Natural Horsemanship Experiences

[diamondsgal]

Naturallyso, thanks for starting this thread!

I've been involved with Pat's program for over 2 years now and it's been a really positive experience! I also have several friends who follow his program who have had positive experiences. I am still fairly new to horses, done many things and kept a hand in horses, just not on a consistent basis. I have been riding off and on since middle school, worked in a tack shop, was a camp counselor at a local barn one summer, cleaned stalls for a private dressage trainer, and volunteer with several Therapuetic Riding programs. Anyhoo, for me personally, the Parelli program has helped me have a deeper understanding of both horse and human psychology.

[katarine]

Back when 'NH' was just really hitting a lick I rode in a Ray Hunt clinic. I was working so hard at being super kind to horses, really rethinking the whole deal- and this after being heavy into horses for 20+ years...but there was a horse there who's way of expressing frustration was to double-barrelled kick out behind him, and run backwards. Crazy. He came toward us and my 'natural' reaction was to pick the ends of my 8' reins up and lay them over my shoulder. Ray saw that, and barked out "STRIPE HIM! GET AFTER HIM!". So I did.

Made my day, lol, and eased my mind. I

t's not rocket science. There's a time for patience and exquisite timing, and there's a place for weighted ends on 8' reins, applied with vigor.

[Bank of Dad]

Well, my unbroke horse was ridden today!

If anyone has read my previous posts, I bought an untouched, unbroke 4 yr old Arab 4 months ago. I have worked with him 90 out of the past 120 days, even when it was 100 degrees, and we worked in the shade. I have ridden all my life and previously trained his sister 20 years ago, when you didn't call it NH. I have learned a lot since then:

Thanks to John Lyons for teaching me how to get a halter, yield to pressure, go forward, deal with headshyness, bridle, and saddle him. Just the halter alone took 3 entire days of approach and retreat. His method of bridle work and getting up on him worked just like he says.

Thanks to Clinton Anderson for teaching me how to lunge him, and to Pat P also for teaching passing by as a prelude for trailer loading. Clint's and an old old Pat P book gave excellent advice on trailer loading.

Thanks to Pat P for the backing tips, which when done first, made his first leading very easy.

Thanks to Mike Kevil whose pictures and advice on ground driving were very helpful.

Finally, thanks to the COTH dressage board, and the old dressage books I read, which used NH ideas before they were called NH.

Four months later, I have a horse who can get caught, stands for the farrier and vet, self-loads into my trailer, clips, lowers his head on asking, stands to be mounted, is flexible, understands that we are learning, getting confident and having fun.

I have learned to have much patience. He has learned to tolerate my confusion at times. He takes visible steps of learning every day. JL's riding DVD and CA's riding DVD's will continue to be the basis of his introduction to the saddle until we move on to more sophisticated stuff, or just plain trail riding.

Now, if the NH folks would just come up with a way to stop wood chewing!!!!!

[Beverley]

Pardon a cynical question, but...

What is 'unnatural' horsemanship? I'm with county and Geek and others who have noted that good horsemanship is nothing new, in fact as noted, the basics laid down by Xenophon a couple of thousand years ago are still relevant.

An awful lot of good trainers have done an awful lot of good things with horses, they just aren't household names. If Parelli or Down Under or Monte Roberts or John Lyons work for you and your horse (just a general 'you', mind you), that's great! The only potential down side I can see to the 'packaged programs' is that horses are individuals and you can't count on them to have read the book- if Parelli has a specific answer for a specific issue your horse has, and it isn't working for your horse, have the sense to try something else!

Like everybody else, all of these household names have had their fair share of failures, you just don't hear much about them...

[SpotsNChrome]

I agree totally Monstrpony. That is so cool to hear success stories of an otheriwse situation that would end tragically for the horse and maybe a person.

I have a real problem when encouraged to stop showing and ditch everything to go straight NH. Yes, my mare is tough, but we agree on quite a few things. I was complimented that this NH instructor wanted me to baptize solely into their camp, but I have a business to support, and these things have to fit into my life NOW, going along with what I already know. After 30 years, how would anyone throw away all they have learned from other really good horsemen ( not the video making, book writing kind), and go there?

