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TWH Celebration Classes Postponed!

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  • #61
    I have a question?

    Is this sport under USEF? Is there anything that they can do to help the USDA in this endevor?

    From the other post, I could see that the flat shod horses moved really nicely. The big lick horses, it doesn't take an horse person to see that this is painful for them.

    Roost, you are so defensive, you don't even seem to care about the animal, all you seem to want to do is defend the sport, and your right to do it.

    As far as I am concerned the welfare and comfort for the animal is paramount. Doing the big lick stuff that I have seen posted her (I have not been to an actual show) constitutes abuse in my book. There is no way the horses are comfortable doing that. Common sense tells me that.

    Comment


    • #62
      DISCLAIMER: I am in every way opposed to soring. I am not a TWH trainer, groom, owner, exhibitor, etc.
      That said, I have several friends who are involved in TWHs and have been to Celebration. My friends do not, will not, and have not ever sored or "fixed" their padded horses. The horses were not padded year round and they were not kept in stalls 24/7 even when they were padded. They were given turnout while people were at the barn (so that if the horse pulled a shoe/pad, someone was there to notice) and every horse was checked before they went back in to make sure none had pulled one.

      Now, for my first point.
      Originally posted by katarine View Post
      It's not the wannabe's, it's not the die-hards: it's all of 'em.
      Originally posted by Montanas_Girl View Post
      The entire big lick industry is abusive, sored or not.... When you buy a TWH out of a trainer's barn, the trainer gives you a can and tells you how to "fix" the horse for shows.
      Just a CYA thing here: Blanket statements such as these can be used against the person who makes them in a libel suit. If the sentiment "IMO" is not in some way expressed, then you are making accusations that you can't prove. By saying ALL TWH are sored or ALL big lick horses are abused, then any person who shows TWH/Big Lick horses and does not sore (or who does and has never been caught, unfortunately) can sue you for libel. Once something is posted on the internet, it is legally considered to be published. How do I know this? I made the mistake of doing this same thing on a different BB and almost got myself sued. So please, CYA and just add "in my opinion" or "the way I see it" or something to that effect if you're going to make blanket statements.

      Originally posted by lindac View Post
      Try taking a heavy chain and slamming it down on your finger nails a couple of hundred times and see how it feels. I don't need to prove it to myself by acting it out, my COMMON SENSE tell me that it is painful!
      Actually, I have acted it out. When I first saw TWH being trained with chains, I expressed to my friend that I couldn't believe she would do something that would hurt her horse like that. She insisted that the horse was not in pain and that she put them on herself before she put them on her horses and that at the weight that was uncomfortable to her, she stopped. I told her that I felt that that was subjective and (with her permission) went to the horse and removed the chains and put them around my (bare) ankles, sure that it was going to hurt. I ran around the arena with them on (feeling like a total idiot, lol) and while the friction was uncomfortable, the "banging" against my very bony ankles really didn't bother me. I mentioned the friction to her and she went to the tack area and came back with a bottle. I don't remember what was in it, but she used her bare hands to rub it on my bare ankles and then told me to run around again. The chains didn't rub! The stuff she rubbed on didn't cause heat and didn't irritate my skin (and I'm so sensitive that I can't have oil or lotion rubbed on me for a back rub b/c I break out) and I didn't wash the stuff off after a few minutes, either. So, from my experience, I have to say that I don't see a problem with chains being used as a training aid. On a side note, when I was running around, I did notice that even I lifted my legs higher, not b/c it hurt, but b/c of the little bit of extra weight. I do the same thing when I wear heavy boots.
      *Finally returned from the dead.*
      One man's wrong lead is another man's counter-canter.
      - S.D. Price

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Pronzini View Post
        Don't know anything about Big Lick horses--have no opinion. What I have noticed is that alot of the same perceptions, arguments, what have you in this thread are trotted out against horse racing by some of the same posters with the same vehemence.

