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TWH Celebration Classes Postponed!

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    If your horse is not sored and does not bear scars from years of irriattions from chains/rollers/etc., then you will have no problem with the USDA inspectors. If the horse has scars of any type on the pastern, it is not supposed to be shown. Period. End of discussion. Just because the DQPs don't enforce the rules, that doesn't mean the government should look the other way as well.

    I've ridden TWHs all my life. I've been in show barns, backyard barns, show rings large and small, and plenty of trail rides as well. Soring is NOT limited to the "big guys" or the "little guys". It is an industry-wide problem. Sometimes it's not even the show horses! I once saw an 18-month old filly, destined to be a trail horse, with lather dripping down her shaking sides and bloody pasterns from the "training devices" she had been wearing for the past two hours on her FIRST ride away from home! Sadly, I've seen many, many, many, more than that. I've had people come into classes to deliver a guest lecture on the TWH industry (and this is multiple people, not one), and then proceed to discuss the different packages used on the horses, the pros and cons of pressure shoeing, and the differences between using mustard oil and kerosene! Don't tell me that this problem is limited to a select group of troublemakers. I know better.

    I've been around some great TWH people, too, don't get me wrong. One of the guys on our intercollegiate team show flat shod horses who are sound, and his horses are beautiful. There is a barn in the area that does the versatility shows, and their horses are beautiful. Sadly, though, those people are much fewer and further between than the other type.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by greysandbays View Post
      The non-logic of this statement just boggles the mind. The pervasiveness of this non-logic throughout the human population is downright horrifying.
      She set her "COMMON SENSE" up as the infalible standard of whether something was "painful and uncomfortable" because of how it looked TO HER.
      ......
      greysandbays... what is your problem?

      Try taking a heavy chain and slamming it down on your finger nails a couple of hundred times and see how it feels. I don't need to prove it to myself by acting it out, my COMMON SENSE tell me that it is painful!

      Horses can't talk to us and tell us they are in pain. We have to observe them and watch for signs that they are uncomfortable. I am not some greenhorn that hasn't been around horses before. I have had horses for over 25 years. So, I think I am a pretty good judge of what horses find uncomfortable and what constitutes abuse.

      When I watch a horse straining to do it's gaits with wild eyes, stacks on it's feet that make it move in unnatural ways, and posturing itself to take the weight off it's front feet like a horse with laminitis does, it is painful for me to watch. When I hear the thwack thwack thwack of chains repeatedly hitting a horses sensitive cornet and pastern, it is painful for me to watch. I am 100 % certain that my COMMON SENSE is right when I say that these horses are in pain!

      Comment


      • #43
        My buddy at work

        shows in one of the related breed associations. He brings in the magazines and shows me the ads for his horses; one day he had the trailer all set up and ready to go in the parking lot so he could pick up the horses right after work and head to the show - he showed off all his and his daughter's suits, the tack, his daughter's Western ensemble and the blinged out headstalls etc.. Nice stuff, all of it. He's told me basically everything I know about the TWH, RM and SSH breeds. Him and this BB.
        He showed up at shift change with his proofs from the recent related breed championships and his championship rides in country pleasure and I forget what else. When I looked him in the eye and said "So, the "government" shut down the Celebration"; he seemed so sad, and told me his friend that had been there said that even his flat shod horses would have been written up.
        He's been telling me about the folks that scratch when they see the "government", and the "sniffers", and the ways that soring can be done to get around the "sniffers", but I think it boils down that losing to someone who gets the action by soring, white lining, standing them on blocks, and road foundering is really hard to take. The only way it is going to change is if there is a voluntary shift throughout the industry away from the performance horse/pad horse and back to the lite shod/flat shod and yes, barefoot, totally natural and unenhanced gait. There are people out there advocating this thru the versatility, and my friend and his shoer are proud of having "clean" horses, but it will mean the end of an era, and a lot of people have a lot invested in that status quo.
        This is a tradition and a part of culture for many many folks and it will take a long hard time to let go of it. Shutting down the Celebration was a huge move but only one of many more battles to be fought.
        Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
        Incredible Invisible

        Comment


        • #44
          videos

          Where can I see a video online of Big Lick horses?