It is nice to see that these techniques have been broken down so the average dummy can follow it and not get hurt, but the one poster is right, everyone claims to have the secret, and I have had the "if your not on board your nothing" preached, etc.too.

What I like to hear is the Monstrpony story. No big name to impress, no one to glamour, just good horsemanship. I respect that.

[Ridge Runner]

I'm another Clinton Anderson fan. He is, IMO, the most down to earth of the NH clinicians that you can see and by far the funniest. His methods are very down to earth, easy, and effective and I have gotten much more practical applications from him than anyone else to help me with my range bred horses. He does not pussy foot around the horses either trying not to scare them and if one needs a good whack, it gets it. I love his upbeat attitude, get the job done mentalilty, and one of his mottos "Heart Attacks are Free" has become my new motto in getting my 2 and 3 year olds going this fall. My only beef with his methods is that they are much more geared to a western horse but it's not too hard to adapt his methods to a horse destined for english riding either.

He is the first person to admit that he did not "invent" any of the methods either and that he learned most of what he teaches from other people. What he does do very well is put it together in a way that it's easy to understand and he's a very effective communicator. He's also one of the few of big trainers that will actually take horses on for training...I think he's 900 a month and I would not hesitate to send a horse to him if I had the money. Heck...there is a crapload of folks out there for not much less than $900 that are no where near his level or competence.

[Robyn]

While I'm not a NH person, I have seen both PP and CA. My only problem with CA was his trailer loading "solution." Which was to lunge the horse at the rear of the trailer and make going in the easy choice. He lunged the horse up and over the ramp repetedly, without any leg protection because "horses lived for thousands of years with no leg protection." Sure. But not lunging up and over the ramp of a trailer. Kind of soured me to the rest of what he had to offer. That said, my farrier is a big CA devotee, as is one of my friends. I just don't get the whole wiggle the line have my horse go backwards thing, or crouching down to "invite" the horse into my space...but that's just me.

I do think you can learn something from everybody, but it's the DEVOTION that I find rather strange...!
Robin

[Ridge Runner]

At the CA clinic I attended the horse had front leg protection for the loading demo...actually all of the demo horses wore protective boots in front. Now he did not have hind protection on the horse but in the grand scheme of things, I find loading a horse without leg protection a fairly minor criticism of a clinician. Honestly, I can't think of one of these guys I've seen who did a trailer loading demo with a horse wrapped up.

[findeight]

I first took riding lessons out in Los Angeles in...about 1960. I think they were $20 for 8 weekly lessons or something...Girl Scout merit badge. I was about 11.
Just a western riding stable with a ring. Yet we started learning from the ground, learning to watch their body language and how to use our own. How to think like a prey animal to anticipate what they might do. We watched demonstrations on when you could get a horse to do and heard talk of getting inside their heads. Some of the teachers were retired movie stuntmen who could get a horse to do absolutely anything and convince them they wanted to without any force.
We also did alot of riding and learned to do that as well...just the basics of course for a young kid riding once a week.

Over the next years until I bought my first horse, I kept riding weekly. Some lessons and alot of trail riding- I got to where I was allowed to get the rent horses out and put them away and continually heard that same mantra-think like they do, get inside their heads. I did learn how and when to discipline as well, to do it just like another horse would, hard and quick to protect my space or correct misbehavior.

All this for next to nothing financially from not so fancy backyard horsemen.
Over the years I just kept my eyes and ears open and learned even more about what works and what doesn't and why. Still learning. Hasn't cost anything.

If the NH movement introduces this kind of thinking that's great...most of these people are pretty good at working with problems. BUT most of them fall short of a permanent fix when the owner takes it home without changing their own behavior. The best ones point that out "I'll fix it today but it won't work long term if you keep on like you are now".

Then you have the marketing aspect I hate plus the fact I firmly believe you cannot train a horse out of a book.
I see alot of this as trying to replace just spending TIME watching horses and learning from that...no need to buy a video or read a book just WATCH and spend time with that horse under supervision of a GOOD instructor, mentor or horse person.