        So even though I don't know anything and the posters (and yourself) may be right, my caution light is on until I learn more.
        [emphasis mine]

        As well it should be. If you go to the endless "stop TWH abuse" thread and pick through it for FACTS you should be able to learn quite a bit. But bear in mind that this is a very, very "hot button" topic and there are heated and emotional arguments on BOTH sides of the table. I have formed my opinion, which I clearly state is MY opinion, after doing my research. You are most welcome to do the same.
        "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
          um... I'm confused. Is this supposed to be an "OK" thing? As in, it's perfectly normal and OK for horses to have callouses built up from training methods?

          I have no huge problem with chains- but if they're worn so much that the horse's skin is damaged permanently from the friction, how on earth can anybody say that's OK? Fine and dandy?

          I guess I just don't get it. Huh.
          hummm...I'm not a particular lover of padded horses, and I'm for damned sure not a lover of honest abuse, but *I* have calluses on my toes, feet and fingers, and I've never been abused or sored.

          Comment


          • #65
            So do I, but there was something odd about that. I wouldn't do anything purposely to cause callouses- that suggests to me a certain amount of discomfort (most of my callouses are on places that blistered repeatedly). I guess the way it was phrased, like "oh, that's only scarring, no biggie" kind of bothered me.

            We used training chains on saddlebreds all the time at home, but none of them ever developed callouses from it.

            And then, if a horse did develop callouses, what would the point of the chains be? Callouses/thickened skin would deaden the sensation, so aren't you sort of shooting yourself in the foot there?

            Again, I know callouses happen and don't necessarily mean abuse, it was the phrasing of that comment that really bothered me in ways I'm apparently no good at explaining through this medium, LOL
            "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

            My CANTER blog.

            Comment


            • #66
              I can remember first going out to my new 4-H leader's barn. She had one big lick in the barn and the rest were show horse Saddlebreds. I was in horror! Then she explained to me all about it. I ended up working for her for years! She did tell me about how the Big Licks were sored. Tho she never sored hers. She did use chains, but used grease so it wouldn't cause friction.
              Most of the time she used leather collars for her ASB's!
              I can remember going home and tying socks around my POA's pasterns. You know what? He picked up his feet like a big lick!

              I don't agree with big licks or lots of padding in the ASB's. There are plenty of people who do indeed abuse their horses. But not everybody. I would be thrilled if the soring was stopped. But I know not everything done to them is abuse in my eye's.
              http://community.webshots.com/user/snafflebitz

              "My Saddlebred can do anything your horse can do" Clique

              Comment


              • #67
                I just had a hunch.... and guess what?

                I WAS RIGHT! I was thinking... I bet since the Celebration was paused the other day I bet there is "someone" starting crap on this message board about what was going on. HA HA HA
                Here we go again.

                Remember on the other board when I said that this wasn't the first nor the last time this subject would be brought up. It is just funny. I get a kick out of reading the posts from people who have NO IDEA what they are talking about.

                For the record people, just in case someone isn't sure or didn't know. The USDA didn't shut the show down the trainers did! They just said no more! The USDA gave out 16 scar rule tickets in a row! After the same horse had passed the DQP. So the trainers requested that the show be halted and restarted the next day and guess what? There was no USDA there the next day.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Hi Nunya! Good to hear from you again, I hope your little kittie did well!!

                  I can't remember - didn't we establish on the other thread that the DQP can be trainers and owners themselves, whereas the USDA are government officials? Fox guarding the henhouse??

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    For those of you who are against the soring here is a letter from Friends Of The Sound Horse http://www.friendsofsoundhorses.org explaining the situation and how you can help. More info on soring can be found at http://soundhorse.org These are not Peta type groups, most all of the people involved in these organizations are TWH owners, breeders and trainers who want the soring to stop. Additionally Fosh is a HIO organization which means it is certified with the government to do DQP inspections at horse shows and etc. Another sound organization that is also certified for DQP inspections is NWHA http://www.nwha.com

                    Thanks much, Dee


                    Dear Friend of the Sound Horse,

                    As you are probably already aware, there have been conflicts this
                    week at the TWH Celebration, between NHSC DQPs and the USDA VMOs
                    assigned to ensure that sore horses are not allowed to be shown.
                    These conflicts have led to mob behavior, threats against USDA
                    personnel, and ultimately, the departure of those personnel from the
                    showgrounds on Friday August 25th out of concern that Tennessee
                    Highway Patrol would not be able to provide them adequate
                    protection.