          Comment


          • #45
            Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders and Exhibitors Association at www.twhbea.com but the link seems to be down at the moment. (I expect due to the issues regarding the Celebration).
            Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
            Incredible Invisible

            Comment


            • #46
              First off, thank you MAO for being the first one to ask insightful questions and show a genuine interest in wanting to learn instead of making accusations. To answer your questions:
              1. The way that a TWH travels is not unnatural for the breed. Colts that are only a few days old will travel the same way just not as enhanced. Im sure that for someone that hasn't been around them, it does look different and odd but it is their natural gait. Im sure a walking horse person that saw a different breed travel for the first time would think it looked wrong whether it is or not.
              2. The exaggerated gait is produced by shoeing, bitting and training plus the use of action devices which cannot weigh more than 6 ounces. For a 1200lb horse, that is like a 120lb woman wearing a .6oz braclet.
              3. The DQP inspects every horse before it can be shown and if it is found to be out of compliance with the Horse Protection Act then they cannot show. So if a horse is in the ring, then it has been determined that the horse is not sore by a USDA regulated DQP.
              4. To my knowledge, there were no federal marshalls there. I have never heard of a VMO being threatened. I know they do sometimes take federal marshalls with them but it's more of a precautionary thing then necessity.
              Hope this helps. Ill be glad to answer any other questions you have
              -Some people are like Slinkies ... not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Goodoldboy View Post
                First off, thank you MAO for being the first one to ask insightful questions and show a genuine interest in wanting to learn instead of making accusations. To answer your questions:
                1. The way that a TWH travels is not unnatural for the breed. Colts that are only a few days old will travel the same way just not as enhanced. Im sure that for someone that hasn't been around them, it does look different and odd but it is their natural gait. Im sure a walking horse person that saw a different breed travel for the first time would think it looked wrong whether it is or not.
                2. The exaggerated gait is produced by shoeing, bitting and training plus the use of action devices which cannot weigh more than 6 ounces. For a 1200lb horse, that is like a 120lb woman wearing a .6oz braclet.
                3. The DQP inspects every horse before it can be shown and if it is found to be out of compliance with the Horse Protection Act then they cannot show. So if a horse is in the ring, then it has been determined that the horse is not sore by a USDA regulated DQP.
                4. To my knowledge, there were no federal marshalls there. I have never heard of a VMO being threatened. I know they do sometimes take federal marshalls with them but it's more of a precautionary thing then necessity.
                Hope this helps. Ill be glad to answer any other questions you have
                Goodoldboy, my question is, (I have nothing to do with gaited horses): If it is natural for the breed to move the way it does and "colts that are only a few days old will travel the same way" then why don't you(not personally you ) just show the breed the way it is and not try to create something it isn't by inflickting pain? Another words, if it is so natural for the breed to display this type of movment, why would a trainer: put chains around a horses pasterns, sore a horse, stack shoes, put tacks in bellboots? Just to name a few of the things that I'm reading. ALL of these things would be punishible in the hunter/jumper world. It's just not "Right". Doesn't matter what breed or discipline. Utilize the natural ability of your horse and become a real trainer. Training trains a horse. Physically instilling pain on your horse for a ribbon only verifies you were never a good trainer to begin with.
                Corner Stone Farm
                Weeki Wachee,FL .Follow us on FB!

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Goodoldboy View Post
                  2. The exaggerated gait is produced by shoeing, bitting and training plus the use of action devices which cannot weigh more than 6 ounces. For a 1200lb horse, that is like a 120lb woman wearing a .6oz braclet.
                  Goodoldboy- maybe you should rephrase this to say: "2. The exaggerated gait is produced by shoeing, bitting and training plus the use of action devices which cannot weigh more than 6 ounces AT A SHOW"

                  I've seen a whole lot bigger chains used at home in training. You can find rollers up to 14oz. in a quick online search of World Champion Horse Equipment.

                  And let's not forget just how much the shoeing can weigh! They are flinging those often 5lb shoes and pads around with the "action devices" attached around the ankles making the force so many times more than the equivalent of a "120lb woman wearing a .6oz braclet"
                  Last edited by spookhorse; Aug. 29, 2006, 11:37 AM.
                  ~ Shannon Hayden ~

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by tbtrailrider View Post
                    Where can I see a video online of Big Lick horses?
                    http://www.attherisingstar.com/

                    Look under the Stallion links and it look slike they all have videos. I have no idea if these horses were sored and won't speculate on it. But it will show you what Big Lick horses look like in movement.
                    ~ Shannon Hayden ~

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      [QUOTE=gray17htb;1846868]Another words, if it is so natural for the breed to display this type of movment, why would a trainer: put chains around a horses pasterns, sore a horse, stack shoes, put tacks in bellboots?

                      the lateral movement is inbred....that is very very true....the majority of the modern horses gaited however have lost a great bit of the four distinct beats of the gait and are now too lateral such that they pace like standardbreds....(watch the elbows and stifles on your own horse tonite...a good gaited four beat horse will move this way....near stifle.near elbow,off stifle,off elbow....just as your "on the buckle" loose walk of non gaiteds....the elevation of knee and hock will further differentiate the gaits one from another)

                      by padding the front feet you not only get the "break up" of the two beat pace in to a more four beat gait you also get the super high action that the three time WGC Talk of Town brought on the scene in the middle 1950's....

                      he was huge and floaty like a big saddlebred but in four beats not two like a trot....and up headed and remarkable with the simple plantation shoes of the time (which were a derivation of the shoes the horses wore while plowing...complete w/turnback and trailers)as an aside a walking horse that is too trotty can be heavy shod behind to break up the trot to a four beat gait....

                      there is a great bit of wickedness in the horse wolrd anywhere people value their own egos and wallets more than the animals... and where animals really matter this will be so foreign as to seem to come from Pluto...