What I find disturbing is the large number of middle aged ladies that I see acting like rock groupies at some of the clinics and preaching like cult members to all they see. That is what I see when I am in the barns before one of their clinics.
Maybe that is what we are reacting to because I know I am not the only one to see this.
Or notice alot of these gals are scared to ride these horses and some of those programs don't address that very well, or at all.

I know I have had at least 3 ladies come up to me and remark on my "alpha" mare...what's up with that??? All diva mares are not alpha, just bitchy...Seems to be the new hot button word to excuse bad behavior or attitude or 95% of all mares are suddenly alphas which used to be less common then non alphas???
Some 14 year old Parelli devotee just came up with that one again referring to my sensitive to girth TB who gets the crap beat out of her by half the Small Pony mares she tries to get along with when turned out-some alpha. Child did offer to retrain her for me because she had completed level whatever.......even though she has never owned a horse or actually get on and ride more then once a week.

I know, that one's a kid but...why do those programs bring that out in beginners? Because they preach it as the ONLY way and some students learn to believe that and to walk right up and tell others they are wrong. Whatever possesed the adult ladies to come up to a total stranger on a mare pinning her ears because another horse was too close and launch into a dissertation on alpha mares???
Funny, they all mentioned Parelli.
Nobody else has ever said anything to me at all, presumably at least somebody followed other NH types.

I think I jump on Parelli because of some of the devotees I have encoutered, not any great flaw in the program.

That and the marketing of a hog stick available in any rural feed store for under 10 bucks and a novice riding around on a greenie in a halter

[inca]

Parelli methods and being started under saddle by a former Parelli-certified colt started made a world of difference in my very difficult/borderline-dangerous mare. But, it was a FOUNDATION and she is now doing what I intended for her to do when I bred her, which is dressage. For me, the Parelli stuff was a means to and end, not the end itself.

One of the ladies who helped me and my mare is a non-certified instructor and will barely speak to me now because I am no longer doing Parelli with my mare. I truly like this person and have the utmost respect for her as a horsewoman. It's just too bad that her world is so black and white that those of us that choose to go on and pursue other disciplines are somehow mistreating our horses and not doing the right thing. That attitude saddens me.

Luckily, the guy who started my horse is NOT like that. He always said the methods he used to start my mare were to give her a solid foundation (which it did) so she could go on to her dressage career. He is happy for me that the mare has turned out to be a wonderful dressage horse. And I am forever grateful to him for turning my horse into a SAFE and fun horse to train! I love working with her and training her and that certainly was not the case in her younger days.

I think the NH methods can be VERY helpful but some people go way overboard!

[monstrpony]

I first took riding lessons out in Los Angeles in...about 1960. I think they were $20 for 8 weekly lessons or something...Girl Scout merit badge. I was about 11.
Just a western riding stable with a ring. Yet we started learning from the ground, learning to watch their body language and how to use our own. How to think like a prey animal to anticipate what they might do. We watched demonstrations on when you could get a horse to do and heard talk of getting inside their heads. Some of the teachers were retired movie stuntmen who could get a horse to do absolutely anything and convince them they wanted to without any force.
We also did alot of riding and learned to do that as well...just the basics of course for a young kid riding once a week.

This is the stuff that was missing from all of the education I got at the same time, same age, and later. If it was ever mentioned, I missed it. And I really don't think it ever was--it was always just get on and ride. Even as an adult, I never had an instructor or clinician ask how I handled or worked my horses from the ground. Or address the way a horse percieves a human, or the concept of "herd" leadership. It's a whole big chunk of really important stuff that just never got mentioned.

While my background isn't all that deep, I think it's typical of a large number of horsepeople, and it makes me happy that there IS a "natural horsemanship" movement today, in spite of its flaws, that is making this kind of work more mainstream. The horsemanship behind it is as old as horses themselves, none of these johnny-come-lately pretty boys "invented" it. But it's unfortunate that the masters were always the strong, silent types and the word never got out to so very many of us .