                    It has been rumored that USDA personnel may be instructed by their
                    superiors to either not attend the remainder of the Celebration, or
                    to "back off" on their insistence on full and proper enforcement.

                    Pressure for this move has been coming from the Walking Horse
                    industry and those members of Congress close to the industry. We
                    are hearing that some efforts to urge the Secretary of Agriculture
                    to pull the USDA from the Celebration will be made as early as this
                    Monday, August 28, 2006.

                    It is imperative that all sound horse owners contact key
                    Administration and elected officials on Monday to tell them that the
                    USDA should be allowed to do its job, and oversee the inspections at
                    the Celebration.

                    President Bush may be hearing from some in the big lick WH industry,
                    and needs to hear from us, too. Secretary of Agriculture Mike
                    Johanns, Animal Care Administrator Dr. Ron DeHaven and Animal Care
                    Deputy Administrator Chester Gipson are responsible for
                    administering the USDA's Horse Protection Program.

                    Sens. Frist and Alexander of TN are receiving a great deal of
                    pressure from the WH industry. Rep. Gordon of TN is an old friend
                    of the industry, but needs to hear of your opposition to
                    interference with USDA enforcement efforts. Rep. Harold Ford, Jr.
                    of TN is a Democrat running for Frist's Senate seat, and we believe
                    has recently gotten involved in this issue on behalf of the industry
                    in hopes of attracting statewide votes.

                    You should also copy your letter to your own U.S. representative and
                    2 U.S. Senators - to find their contact information, visit
                    www.congress.org and type your zip code in the box on the left.

                    The following sample letter may be cut/pasted and sent as-is, or you
                    may change it, or write one of your own. Letters should be faxed or
                    emailed (with the subject line "TENNESSEE WALKING HORSE
                    CELEBRATION") and calls should also be made. Contact information is
                    as follows:

                    President George W. Bush
                    Email: president@whitehouse.gov
                    Phone: (202) 456-1414
                    Fax: (202) 456-2461

                    Mike Johanns, Secretary of Agriculture
                    Email: Mike.Johanns@usda.gov
                    Phone: (202) 720-3631
                    Fax: (202) 720-2166

                    Dr. Ron DeHaven, Adminstrator, Animal Care, USDA/APHIS
                    Email: Ron.DeHaven@usda.gov
                    Phone: 202-720-3668
                    Fax: (202) 720-3054

                    Dr. Chester Gipson, Deputy Administrator, Animal Care, USDA/APHIS
                    Email: Chester.A.Gipson@aphis.usda.gov
                    Phone: 301-734-4980

                    Sen. Bill Frist
                    Email (click on Send Message, then scroll down to Compose Your Own
                    Letter, at www.frist.senate.gov)
                    Phone: 202-224-3344
                    Fax: 202-228-1264

                    Sen. Lamar Alexander
                    Email (click on Send Message, then scroll down to Compose Your Own
                    Letter, at www.alexander.senate.gov)
                    Phone: 202-224-4944
                    Fax: 202-228-3398

                    Rep. Bart Gordon
                    Email (click on Send Message, then scroll down to Compose Your Own
                    Letter, at www.gordon.house.gov)
                    Phone: 202-225-4231
                    Fax: 202-225-6887

                    Rep. Harold Ford, Jr.
                    Email: rep.harold.ford.jr@mail.house.gov
                    Phone: 202-225-3265
                    Fax: 202-225-5663

                    Thank you for taking the time to make these contacts, for the sake
                    of the horses!

                    Keith Dane, USDA Liaison for
                    Friends of Sound Horses, Inc.

