that it is a horse owners right to do what they want with their horse, just simply doesnt wash. Nobody has the right to inflict intentional suffering and cruelty upon another living being...human or animal. There are limitations to our "rights".

    As far as horse slaughter being a "necessary evil". I just have never been able to buy into the concept that "evil" is EVER necessary. Guess thats why I did my homework and discovered that the whole proslaughter "necessary evil" arguement is pure rubbish, 100% propaganda.

    I highly recommend that anyone who has fallen for this propaganda spend a little time reading the TRF White Paper... "Horse Slaughter.. An Unecessary Evil". http://www.trfinc.org/news/TRF_WhitePaper.pdf
    www.horse-protection.org

    No Horses to Slaughter Clique

    Comment


    • #42
      caffeinated,

      How would you propose to make commercial horse slaughter more "humane"? Remember, we are talking about commercial horse slaughter here, and not the mom and pop type shops where horses are slaughtered in a far different manner.
      www.horse-protection.org

      No Horses to Slaughter Clique

      Comment


      • #43
        So of all the "pro slaughter" folks who don't want horses to suffer or feel pain but still support slaughter if it is changed and made more humane....What do you suggest be done? Make more laws? Why? Laws are in place now to make slaughter and transport "humane" and they are not enforced...horses are hauled in abhorrent conditions and methods like double deckers and unsegrated with stallions and mares together, slaughter houses look the other way when horses show up with they eyes gouged out by transporters....the bolts miss often and need to be done several times...horses are not stunned properly and are concious while being processed...horses are killed in slaughterhouses designed for other species...no restraint is used to make stunning more accurate...and all of this has been going on for years and years and years...yet you all have done nothing to make it better. Everyone looks the other way and justifies it by saying "it's better than being neglected" or "other animals have it no better" (which is not true as many improvements have been implemented for other species) and it goes on the same way as it always has...horses suffer and people turn away and call it a necessary evil.

        I've heard all the arguments from the pro side and been called a hypocrite many times for wanting horse slaughter stopped while I continue to eat meat of other animals...and you know...it really comes down to finally doing something and not just looking the other way like I did for many years. I really believe the Senate will pass this bill and I am doing everything in my power to make it so.

        I don't believe the 90,000-unwanted-horses-will-suddenly-be-abused argument...it does not even make sense as do 95% of the other arguments I've seen to keep it legal. There is no evidence past or present to support it beyond the emotional arguments from people supposedly with the horses' welfare as their major concern.

        The only person on this forum who is at least honest enough to both support slaughter and sell horses to slaughter is County and I respect him for that honesty...but the apologists who keep saying it's OK for 90,000 other horses but not my own to be slaughtered...just think about what if it was your horse that was stolen and ended up on that cattle truck wreck in Missouri or you found his hide in the refuse container outside of Cavel after he was slaughtered...

        Comment


        • #44
          onthebit12000, I have to say, every time you post on one of these threads, it makes me less and less sympathetic to your cause.

          It is exactly that type of rhetoric that has turned so many actual horse-loving people away from this issue. Because unless you are in complete agreement with the party line, you're accused of wanting horses to suffer pain and mistreatment.

          It's too bad that so many people on the anti-slaughter side of the issue are so hostile to those who are not in complete agreement with them.

          Comment


          • #45
            Given this sentiment, then would you also feel that it was ok for the guy down the road from me who drunkenly tried to euthanize his horse with an overdose of whatever he had in the barn, and upon discovering the horse was not yet dead, proceeded to light his still alive horse on fire in yet another feeble attempt to kill his horse?

            Im sorry, but the sentiment that it is a horse owners right to do what they want with their horse, just simply doesnt wash. Nobody has the right to inflict intentional suffering and cruelty upon another living being...human or animal. There are limitations to our "rights".

            As far as horse slaughter being a "necessary evil". I just have never been able to buy into the concept that "evil" is EVER necessary. Guess thats why I did my homework and discovered that the whole proslaughter "necessary evil" arguement is pure rubbish, 100% propaganda.
            Haha, trust me, I did my homework too. I spent my whole senior year in college doing my research thesis paper on horse slaughter and people's perceptions to it....so trust me, I've read articles from both sides of the debate.