(in fact, its embarassing that I was raised right next door to some of these now-older masters in CA and still managed to miss the boat; part of the fun, to me, in going back to visit this kind of horsemanship in its original form is to honor those guys I saw at local shows, who are now well respected in the Californio/Vaquero tradition).

[naturallyso]

Thanks for that!

I

Then you have the marketing aspect I hate plus the fact I firmly believe you cannot train a horse out of a book.
I see alot of this as trying to replace just spending TIME watching horses and learning from that...no need to buy a video or read a book just WATCH and spend time with that horse under supervision of a GOOD instructor, mentor or horse person.

What I find disturbing is the large number of middle aged ladies that I see acting like rock groupies at some of the clinics and preaching like cult members to all they see. That is what I see when I am in the barns before one of their clinics.
Maybe that is what we are reacting to because I know I am not the only one to see this.
Or notice alot of these gals are scared to ride these horses and some of those programs don't address that very well, or at all.

I think I jump on Parelli because of some of the devotees I have encoutered, not any great flaw in the program.

That and the marketing of a hog stick available in any rural feed store for under 10 bucks and a novice riding around on a greenie in a halter

I agree nothing replaces hands-on, one-on-one instruction, especially for beginners. But there are many, many people who don't have access to knowledgable horsepeople, trailers, arenas, trainers, etc. The DVD and books materials are invaluable to people who are isolated and stuck with their horses. All theories of horsemanship have published books, even in ancient times, so this approach is used by more than just NH trainers.

As for the scared middle aged ladies, well, they might not even have horses anymore if they hadn't found NH or Parelli. There is an entire published book in L2 of Parelli that deals specifically with fear with horses and strategies to deal with it. This program does recognize the fear and encourage people to be OK with that. It is OK not to ride if you are scared and these ladies have found a place they can be accepted for that. This is not a result of the program, this is the reality of people with horses. Many either get out of horses or hide their fear until they are too scared to ride anymore. It is not neccessarily a bad thing, they are still learning, mentally preparing while not destroying their confidence. Maybe they are happy with that. Not everyone's goals are the same, success is not measured the same. But there are many. many people like me that ride, aren't scared of their horses, have respectful horses and used NH to enhance our horsemanship.

I do agree with you that there are obtuse minded Parelli or NH preachers out there, but they probably would be like that with any trainer they paired up with and it is their personal opinion being expressed, not the program's. The marketing is rather glitzy, and the tools pricey, but you can buy from cheaper tack sources if you look around, or make your own.

The program also clearly discourages anyone in the first 3 levels from riding anything other than a well broke horse - so this is a result of the people making poor horse choices, not the NH programs.

It seems the program isn't at fault as much as the poor usage of the program by individuals. Thanks for your honest feedback, I agree with many of your concerns.

[naturallyso]

What is 'unnatural' horsemanship? I'm with county and Geek and others who have noted that good horsemanship is nothing new, in fact as noted, the basics laid down by Xenophon a couple of thousand years ago are still relevant.

There is a new book called "The Revolution in Horsemanship" by Rick Lamb and Robert M. Miller, DVM that discusses a high level change in the industry the past 25 years in terms of training, competition, medically etc. It may offer an objective description to help understand the term.

IMO, Natural Horsemanship is just a commitment to use training methods that don't force the horse, to accept responsibility that we are partially causing horses behaviour, and to use psychology and understanding of the horse's mind, body and biology to effect change instead of harsher bits and contraptions. (I.E. if you are physically unfit and ride like lead weight a different bit will not make your horse collect, you accept the fact that you need to move your body differently, get in shape and take responsibility for your part in the problem.

There is Unnatural Horsemanship. It is the people I see tying horses to tractors and dragging them to teach them to lead, smashing them over the head with glass bottles to cure rearing, riding the buck out of them with spurs to cure bucking, tying with Steel wire behind ears to cure pulling back, using butt-ropes & whips to load in trailers, tying a horse down on the ground for 8 hours to "gentle it", and castrating "at home" by tying them down and using a buckknife, riding them into deep rivers to cure bucking by exhausting themselves. These are things I've seen in my area, I can't imagine what goes on that we don't see. Like I said before, most horsepeople are "natural" even though they don't consider their techniques to fall in that area. But there are many who follow the old "breaking" methods.

