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Ethics/morality question.

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  • #21
    Originally posted by JSwan View Post
    The FEI's "zero tolerance policy" is a joke.

    And not because I think it's ok to drug a horse.
    Hell Fire, I "drug" my horses any time they get sick or hurt. If, of course, drugs are indicated. If not, I don't.

    Some medications have a potential "performance enhancing" side effect. Some people "game" the system by using those medications to get that side effect. Some vets are corrupt and aid and abet this approach. A rational policy can be devised to deal with this. But it takes some time, money, will, and intelligence to do that. That last two items seems to be lacking at FEI.

    I really hate the "zero tollerance" approach to just about anything. It is the prime example of "mindless bureaucracy at work."

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
      I really hate the "zero tollerance" approach to just about anything. It is the prime example of "mindless bureaucracy at work."

      G.
      Exactly. It sounds just wonderful, doesn't it!

      Then you get into how sensitive all these tests are and it becomes ridiculous - you're tying the owner's hands and making them choose between the welfare of their horse and some stupid "policy". The science and testing becomes more sophisticated all the time.

      Bleh.
      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
      -Rudyard Kipling

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      • #23
        Originally posted by equinelaw View Post
        What other purpose would banning provide is not a punishment of some sort? Is it a reward? An incentive or a disincentive? I think its as close to shunning as one would get unless you had some belief system that actually did shun people. Suspended is told to stay away for some period of time. I guess shunning would tell you to stay away from him, but that's a pretty useless point to make.

        If you mean he was given a punishment and not all agreed, then its was still mean to be a punishment. It just does not have much force if he can still play. Its a game. Its all a game. Some people make money at it and take it very seriously, but its a game. They said he broke the rules. I do not know if he did or did not, but why obey rules at all if there is no penalty for breaking them? Because of ethics or morals of some sort. So. . is it ethical?

        Is there some reason people are defending unsanctioned events instead of addressing the OP? Was there any way her post could be more clear?

        He's being punished. He's not able to compete in events the "count" for anything.
        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Ride2Dreams View Post
          So, he wants to compete? Who cares if he puts on an unsanctioned event... In a way it's a schooling event for the levels. Good for him, I think there is nothing wrong with it at all, not ethically or morally.
          I have to agree with this statement.

          And doping can occur without the riders knowledge or consent. There are people who will sabotage another rider remember.

          While i am not familiar with this case one bit(a link would be helpful) I see nothing wrong with hosting "schooling" shows to continue on - the ban will not last forever you know.

          While performance enhancing drugs are not ethical honing ones craft is.
          "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

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          • #25
            Testing is way too sensitive and governing bodies too unforgiving and unyielding - there is no leeway even for prescribed drugs or accidental 'doping'. Accidental? yep, it happens: the poor man in BC a few years ago that got a positive for theobromine because a groom didn't wash after eating a chocolate bar then handled the bits. What about the man some time ago with the positive for the active ingredients in jimson weed - he never fed it but had CUT it then continued on mowing hay with the same implement. Dozens of high TCO2 tests tossed after appeals when controlled, daily testing proved some horses CAN be naturally high in TCO2, due to diet or physiology. Now the fools are working on corticosteroids and trying to figure out a baseline of allowable amounts - they want zero tolerance.

            I am not sure what should be done with the sheik, don't know enough about that case, but quitting everything until the suspension is up doesn't work - he loses form and so do the horses. Competing for points/money can be stopped but competing for nothing cannot, nor should not be stopped. No governing body can stop or should stop someone from training at home during the suspension, nor can it stop impromtu competitions for nothing, nor can it stop schooling be the schooling an unsanctioned competition or just a gathering of like minded people. Young horses cannot be trained to behave in groups either if there is no group to 'compete' against.

            just my two cents worth
            Founder of the Dyslexic Clique. Dyslexics of the world - UNTIE!!

            Member: Incredible Invisbles

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            • #26
              And how many people that the ASHA/USEF has "banned" still do quit a bit of showing on local unrated circuits, or host schooling shows?

              How is this an Ethics question? Do you know that he wouldn't be hosting/organizing this same event even if he wasn't currently suspended?

              I would think that anybody who wants to organize a schooling event should be commended for helping the sport. It is always a thankless task that goes unappreciated by most competitors.
              ~ Kimberlee
              www.SpunkyDiva.com

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              • Original Poster

                #27
                Originally posted by greysandbays View Post
                It's not "defending unsanctioned events" -- it's addressing reality. Sanctioning bodies do not have any right to brandish the club of their regulations/disciplinary decrees over unaffiliated entities. Neither do offended individuals.

                OP just seems to be looking for an excuse to be offended because some Sheik doesn't doesn't care what she thinks about his morals or ethics.
                I never stated I was offended or not, ( I already know what I think) Nowhere in my OP did I state my own opinion.

                I posed a question. I was actually just curious about other peoples opinions, silly me.
                Originally posted by ExJumper
                Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                  The way I read the story is that medications were used on a sick horse, the meds contained "banned substances," he 'fessed up to the use, his wife recused herself, and he got a "zero tollerance" penalty. Given that "zero tollerance" means zero thought, zero discretion, and zero management decision making (all, of course, perpetrated by "zeros") then what you've got is what lawyers call a crime that's "malum prohibitum" ("bad because it's forbidden," like parking for two hours in a one hour zone). This is opposed to crimes like rape, murder, assault, etc. that are "malum in se" ("bad in themselves").

                  So maybe there really is no ethical or moral lapse on the defendant's part, but rather the moral and ethical lapse lies with the FEI? And if that is the case then ditching a morally and ethically corrupt system would be a Good Thing?

                  G.
                  Well said.
                  www.laurienberenson.com

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by rainechyldes View Post
                    Agreed, however they are sanctioned by some body, either FEI or the national body of the country in which they are held. This one wasn't sanctioned by any overseeing body.
                    So what? The guy got caught doping, he's paying the price, and he's putting on his own show so he can ride. Doesn't matter who his spouse is, or what office she holds. Why do you have a problem with this?

                    Sounds to me like you'd rather he had all his horses locked up and not be able to ride during the suspension period.
                    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                    A life lived by example, done too soon.
                    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

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                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by ESG View Post
                      So what? The guy got caught doping, he's paying the price, and he's putting on his own show so he can ride. Doesn't matter who his spouse is, or what office she holds. Why do you have a problem with this?

                      Sounds to me like you'd rather he had all his horses locked up and not be able to ride during the suspension period.
                      No as I said, I know what I think, but I am interested in other peoples opinions, simply because I'm not always 'right' in my way of thinking, is all. I am usually wrong, more then I'm right some weeks
                      Originally posted by ExJumper
                      Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.

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