            I think the whole anti-slaughter side is pure rubbish and 100% propoganda. So I guess we disagree....nothing more to say over that.

            (Oh, and I when I said horse owners have a right to do whatever with their horses, I meant as far as slaughter goes, whether they should send them to the kill pen or not, since that's what we are talking about. Nowhere did I say that the neighbor down the street should be allowed to try and euthanize a horse then try and light it on fire. That's called animal cruelty and of course shouldn't be allowed. Obviously. So don't put words in my mouth to make me sound like i'm some heartless b*tch, thanks.
            <3 Vinnie <3
            1992-2010
            Jackie's Punt ("Bailey") My Finger Lakes Finest Thoroughbred

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Daydream Believer View Post
              So of all the "pro slaughter" folks who don't want horses to suffer or feel pain but still support slaughter if it is changed and made more humane....What do you suggest be done? Make more laws? Why? Laws are in place now to make slaughter and transport "humane" and they are not enforced...horses are hauled in abhorrent conditions and methods like double deckers and unsegrated with stallions and mares together, slaughter houses look the other way when horses show up with they eyes gouged out by transporters....the bolts miss often and need to be done several times...horses are not stunned properly and are concious while being processed...horses are killed in slaughterhouses designed for other species...no restraint is used to make stunning more accurate...and all of this has been going on for years and years and years...yet you all have done nothing to make it better. Everyone looks the other way and justifies it by saying "it's better than being neglected" or "other animals have it no better" (which is not true as many improvements have been implemented for other species) and it goes on the same way as it always has...horses suffer and people turn away and call it a necessary evil.

              I've heard all the arguments from the pro side and been called a hypocrite many times for wanting horse slaughter stopped while I continue to eat meat of other animals...and you know...it really comes down to finally doing something and not just looking the other way like I did for many years. I really believe the Senate will pass this bill and I am doing everything in my power to make it so.

              I don't believe the 90,000-unwanted-horses-will-suddenly-be-abused argument...it does not even make sense as do 95% of the other arguments I've seen to keep it legal. There is no evidence past or present to support it beyond the emotional arguments from people supposedly with the horses' welfare as their major concern.

              The only person on this forum who is at least honest enough to both support slaughter and sell horses to slaughter is County and I respect him for that honesty...but the apologists who keep saying it's OK for 90,000 other horses but not my own to be slaughtered...just think about what if it was your horse that was stolen and ended up on that cattle truck wreck in Missouri or you found his hide in the refuse container outside of Cavel after he was slaughtered...
              Just what I was about to bring up... you beat me to it!
              "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Daydream Believer View Post
                The only person on this forum who is at least honest enough to both support slaughter and sell horses to slaughter is County and I respect him for that honesty....
                Jesus Christ, talk about being damned with faint praise... County has stated in the past that he has NOT sold horses to slaughter, but he has sold horses, which could, under a future owner, go to slaughter. Which makes him like everyone else here who sells, or have ever sold, a horse. That is a far cry from him "selling horses to slaughter." Just because he believes it should be legal does not mean he is the one filling the trucks....
                "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." -Don Marquis
                **CEO of the TQ "Learn How To Ride or MOVE OVER!!" Clique**

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by onthebit12000 View Post
                  Im sorry, but the sentiment that it is a horse owners right to do what they want with their horse, just simply doesnt wash. Nobody has the right to inflict intentional suffering and cruelty upon another living being...human or animal. There are limitations to our "rights".
                  NO ONE here has said that suffering and cruelty is OK. NO ONE.

                  There are a lot of things that I personally wouldn't do with my horse that other people do all the time. As long as the horse is having its basic needs met and is not mistreated, that's their business, not mine.

                  I personally wouldn't send my aged horse "to the hounds." I know other people do, and I have no problem with that -- it's just not my cup of tea.

                  I also did not have the renderer pick up my two beloved retirees after they were euthanized. I had them cremated instead. Just my preference.

                  For the love of all things holy, please drop the ridiculous argument that it's inconsistent to not want to send one's own horse to slaughter, yet still believe it's OK for other people... IF done humanely, of course. (And yes, I'm well aware that most anti-slaughter people believe it can't be done humanely, so it must be banned. I disagree.)