[naturallyso]

Phase 4

Back when 'NH' was just really hitting a lick I rode in a Ray Hunt clinic. I was working so hard at being super kind to horses, really rethinking the whole deal- and this after being heavy into horses for 20+ years...but there was a horse there who's way of expressing frustration was to double-barrelled kick out behind him, and run backwards. Crazy. He came toward us and my 'natural' reaction was to pick the ends of my 8' reins up and lay them over my shoulder. Ray saw that, and barked out "STRIPE HIM! GET AFTER HIM!". So I did.

Made my day, lol, and eased my mind. I

t's not rocket science. There's a time for patience and exquisite timing, and there's a place for weighted ends on 8' reins, applied with vigor.

I agree with you. In Parelli it is called Phase 4, and in some cases: save your life, do whatever it takes. I not sure why people don't see that side of it, being firm. If you watch a clinic the instructor doesn't avoid a physical cue, but does advocate 3 firmer phases to give the horse a chance to do it before you need the extreme. The goal is to need less and less at the horse/rider team progresses.

[TBLvr]

I often wonder if Pat Parelli is really behind the cheesy/overbearing marketing machine called Parelli Natural Horsemanship, or feels trapped and secretly longs for the days of touring the country and sleeping in the back of his truck. Or if he's laughing all the way to the bank.

Naturallyso makes some very correct statements in her last post regarding what PNH does and does not teach. Yes, its unfortunate that many get "stuck" way in the beginning but still feel they are Gods Gift To the Equine World and Pat and Linda are the center of the universe, but I can't fault them too much for having a healthy passion for something. Could be worse.

There have been a few other statements made that I also feel need correcting.

First is that PNH is not about riding, but playing on the ground with your horse. Actually it is very much about riding, even in the beginning levels. I went to the CO ranch for a weeklong clinic and boy, did we ride! Every day, for hours. If somebody spends all their time on the ground, its their choice, not PNH.

Secondly, Pat always gives credit to his mentors and teachers and consistently points out that he did NOT invent any of it. I think one of his qoutes is "Its so old, its new"

Thirdly, PNH is not about a finished dressage horse or reiner or jumper. Its about a very solid foundation to support any of these disciplines.

I don't consider myself a Parelli-person, but still feel there are some things being said or attributed to him that are wrong. All marketing annoyances aside, he knows horses. I have attended his clinics, but also others. Personally, I like Chris Cox and Buck Branamen. But they all share many of the same concepts and ideas, and they are all as old as the horse himself.

Ao, there's my 2 cents.

[Rachel L]

As a junior, I rode and showed hunters and had the most traditional horse-upbringing you could imagine. I owned and showed many horses and considered myself an accomplished amateur hunter rider. When I took up horses again as an adult and moved to a boarding barn, a friend of mine and I used to make mean jokes about the other people at the barn who "did" parelli. Then I bought a horse who seemed calm, but was explosive and spooky enough to promptly buck me off about three times in the first couple of months. When she broke my arm and some fingers and cracked my husband's rib, I realized she was beyond my skills and I needed to find a better way to communicate with her. A huge skeptic, I started parelli lessons with an instructor at my barn, because that was what was available at that barn and I didn't have a trailer. I promised myself as soon as I encountered a problem parelli could not fix, or as soon as I became bored with it, I would quit. Five years later, I am still at it and the explosive, spooky mare has now done parades, trail rides, the beach, lots of things I would never have imagined when I first realized how scary she could be. Now I can take her anywhere. I really think that parelli saved me from either getting seriously injured by this mare, or from selling her and getting out of horses altogether.