                    SAMPLE LETTER:

                    President George W. Bush
                    Mike Johanns, Secretary of Agriculture
                    Dr. Ron DeHaven, Adminstrator, Animal Care, USDA/APHIS
                    Dr. Chester Gipson, Deputy Administrator, Animal Care, USDA/APHIS

                    August 28, 2006

                    Dear Sirs,

                    I am writing to you as one of the many thousands of owners of sound
                    (non-sored) Tennessee Walking Horses in the state of Tennessee and
                    across the United States.

                    It is my understanding that during the opening days of this year's
                    TWH National Celebration show, there have been conflicts between
                    horse industry inspectors licensed by the National Horse Show
                    Commission (NHSC) and the USDA personnel present to oversee
                    inspections. These conflicts have led to mob behavior, threats
                    against USDA personnel, and ultimately, the departure of those
                    personnel from the showgrounds on Friday August 25th out of concern
                    that Tennessee Highway Patrol would not be able to provide them
                    adequate protection.

                    It has been rumored that Horse Protection personnel may be
                    instructed by their superiors to either not attend the remainder of
                    the Celebration, or to "back off" on their insistence on full and
                    proper enforcement of the Horse Protection Act.

                    It is the experience of many eyewitnesses that at NHSC shows, proper
                    inspections are often not conducted by industry inspectors, and the
                    requirements of the Act and Regulations are not always followed. It
                    is critical to the proper enforcement of the HPA that USDA personnel
                    oversee the inspection process at the national championship show for
                    this breed, which compelled Congress to pass a federal law to
                    regulate it, and which continues to reward sored horses.

                    I support the full enforcement efforts of USDA Horse Protection
                    personnel, and I expect the Department to fulfill its responsibility
                    to enforce the Act by ensuring that those personnel attend and
                    oversee the 2006 Celebration. Failure to do so would be a
                    dereliction of the Department's duties as mandated by Congress.

                    Do not succumb to the mob mentality of some in the TWH industry and
                    bow to their pressure to interfere with USDA enforcement efforts.
                    This industry and its inspectors continue to warrant close USDA
                    scrutiny and oversight in order to ensure proper enforcement of the
                    Act. The media, the humane community and the American voter will be
                    watching how this situation unfolds.

                    Sincerely,

                    (Your name)

                    Cc: Senator Bill Frist
                    Senator Lamar Alexander
                    Rep. Bart Gordon
                    Rep. Harold Ford, Jr.

                    (Your Representative)
                    (Your Senator)
                    (Your Senator)

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Nun Ya View Post
                      I get a kick out of reading the posts from people who have NO IDEA what they are talking about.
                      Funny how you percieve everyone else as ignorant, yet ya'll are the ones with horses and scars.

                      The USDA didn't shut the show down the trainers did! They just said no more! The USDA gave out 16 scar rule tickets in a row! After the same horse had passed the DQP. So the trainers requested that the show be halted and restarted the next day and guess what? There was no USDA there the next day.
                      So the USDA has limited funding and only attends your show for 1 day, and they are the wrong ones? In the short time they did spend there, 16 citations from a certified VETERINARY, and the other competitors refused to present for inspection and you think you are right?
                      Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        The USDA gave out 16 scar rule tickets in a row! After the same horse had passed the DQP. So the trainers requested that the show be halted and restarted the next day and guess what? There was no USDA there the next day.
                        Nun Ya, all of this was already posted, within the first (two?) page, by people from the "other side", so don't be too quick to try to pass it off as information that would be useful to what you're promoting.
                        <><

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Note bene: Dr Dehaven (third contact down?)'s office transfers you to the office below it; the e-mail address/ phone number for him is actually forwarded to Dr Gibson anyway, so just stick with Dr Gibson (called and was given this information). Best way to contact Dr Gibson (today at least) is to pop him an e-mail.
                          <><

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by blaster View Post
                            Funny how you percieve everyone else as ignorant, yet ya'll are the ones with horses and scars.



