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Natural Horsemanship Experiences

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  • #41
    Linda-centred?

    Originally posted by TBLvr View Post
    I often wonder if Pat Parelli is really behind the cheesy/overbearing marketing machine called Parelli Natural Horsemanship, or feels trapped and secretly longs for the days of touring the country and sleeping in the back of his truck.
    I think it's possible that Linda is behind most of it. While I like the new L2 kit, I'd rather see more of Pat than Linda. Has anyone else noticed how "Linda centered" the materials have become? I find the clinics and instructors are very different from her, and I think (speculation) it's because the instructor side of things is primarily headed by Pat and a few other higher level people who've been with him for years.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Two Simple
      I will say that recently I had to load 6 horses onto a shipper's trailer. The ONLY one that walked in full speed - no hesitation - with a yes ma'am attitude - was the Parelli trained horse. The others who were all traditionally trained hesitated, smelled, sniffed, danced around, and generally took a minimum 5-10 minutes each to load.
      I would gently suggest that maybe you haven't met many horses? Mine will walk right on with the attitude you seem to desire, and they are not 'Parelli' trained ...ditto 95% or more of the horses I know.

      Loading/trailering issues when they arise can be correctly resolved in many ways-- Parelli is just one.

      Comment


      • #43
        Naturally So wrote, "There is Unnatural Horsemanship. It is the people I see tying horses to tractors and dragging them to teach them to lead, smashing them over the head with glass bottles to cure rearing, riding the buck out of them with spurs to cure bucking, tying with Steel wire behind ears to cure pulling back, using butt-ropes & whips to load in trailers, tying a horse down on the ground for 8 hours to "gentle it", and castrating "at home" by tying them down and using a buckknife, riding them into deep rivers to cure bucking by exhausting themselves. These are things I've seen in my area, I can't imagine what goes on that we don't see. Like I said before, most horsepeople are "natural" even though they don't consider their techniques to fall in that area. But there are many who follow the old "breaking" methods."

        My, you must have a lot of idiots owning horses in your area, these are amazing things you have seen. I have yet, in 40+ years of horse ownership, to see any of the above methods which you have said you've seen, described by anyone as horsemanship of any sort.

        My point is, in my experience, good horsemanship is good horsemanship (and sadly, much too rare these days). "Natural" horsemanship is just a catchy name for marketing purposes. What you think of as 'natural' horsemanship is nothing more than what good horsemen have been doing for thousands of years, with a little marketing glitz and of course some essential 'must have' equipment thrown in.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #44
          Originally posted by Beverley View Post
          I would gently suggest that maybe you haven't met many horses? Mine will walk right on with the attitude you seem to desire, and they are not 'Parelli' trained ...ditto 95% or more of the horses I know.

          Loading/trailering issues when they arise can be correctly resolved in many ways-- Parelli is just one.
          I agree, I'm not saying Parelli or nothing. You should read the new post in Off Course by the person asking for help a listing all of the things they have tried to load. It is a good example of what Parelli, John Lyons, Clinton Andersen, etc. is trying to prevent by educating people on less forceful and safer ways.

          As for seeing abuse to horses, well, most people don't advertise when they do that kind of stuff and most was observed as a child playing over at friends that came from "horse families". I've seen many more responsible horse owners, but the point is that stuff is STILL going on even if we don't see it.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #45
            Originally posted by Beverley View Post
            My, you must have a lot of idiots owning horses in your area, these are amazing things you have seen. I have yet, in 40+ years of horse ownership, to see any of the above methods which you have said you've seen, described by anyone as horsemanship of any sort.

            My point is, in my experience, good horsemanship is good horsemanship (and sadly, much too rare these days). "Natural" horsemanship is just a catchy name for marketing purposes. What you think of as 'natural' horsemanship is nothing more than what good horsemen have been doing for thousands of years, with a little marketing glitz and of course some essential 'must have' equipment thrown in.
            It is horsemanship to the people who learned these techniques inherited from the "common sense" of their parents, neighbours. They know no other way to handle problem horses. They get mad and listen to Uncle Joe's story of "once I saw a guy...". Do you believe that there is no one in your area doing similar things? Maybe you are at a public stable, where I am the nearest stable is a 2 hour drive, no one offers lessons, and there are many, many private farms & acreages with herds of horses standing around the fields.

            And yes, I agree entirely with the NH just being what the "masters" have done alll along in different ways. My point is that natural horsemanship is very similar or the same as what most people are practicing. Respect, not forcing, commiting to using psychology, biology, knowledge, resources to find creative solutions with their horses. Pat is the first to say that he learned from others, especially Ray Hunt. He doesn't claim to have invented NH, but he did coin the term. (probably would have been better not to and just called it program X.)

            The main difference is that the organization is trying to actively reach out to people to change things. Yes and a by product is capitalism, marketing etc. But there are many, many people who make a living from horses and advertise, promote, make deals to further themselves. That is the business side if the industry. Do we get mad when a company advertises horse insurance or fly spray, or sends infomercial DVDs to buy Nelson stock waterers? So it is important not to paint the entire NH idea or programs with a negative light because of a dislike of the promotional side. These programs are what you make out of them or take out of them.