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by onthebit12000 View Post
                    caffeinated,

                    How would you propose to make commercial horse slaughter more "humane"? Remember, we are talking about commercial horse slaughter here, and not the mom and pop type shops where horses are slaughtered in a far different manner.
                    I think commercial slaughter and raising of food animals in general (not just horses) is a big problem. Horses pay that price too just as a byproduct of the "we want shrink wrapped cheap meat" mindset of the American people- that's what drives and fosters the huge factory-farm-assembly-line slaughter system that we have today.

                    I think the whole system would be better if there were more, local, mom and pop shops available, honestly (again, not just for horses, though thankfully they do exist for other animals, just most consumers don't care enough to find them). It would mean shorter trips and less "need" for packing as many horses as possible on the trailer. It would mean slower "line speeds" which would leave less room for errors.

                    I don't have a solution for going back to that. I think the way our economy works, it would be impossible to do it- it's kind of gotten out of control. For other meat, I'm willing to pay more and buy locally from farms whose husbandry practices I agree with. But without an actual in-country market of that kind for horse, I don't think it would be viable.

                    I think the main place to start would simply be by putting actual teeth into current regulations. As Daydream noted, current laws are already not enforced. Making it a priority to enforce them would be a big help- but unfortunately I don't think it's a priority to the powers that be, and I honestly don't know how to make it a priority. Getting police to moniter horse transport when they're more concerned with drunk drivers, or getting more USDA inspectors at the horse plants when there are E. Coli outbreaks in spinach is just sort of hard.

                    I see this a lot in these threads- "well what's YOUR solution, huh huh?" I think this time it's an honest question, but a lot of times it's used as a bludgeon- "you don't have a solution so we will disregard your opinion completely as a raving lunatic with no useful ideas."

                    Anyway... I do know that it's possible to slaughter horses, even for human consumption, in a way that is not so horrible. I don't know whether it could actually work here, simply because of how our economy tends to work.

                    I really wish I had some magic bullet idea, but I don't.

                    I do think horse slaughter will end someday, either by ban or by becoming unprofitable for business. I think we will see what the results are in real-time, and I will quite happily say I was wrong if it works out for the best.

                    ETA- onthebit, I've read the white paper, and while I appreciate that it deals in real numbers and avoids a lot of the more emotionally twisting arguments, in the end, aren't their conclusions simply their opinion too? I just don't think any of us can say for sure what would happen. Someone with a different mindset could easily draw a different opinion from the same set of numbers, IMO. And with that, back to work, if I don't respond, it's because I actually have coding to do, and don't have a computer at home to sit at and obsess over this thread with, LOL
                    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                    My CANTER blog.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Caffeinated, I struggled to write what you just wrote, so thank you. I agree with you 100%.

                      I even went so far as to look up the word "commercial" in the dictionary. Commercial is a word that has always caused me to grit my teeth, because I think any time you function on a level of mass production, the thought that goes in to it suffers dramatically.

                      Horses have fallen victim to the mass production way of thinking, but the problem is, as you pointed out, there is no alternative to that here. Since the meat is being produced to send to foreign consumers, it would be up to them to choose to buy meat produced by more humane methods and therefore, by their investment in the industry, or more importantly, the lack there-of, control the method of production. And that is exactly why I support a ban on horse slaughter. The consumer influence aspect of it, which might be the most effective, is out of our control.
                      DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!! - God

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Posted by Spoilsport:
                        I'm sure there is misinformation/propaganda on both sides, but calling horse slaughter the “supervised humane euthanasia of unwanted horses” and a group that supports slaughter the "Horse Welfare Coalition" is pure doublespeak!!!
                        Posted by Boysnightout:
                        I think the whole anti-slaughter side is pure rubbish and 100% propoganda.
                        Talk about propaganda - did anyone else see the "Across the Fence" opinion column written by Steve Hicks, a DVM in Palestine, TX in the October issue of The Horse magazine? Entitled "Humane Concerns", here is an excerpt:
                        _____

                        "The method of euthanasia mandated by the USDA for all slaughter facilities has been criticized as inhumane by uninformed individuals. In reality, the American Verterinary Medical Association and the American Association of Equine Practitioners state that is it humane. The horse is euthanatized by a captive bolt "gun". This is similar to a .45 caliber bullet penetrating the brain within one-hundreth of a second. There is no pain associated with this type of euthanasia for the simple reason that nerve impulses cannot travel fast enough to allow the animal to register pain. Death is instantaneous and painless.