                            So the USDA has limited funding and only attends your show for 1 day, and they are the wrong ones? In the short time they did spend there, 16 citations from a certified VETERINARY, and the other competitors refused to present for inspection and you think you are right?

                            I have bitten my tongue as long as I can, so here goes.
                            Dr. Behre, who is an equine DENTIST, went to the Celebration with an axe to grind, and to stir trouble. HE asked the THP to go, not for his protection b/c folks are not stupid enough to give him any trouble, but for intimidation. He was looking to start trouble. HE stopped a horse that had been passed by several DQP AFTER it left the inspection on the way to the ring and just grabbed this horse out of the blue. This horse was ridden by a trainer yes, but still a close to elderly man, and you just don't do it the way he did it, which was rough and rude. It was this act of rudeness that was the final straw.

                            The VMOs did not start rejecting horses en masse until they got to the open classes-the trainers classes. They were ticketing horses that had already been checked and cleared (by them!) in earlier youth classes and by dqp in a/o. They were after the trainers, the good the bad and the ugly. While they should get those who sore, they should be made to follow the rule book, and they should apply those rules equally, whether it is a kid's youth horse, or a stake horse. Y'all jump up and down and holler that they can't write a ticket for a pasture scar. You're right, they are not supposed to BUT THEY DO.
                            17 2 yr olds got sent back to the trailers. There is no way that 17 2 yr olds IN A ROW had soring scars. These were not soring tickets, they were scar rule tickets.


                            The VMOs also threatened to block the exit gates so no one could leave. (And just for the record, many of the trainers had horses still on the farms around there, stabled off grounds, so they needed to go in and out). I don't care who you are and what your title is, DO NOT TELL ME I can't leave the premises unless I am under arrest.

                            The trainers asked for classes to be postponed so that they could meet with the USDA and discuss what was going on in a rational manner, like gentlemen should, because the behaviour of the USDA was quickly becoming out of line. THere was a power kick going on, and it needed to be stopped before ugliness was allowed to take over. The trainers did what was right. The USDA will be back before the end of the Celebration, guarantee it. But maybe, they will go in with the attitude that it is for the welfare of the horses rather than the idea that they are out to get so and so and so and so.
                            http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

                            She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Thank you Gnalli. I appreciate the time you took to explain the facts to us.
                              "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Went looking for trouble- yipee. How convenient he found it.

                                And if they came somewhere where I was looking for trouble, and they were to find it, I would blame myself- not them. Doesn't matter to me what they went looking for. If they find it- that's my issue.

                                As far as I know, they don't have to arrest you to make you stay somewhere if it is under investigation, although I may be wrong. It seems that that would have to be within their rights- otherwise, how would they investigate?
                                <><

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  VMO means &quot;Veterinary Medical Officer&quot;

                                  If Dr. Behre is a VMO, then he is certainly more than just a "horse dentist" as has been stated on this and other boards. He is a vet! One of the most amusing posts I've seen on this (I've lost track of where, though it was probably somewhere on the Walking Horse Report site) said something along the lines of how the DQPs were given extensive training, usually with a vet WORKING ALONGSIDE THEM, while the VMOs didn't get all that training ! You wonder where people's minds are...

                                  Either this year's Celebration heralds the beginning of a new era as far as the USDA's crackdowns are concerned, or it's just another speed bump on Business as Usual Street. I sincerely hope it's the former.

                                  On very positive thing that happened at the Celebration this year has actually been lost in all the commotion over the shutdown: namely, the return of the former WGC Cash for Keeps in the Lite-Shod division. In an historic move, his trainer and amateur owner both rode him to WCs in this division! Keeps was the most natural-moving padded horse to win the WGC in recent memory (some were even upset that he won because he "wasn't doing enough"), and showing that he can do a more than respectable show gait without all the pads and chains is a great step forward for the breed.