            Comment


            • #46
              Loading/trailering issues when they arise can be correctly resolved in many ways-- Parelli is just one.
              And have you ever noticed at a show or other event how a horse refusing to load draws so many "experts", like bees to honey? Cracks me up - its like they materialize after having waited for a horse to balk at loading. Usually this is followed by the appearance of brooms and crops and lunge whips and water and ropes behind their butts and linked arms behind their butts and..............

              To a horse, getting in a trailer is such a statement of faith. It amazes me that any horse will get in a trailer - especially the second time! How much more unnatural an act can we ask of our horse but to get in an enclosed box that then starts to shake and move and has monsters (trucks, motorcycles etc) screaming by outside? To do so willingly speaks volumes about the horse.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by TBLvr View Post
                And have you ever noticed at a show or other event how a horse refusing to load draws so many "experts", like bees to honey? Cracks me up - its like they materialize after having waited for a horse to balk at loading. Usually this is followed by the appearance of brooms and crops and lunge whips and water and ropes behind their butts and linked arms behind their butts and..............
                Grrrrr... I once had someone decide they were going to "help" me load my still-green OTTB (who was quite understandably reluctant to go on as the last time he had been in that trailer with another horse it had kicked HARD the entire ride) by coming up behind him and - despite my direction to the contrary - hitting him repeatedly with a lunge whip. I was a teenager at the time, and the so-called adults involved thought they knew better than I and literally WOULD NOT listen to me. The horse was, at the time, DEATHLY afraid of whips, and the experience only proved to him that not only were whips just as bad as he had thought, but that trailers were a good deal WORSE than he had been thinking they were. It took YEARS to undo that. YEARS. However, the same horse now happy self-loads and unloads (when asked), and all that without an ounce of any sort of "Natural Horsemanship" other than compassion and practice. (Which are, if you think about it, the most basic priniciples of ANY sort of horsemanship. )

                So here's my question: if you are all so happy with how nice your horseys are now that you have applied several fancy expensive techniques to them, why do you feel the need to make everyone else join your fan club? Are you THAT insecure?! If the results speak for themselves, then LET the results speak for themselves.

                Or is it perhaps that the results do NOT speak for themselves, and thus the practitioners have to tell revival meeting-like stories to try to convince the masses that [insert big-name of choice here] really IS The Way, The Truth, and The Light?
                Proud member of the EDRF

                Comment


                • #48
                  It took YEARS to undo that. YEARS. However, the same horse now happy self-loads and unloads (when asked), and all that without an ounce of any sort of "Natural Horsemanship" other than compassion and practice. (Which are, if you think about it, the most basic priniciples of ANY sort of horsemanship. )
                  True, however compassion and practice - although important, are just a couple of the basic principles of horsemanship. Without the others what should take a short time may very well take years.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by TBLvr View Post
                    True, however compassion and practice - although important, are just a couple of the basic principles of horsemanship. Without the others what should take a short time may very well take years.
                    You are sounding dangerously close here to those adults who were so SURE that they knew my horse better than I and could just get him to hop right onto that trailer... "It shouldn't take more than five minutes to load a horse" is as close to a direct quote from the offending party as I can remember 11 years later.

                    Not that I think you would advocate beating the horse , but trying to define what should and should not take any specific length of time is trying to set a one-size-fits-all prescription, and is the fastest way to regress the training of a horse that I know.
                    Proud member of the EDRF

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Madeline View Post
                      CA must not have a contract with a boot manufacturer.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by gentleBrook* View Post
                        I haven't checked out other NH trainers like CA and others, but they probably have some good ideas.
                        According to a close friend who has seen both Parelli and CA, they are nearly identical in most of their groundwork techniques and concepts. CA is more apt to use more firmness I think and does not give the horse long to react to pressure before getting stronger. I can say that CA's clinic was much less expensive...I think it was $25 for two days and Parelli is more like $100 for two days.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Kementari - I had a very similar experience with my horse. We were at a D hunter show, my "friend" with the trailer decided to stay overnight at the last minute, I came down with the flu. Unbeknownst to me, so had Ted (some sort of respiratory tract infection). We just hung around feeling awful until the friend had decided she was ready to go (she won big on the Saturday, thought it would happen again Sunday, and when it didn't she had a freakout). As we were walking to the step up trailer, I stepped on, and she started smacking Ted with a whip. That was it - he was NEVER going on that trailer again, no way, no how. I was left by this "friend" with very little money, no cell phone, and frantically trying to arrange a very expensive haul (I'd tried to get one to go home on Saturday and had been out of luck).