My mare does first level dressage, cross country jumps, trail trials, team penning, lots of things. If you saw me out riding, you would never know I am a die-hard parelli believer, unless you happened to catch me on a day when I was riding in my parelli hackamore. I think even the most vehement parelli-hater on this board would respect my horsemanship and my horse's behavior, and would find me a pleasant riding or dinner companion. I respect good horsemanship in any form or any discipline; if you and your horse are having fun and are safe using any other training method, I am happy for you and agree with you that you do not need parelli. I find the parelli proselytizers and outspoken unsolicited parelli advice givers as annoying as the parelli-haters find them. Among the parelli foamers-at-the-mouth and cultists, there are good people doing cool things with horses using parelli. Just wanted you to know.

Rachel

[naturallyso]

On Trailer Loading

While I'm not a NH person, I have seen both PP and CA. My only problem with CA was his trailer loading "solution." Which was to lunge the horse at the rear of the trailer and make going in the easy choice. He lunged the horse up and over the ramp repetedly, without any leg protection because "horses lived for thousands of years with no leg protection." Sure. But not lunging up and over the ramp of a trailer. Kind of soured me to the rest of what he had to offer. That said, my farrier is a big CA devotee, as is one of my friends. I just don't get the whole wiggle the line have my horse go backwards thing, or crouching down to "invite" the horse into my space...but that's just me.

I've never ever heard any NH program advocate NOT using protective gear, that was just crazy and too bad you had such a bad introduction.

To explain the trailer loading, the term lunging is inaccurate. In the Parelli program you use techniques called games to develop a subtle language with your horse to move it backwards, sideways, forwards and around. You combine these tasks then and apply them to real life situations, like loading. Using the circling or squeeze game to load allows the horse to approach and retreat from the trailer. The worst thing to do is load a scared horse and then immediately slam the trailer door shut! You allow the horse to go in and it learns it isn't trapped and can retreat. As it learns not to be afraid, trailering problems disappear. Plus you are not in the trailer if they panic which increases your safety.

You teach the horse to back by wiggling the rope and that comes in handy now as standing outside the trailer, you wiggle the rope and the horse knows this means back up and now they are backing out of the trailer with a rope wiggle while you are still outside. You only need to be crushed inside a trailer with a panicking horse once to see the value of this style of loading.

The other day I chuckwagon went past when I was leading my horse and he freaked, I used this technique to send him out to the end of the rope where I was safe and then had him do some squeezes and turns to get his attention on me and not the rattling contraption going by. In the past I would have clutched below his halter with a hand on his shoulder trying to wrestle and keep out of under his feet.

The crouching down is part of a greater technique. Basically it is about having a clear body language that allows the horse to differentiate between when you are asking it to move and when you are asking it to stop. If you crouch and approach the heels, you are disengaging the hind end and encouraging the horse to turn, face you and wait for futher instructions.

The techniques really do look bizarre until you hear the theory and see them done properly, for example, at a Level 1 clinic. There are a lot of poor NH people out there, but there are poor horsepeople in every discipline, everyone should be wary of them. Good for you for spotting one.

[Madeline]

I've never ever heard any NH program advocate NOT using protective gear, that was just crazy and too bad you had such a bad introduction.

CA must not have a contract with a boot manufacturer.

[gentleBrook*]

nh experiences

Hi everyone, I'm the L2 friend that Naturally-So went riding with that day, so yeah, um, I'd like to take credit for this thread... jk.

I know of lots of people whose horses were headed for a dog food can before they found the Parelli Program, including many of Pat's instructors (and the one I took my L1 clinic from). I haven't personally rescued a horse from the edge of the grave, but with what I have learned, I'd like to think I could have done a lot more with some of the horses I grew up around.

I had a similar riding background to Naturally-So. Mainly informal training, some clinics, but mostly many hours around horses. I used to think I knew allabout horses, and now I know that I don't know enough! Anyone who says they're done learning doesn't realize what an idiot it makes them sound like.

My horse was started by a Parelli colt starter at 3, and I started riding him at 5. For the first year I carried on with my way of doing things and had nothing but problems. Trail riding... are you nuts? Trot around the arena without fighting, you're kidding right? I ignored the Parelli stuff and thought it was just a fad. Yep, I got bucked off a few times and really didn't enjoy riding him. Then I took a level one clinic and it all changed.