                        Transportation is another often criticized issue...Transported horses cannot be on a double-decker truck, they must be able to stand on all four, and they cannot be heavy in foal, hurt, or sick."
                        _____

                        IMO, Dr. Hicks has no clue what he's talking about. If I could find an email addy for him, I'd send him that video of the latest double-decker wreck in MO, along with a video or two of horses that were NOT killed "instantaneously" and "painlessly" by that "gun". Heck, I'd send him links to discussions on these boards about the double-decker wrecks in the past.

                        Posted by 3fatponies:
                        Jesus Christ, talk about being damned with faint praise... County has stated in the past that he has NOT sold horses to slaughter,
                        Oh, but he did say (in this thread on page two):

                        "Same way some of my horses I'd sell to slaughter and some I wouldn't. I don't like every horses the same way. I'm that way with people also. Some I love some I don't some I could care less about either way."

                        While he may not have technically sold any horses to slaughter yet, he sure seems inclined to do so, depending upon the particular horse.
                        Last edited by Liberty; Oct. 11, 2006, 05:55 PM.
                        Equus Keepus Brokus

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Erin,

                          I am not being hostile. I am simply asking legitimate questions to which I believe many people would like to hear the answers.

                          For the record, anyone who supports the current system of the commercial slaughter of horses in the three plants that are currently operating in the US, is indeed supporting the pain and suffering of the horses who are unlucky enough to fall into the hands of this industry. There is no gray area here, these 3 plants transport and kill horses in an inhumane manner. It is documented fact.

                          I have asked time and time again how those who support the continuance of horse slaughter would endeavor to make the commercial system more "humane". No one ever seems to be able to come up with any resolution that would actually in practice work in commercially slaughtering horses.

                          I guess you feel far more comfortable attacking me than you do with offering an honest answer to my questions.

                          Daydream...Im with you... I truly admire County for his honesty. An admirable quality indeed.
                          www.horse-protection.org

                          No Horses to Slaughter Clique

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            ps...Im not running off, however, I must tend to the "crew". Feedtime here is a 2 hour project (minimum).

                            caffeinated, Ive read your thoughtful reply and will respond later this evening. I too have done extensive research and wracked my brain on this topic and would love to share my thoughts and findings. thanks for your input!
                            www.horse-protection.org

                            No Horses to Slaughter Clique

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by onthebit12000 View Post
                              Erin,

                              I am not being hostile. I am simply asking legitimate questions to which I believe many people would like to hear the answers.
                              You don't think it's hostile to make the completely ridiculous assertion that BoysNightOut believes it's OK to set a horse on fire?

                              For the record, anyone who supports the current system of the commercial slaughter of horses in the three plants that are currently operating in the US, is indeed supporting the pain and suffering of the horses who are unlucky enough to fall into the hands of this industry. There is no gray area here, these 3 plants transport and kill horses in an inhumane manner. It is documented fact.
                              Yes, it is, and it's also documented fact in the slaughter of every other production species. So if you eat other kinds of meat, you are "supporting the pain and suffering" of cows, pigs, and chickens.

                              I have asked time and time again how those who support the continuance of horse slaughter would endeavor to make the commercial system more "humane". No one ever seems to be able to come up with any resolution that would actually in practice work in commercially slaughtering horses.
                              I think caffienated summed it up quite nicely.

                              We have lots of laws on the books regarding the humane treatment of animals, and it's certainly debatable whether or not any of them actually work very well in practice, since we still have lots of people abusing animals. The only 100 percent effective way to prevent morons like your alcoholic neighbor from abusing the animals they own is to not allow people to own animals.

                              Since most people realize that's not a particularly good plan, we instead do the best we can with enforcing the laws we have, and constantly work on improving the laws and the enforcement. Things are a lot better for animals now than they were a hundred years ago. (Of course, there are plenty of other countries that are still a hundred years behind us.)