                          My horse will just walk on a trailer now - slant load, straight load, step up, ramp. But that is because I tried to let him know that subsequent rides would be fine. And so much depends on how you drive the damn thing too. So yes, it did take a few tries. And why shouldn't it have? But I didn't need to use any funky methods. Just patience, and calmness. And believe me, they know when someone is going to go off the deep end.
                          www.specialhorses.org
                          a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            There's a difference between smacking a horse with a whip to try to get them to load, and using a gentle but persistent "tap, tap, tap" as a pressure, with ceasing the tap as a release from pressure when the horse steps forward. Not everyone who approaches a loading situation with a whip is the devil.

                            Though I do suspect that there are many people who interpret the presence of a whip in the equation as meaning for it to be used in an unkind manner, rather than an extension of one's arm.

                            Like I said earlier, I'm just glad there is a NH movement alive and well today, to offer an option in a more widespread way than in years past. Again, not that the methods haven't been around since before creation, but that they are heard of by more people now than before.
                            "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                            Spay and neuter. Please.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              As we were walking to the step up trailer, I stepped on, and she started smacking Ted with a whip. That was it - he was NEVER going on that trailer again, no way, no how. I was left by this "friend" with very little money, no cell phone, and frantically trying to arrange a very expensive haul (I'd tried to get one to go home on Saturday and had been out of luck).
                              Now that sucks! I assume you guys were at the same barn? Did she have anything to say when you saw her again, like "Sorry I whipped your horse and left you at the show?"

                              And believe me, they know when someone is going to go off the deep end.
                              I'm sure they know this before that "someone" knows it.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Beverley View Post
                                I would gently suggest that maybe you haven't met many horses? Mine will walk right on with the attitude you seem to desire, and they are not 'Parelli' trained ...ditto 95% or more of the horses I know.
                                I don't think s/he said "Of all the horses I've ever met". It was "Of the six horses the other day..." Academic perhaps, but there is a difference.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by TBLvr View Post
                                  Now that sucks! I assume you guys were at the same barn? Did she have anything to say when you saw her again, like "Sorry I whipped your horse and left you at the show?"



                                  I'm sure they know this before that "someone" knows it.
                                  This woman was so nutso, she came up to me a few days later and was furious that I had not thanked her for getting me to the show. Naturally, we never went with her again (she invited me, by the way, and yes, we were boarders at the same place and had taken lessons together).

                                  And I was so supset - it all happened so fast, I never saw it coming, and your horse should be able to trust you that you keep them away from situations like this. But then, I think horses have a better instinct for when someone is going to explode than many of us do.
                                  www.specialhorses.org
                                  a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Kementari View Post
                                    So here's my question: if you are all so happy with how nice your horseys are now that you have applied several fancy expensive techniques to them, why do you feel the need to make everyone else join your fan club? Are you THAT insecure?!

                                    Or is it perhaps that the results do NOT speak for themselves, and thus the practitioners have to tell revival meeting-like stories to try to convince the masses that [insert big-name of choice here] really IS The Way, The Truth, and The Light?
                                    Gee, this topic seems to make you really angry. I'm not sure why it would, since your anecdote illustrates the point as well as the stories of any NH clinician. Using the horse's psychology = good. Forcing the horse = bad. Simple. Yes, PP and CA are making a lot of money on this very simple idea, but so what? That doesn't mean their horsemanship is bad.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      But then, I think horses have a better instinct for when someone is going to explode than many of us do.
                                      They really do - its part of their instinct for survival. I put it this way to a student recently: "Imagine you are going to a party, and you're told that that one of the people there was going to kill you. You don't who that person is. Don't you think you'd be studying the folks at that party real carefully?"

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        And as far as the prosyletizing - we are all on the same page that the Parelli, Lyons etc methods are, for the most part, extensions of classical, good sense horsemanship. Therefore, there is more than one path to true elightenment, as it were. And one of the things I have noticed about people who define themselves as "doing Parelli" or "doing Lyons" is that if you are not part of the group, you will go to Horsemanship Hell." I am not saying this isn't true of many fanatics (I use the term fanatics meaning fan of) for many disciplines.
                                        www.specialhorses.org
                                        a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          I agree 100% that there is more than one road one can take on the way to Horsey Heaven, and the annoyance of those who may claim otherwise.

                                          But, to me at least, the term "classical" not only ecompasses the more enlightened methods used in the past, but also the more unelightened. There have always been fine horsemen throughout history who reached the horse on a level that the horse understands, and wins the animals respect and cooperation.

                                          But for much of history most humans approached the horse in typical human fashion, using tools, force and fear to achieve their goals. The book "The Revolution in Horsemanship" does a pretty good job of explaining why things are changing (or rather why the classical means of tools, force and fear are disappearing). Mainly its because for the first time in history the horse isn't an essential tool for work, war or transportation, but a recreational animal. There are more women involved today - and for the most part women are less likely to resort to force than are men. And society in general is less tolerant of anybody inflicting pain/stress on an animal.

                                          One other interesting thing the book points out is the change in your typical Western art. You can still buy prints and statues of the cowboys riding a crazed, terrified bucking bronc, but now you're just as likely to see a cowboy riding a relaxed horse, maybe bridless and doing classical dressage moves.

                                          Interesting stuff, and good news for the ponies.

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