I had the best fun I've ever had on a horse, and my eyes were opened to the endless possibilities of what I could do with my horse. I came away with so many new ideas and tools to help me creatively solve my own problems. It was so much more than a "prescription" or set of techniques, which is what most Parelli-Haters think it is. We solved those basic issues and moved on to other things.

My horse is 9 now and I'm only able to ride him in the summers 2-3 times per week. Extreme weather here means he goes home to BC to pasture every winter. This year we are dealing with a lameness issue so our progress has stalled (gentle riding only allowed), but I am starting bareback and bridleless arena work at a canter, which I never ever thought was something I'd have a hope of doing.

When I go to a Parelli event, I think it's revealing that I see so many nice horses that I really like. I think to myself "I like that horse, hey that horse is nice, good looking horse." But what I think is really going on is not so much that I like the horses themselves, but the way the people and their horses are with each other. That doesn't happen at any other kind of event. Ever! From rodeo events to horse shows to jumping competitions. And you see just about every type of horse at a Parelli event.

I haven't checked out other NH trainers like CA and others, but they probably have some good ideas. I am not religiously following Parelli... I do lots of things with my horse. But the program has given me more confidence that I can overcome problems by using creativity rather than just doing the first thing that comes to the mind of someone watching me (conventional wisdom around here usually involves beating the horse up or stringing him up.) It's given me more of a balance between firmness and gentleness, and more patience with my horse and myself. That has translated in more peace in our relationship than I've ever had with any other horse.

[gentleBrook*]

Another experience I'd like to share, which illustrates what's out there and what the average person is doing.

I board with friends of the family. One day the young girl (15) came to me and asked me if I knew any ways to get a horse to trailer load. I told her there probably weren't any specific methods, but it might help to try to figure out why he wouldn't go in. She told me "My horse is scared of the trailer. My trainer said to point him toward the trailer and whip him til he goes in." My eyebrows went up. I guess she was uncomfortable this answer, too.

I suggested 1) you might get hurt if you try that and 2) it might work the first few times. We took her horse near the trailer and brushed him, fiddled around for a while, didn't try to load him. Did the same thing the next day, then the third day he loaded without much of a problem and has been doing so ever since. BTW this girl (2yrs older now) has spent most of her childhood around horses, and is winning jumping competitions everywhere on her warmblood. So she is not what's generally considered a beginner.

How many people out there are being told stuff like this? How many young children are being shown methods like this? How many people and horses are being hurt every day? Lots. I see it all the time. I'm sure everyone does. It's everywhere. It's at every barn I've ever gone to and really hard to ignore. You actually do see people whipping their horses til they go in. That trainer is telling all her students crap like this, and they are out there doing it. They will show it to their children/spouses/friends in the future, and more abuse will ensue.

At the other end, you get people whose horses are totally out of control. Running over them. Biting them. Raring, charging, bucking, being generally dangerous. Horses I wouldn't come near without my stick there making my arm longer... to save my life. These people really need NH too.

(of course, there are people using common sense, not calling it NH, and think PP is a snakeoil salesman. I am not going to go up to someone like that and start preaching the NH gospel. They and their horses are doing just fine. No horse abuse or danger. Ok with me.)

People who think PP or CA's programs are about nothing but petting the horse are as wrong as the ones who think it's all about swinging a "kohlrabi stick" at a horse who's scared. It's neither. One of the biggest things I've become better on is when to be firm and when to be nice. A horse might act like a prey animal or he might play dominance games. My task is to figure out which one it is, but either way he's just acting out what nature set him up to do. I still get it wrong sometimes but I've come a long way and wouldn't have progressed without the program. I've also learned the difference between "firmness" and "lashing out" when the dominance games start. My emotional reactions are on an even keel more than ever before.

Sorry for the long post but it's a topic near and dear. I'm really keen to hear other peoples' experiences and observations. I haven't checked out other threads but they seem to be mostly about Pat and Linda dolls and trainwrecks. Not really useful or interesting dialogue.