                              It's not inconceivable that the equine slaughter industry could be improved... especially if people put as much effort and discussion into it as they have into the pie-in-the-sky ban. It certainly wouldn't be easy, for all the reasons caffienated already touched on. But it's not inconceivable.

                              I guess you feel far more comfortable attacking me than you do with offering an honest answer to my questions.
                              Nope, I'm perfectly comfortable answering questions... if you phrase them in an honest way, rather than painting anyone who dares disagree with your stance as an animal abuser.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by onthebit12000 View Post

                                I guess you feel far more comfortable attacking me than you do with offering an honest answer to my questions.
                                The same could easily be said for you and anti-slaughter people. To assume I'd support lighting a horse on fire is an attack on me, so you aren't one who should be allowed to complain about being attacked, when I really haven't said anything negative towards you as a person.
                                <3 Vinnie <3
                                1992-2010
                                Jackie's Punt ("Bailey") My Finger Lakes Finest Thoroughbred

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Erin View Post
                                  It's not inconceivable that the equine slaughter industry could be improved... especially if people put as much effort and discussion into it as they have into the pie-in-the-sky ban. It certainly wouldn't be easy, for all the reasons caffienated already touched on. But it's not inconceivable.


                                  Well, I have a question, then. How can we improve the equine slaughter industry when the plants are foreign owned? Do they pay income tax like American owned businesses? What has happened in the past when they have been fined for violations? Do they have a training policy and training manuals for their staff? Are their training logs made available to the public? And why is it that slaughter facilities are foreign owned, and not American owned?
                                  Ok, I guess that's more than one question.
                                  DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!! - God

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    People here (me included) have very different opinions about slaughter. I am against horse slaughter because the system - from auction to feedlot to transportation to the processing - predisposes horses to risk of what I consider undue suffering, at some point in the slaughter pipeline. I also think it's really unrealistic to believe it's feasible (from legislative, cost and business standpoints) that the entire system can be made more humane.

                                    So when people say they wouldn't send their own horses to slaughter, but it's okay if others do, my interpretation is that I shouldn't be concerned about the potential for suffering to horses that are not mine. I just am not wired that way. I cannot watch the HSMO truck wreck video without being moved - and I don't know those horses from Adam. In the same way, just because I don't abuse my cats, I think it is my business if my neighbors abuse theirs. So in the same way that I'm called a hypocrite for eating meat (humane certified or otherwise), I will question people about condemning slaughter for their own horses, but not for others.
                                    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Toyota, Honda, etc. have plants here. They certainly have to follow all the same OSHA regulations as the Chevy and Ford plants, same EPA regulations, etc.

                                      I don't know about the specifics, but we have lots and lots of foreign-owned companies operating in the U.S. I don't really think that affects how they operate in accordance with U.S. laws. (Taxes might be another story... I have no idea.)

                                      I always thought that the complaint about the horse slaughter facilities being foreign-owned was just another emotional argument, i.e. "those furriners are coming in and taking OUR horses!" I'm willing to stand corrected if there are other reasons to be concerned about it... but, logically (and considering the huge number of foreign-owned enterprises here in the U.S.), I can't really imagine that they operate any differently than they would if U.S.-owned.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        I don't think onthebit2000 attacked anyone. She asked this hypothetical question:

                                        Originally posted by onthebit12000 View Post
                                        Given this sentiment, then would you also feel that it was ok for the guy down the road from me who drunkenly tried to euthanize his horse with an overdose of whatever he had in the barn, and upon discovering the horse was not yet dead, proceeded to light his still alive horse on fire in yet another feeble attempt to kill his horse?
                                        She was responding to the argument that "what other people do with their horses is not my business" by following that logic to its absurd result. That's done in debate all the time.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Ah yes, a "thoughtful" letter from Stenholm, the former elected official who received more campaign contributions from the Cattlemen's Association than any other federally elected official. . . the Cattlemen's Association. . . one of two American entities who receive kickbacks for every horse slaughtered so gourmet diners in foreign countries can chow down on American horse. . . now just who is scratchin whose behind with those bloody greenbacks?
                                          bryn

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