                                  By the way, as an aside, Keeps' former owners were very vocal in complaining that a former trainer pressure shod him without their knowledge. They moved the horse, gave him two years under a vet's care to recover, and then started showing him again. He was one of the oldest recent WGCs (at nine, I believe) and now at 15, he's showing is own versatility by competing lite-shod. His owners and trainer are to be commended.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    ha ha ha ha ha

                                    HI Blaster! I am not calling anybody ignorant. However people who know nothing about walking horses, and want to rant and rave about how awful padded walking horses are treated and what scum the people who own them are, and how EVERY walking horse is sored, now that chaps my hinny! Its like the old saying "dipping in Kool Aid and don't know the flavor". There is to much MIS - INFORMATION out there.

                                    There is no point in getting into heated conversations with people over this.

                                    RoyalTRider - What exactly is it that I am promoting? Enlighten me. And if you really want to know, EVERYTHING that is posted on here has already been posted on another board.

                                    HI Two Simple,

                                    Yes my kitty is doing great. I guess life was getting to quite and we all needed a little pre labor day debate to get started. ha ha

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                                    • #78
                                      You are promoting what you see as the- well, promotion- of facts. I didn't mean the word promoter as an insult. That's what almost everyone here- *raises hand*- is doing- promoting one's views. That's what almost every post on almost every board is. Putting one's views forwards. Um, not sure why you shared to me personally that it's posted on another board. All I said was what you had posted with "for the record" (although you did say just in case some people didn't know) and with HA HA HA and calling some of what we wrote trash (using a different word) and telling us we have no idea what we're talking- you posted all that and ended it with some statements about what happened. If you make a post like that, we can logically assume the post leads up to your great end point, where you enlighten us about what went on, with the 16 horses, etc. I did nothing mroe than point out that that had already been posted and used as a positive for the "other side" of this issue. In other words, you made a whole post telling us how wrong and trashed our posts were, and then told us what made them so, with your ending about the 16 horses. I pointed out that that had not already been posted, but posted by the "other side". I assume since you posted it with HA HA HA fanfare, you were using it to, again, promote what you believe. I merely pointed out- we had already done so, except for for our cause.
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                                      • #79
                                        Ah, I re-read it and see why you said that everything had already been posted on other boards- I think you just misunderstood why I pointed out that "we" (on the other side of the issue) had already brought it up and used it on this thread. I wasn't suggesting it was wrong of you to bring it up. I was pointing out, because since you posted it I thought you had probably missed it, that the same points had already been made, but the reason I pointed it out was because you had left it at the facts- and perhaps, since we had already used those same facts towards our side, you might want to point out why you are using them for your side (with your own interpretation or comments).

                                        To clear any confusion, this is what I am refering to:

                                        For the record people, just in case someone isn't sure or didn't know. The USDA gave out 16 scar rule tickets in a row! After the same horse had passed the DQP. So the trainers requested that the show be halted and restarted the next day and guess what? There was no USDA there the next day.
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                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by Gnalli View Post
                                          The VMOs did not start rejecting horses en masse until they got to the open classes-the trainers classes. They were ticketing horses that had already been checked and cleared (by them!) in earlier youth classes and by dqp in a/o. They were after the trainers, the good the bad and the ugly. While they should get those who sore, they should be made to follow the rule book, and they should apply those rules equally, whether it is a kid's youth horse, or a stake horse. Y'all jump up and down and holler that they can't write a ticket for a pasture scar. You're right, they are not supposed to BUT THEY DO.
                                          17 2 yr olds got sent back to the trailers. There is no way that 17 2 yr olds IN A ROW had soring scars. These were not soring tickets, they were scar rule tickets.
                                          I don't think that is unreasonable at all to recheck and not clear a horse that has already been cleared earlier in the day. Anything can happen from the time it leaves the first class, goes and hangs out in the stall for hours and then returns later to be shown again. How long do you think that it is gonna take to actually get the message across? I don't want to hear one more time that everybody isn't abusive to their horses...no sh!t !Maybe eventually the good horseman will start outnumbering the the ones that are ruining it for the rest. Remember that everytime you turn your head or you go off on the USDA that your making it worse for your horses and yourself. geez
                                          Corner Stone Farm
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