                      I am told the parting act of an ugly little hunter trainer I know from their last farm sacking was to intentionally grain founder the clients best smalls............hummm....whose the more evil deep down ?? or are they the same evil in a different package ????

                      I have known people for decades who only pad for the apr-sept show season...((not unlike a third level dressagy horse I knew once who never saw outside turn out for fear he would blow a tendon...just from trotting around))....

                      and padding can be weighed and non weighed and the bracelets and bangles can be heavy or light....

                      and I myself use saran wrap sweats to keep legs healthy and tight and meds and poultices in place and non evaporating (learned from a Lexy KY broodmare farm)

                      I was lucky I suppose...my friend of a decade or more til his death was Merry Go Boy's groom....he held him the nite he won the Celebration.... trying to keep him form spooking at a handful of ballons while they tried to keep his competition (Midnight Sun) from dying of the "thumps" across the way...those two great old stallions formed the basis of most all breeding today....

                      Tamara in TN
                      Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                      I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by tbtrailrider View Post
                        Where can I see a video online of Big Lick horses?
                        I have some pretty horrific ones saved to my computer that I can email to you. Just private message me with your email address.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by rooster View Post
                          Dispatcher,
                          Did it ever occur to you that the long-term use of chains for training and showing would perhaps cause "scarring" as you call it. We call it a callous and is caused by the friction of the chains against their skin.
                          Rooster--I didn't write anything about "scarring". I wrote SORING!

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Goodolboy- you say
                            "To my knowledge, there were no federal marshalls there. I have never heard of a VMO being threatened. I know they do sometimes take federal marshalls with them but it's more of a precautionary thing then necessity."

                            Well....There were 50 state police in riot gear, 25 mounted patrol, and another 25 in uniform . So no federal marshalls but the danger was and is very real.

                            I also appreciate your willingness to answer questions.

                            1. What exactly do the 6 oz chains do? i.e. what is their function/ how do they work?

                            2. Regarding the 6 oz chains -don't you think it would improve breed image if people showed their horses without chains? Many people starting in horses might be drawn to the TWH because of its gentle nature and smooth gaits -but- upon seeing show pictures of horses wearing chains will be "turned off" by the (perceived- I am not trying to say it is or is not cruel)) cruelty.

                            3.Again -this regards the breed image and growth of the sport- it is said that not everyone sores but it seems many do it in some sort of fashion (based upon tickets wrtitten by the USDA AND the DQPs). For most people starting in horses or those that have non -TWH instances of soring would make them not want to attend shows (and they can be lots of fun!)
                            What would you think about a zero tolerance policy? Or perhaps something similiar to what the AQHA did in western pleasure (i.e. punishing judges who placed "peanut rollers" and "tropers"). That way no sore horses would be tied and the playing field would be level - I think this did work well for the AQHA and improved the image of the western pleasure horse.
                            Do you think the indusrty would support something like this in order to maintain and grow the fan base?

                            4. And finally -you may not be able to answer this- why do you think people do sore horses? I think understanding the why might help find a solution.
                            Is it greed (for winnings), ignorance, or is it that they truly do not think the horses are being harmed?

                            Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. I look forward to hearing your response.
                            http://cuonxc.blogspot.com

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Goodoldboy View Post
                              2. The exaggerated gait is produced by shoeing, bitting and training plus the use of action devices which cannot weigh more than 6 ounces. For a 1200lb horse, that is like a 120lb woman wearing a .6oz braclet.

                              That type of scaling is nonsense.
                              A 1200 pound horse does not have skin 10x thicker than a human's, for one thing.

                              Furthermore, the same 1200 pound animal can feel a fly land on its pastern--why does it "need" a 6 oz chain?
                              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by rooster View Post
                                Dispatcher,
                                Did it ever occur to you that the long-term use of chains for training and showing would perhaps cause "scarring" as you call it. We call it a callous and is caused by the friction of the chains against their skin.
                                um... I'm confused. Is this supposed to be an "OK" thing? As in, it's perfectly normal and OK for horses to have callouses built up from training methods?

                                I have no huge problem with chains- but if they're worn so much that the horse's skin is damaged permanently from the friction, how on earth can anybody say that's OK? Fine and dandy?

                                I guess I just don't get it. Huh.
                                "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                                My CANTER blog.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  As of now at least, I'm not jumping in except for to say: I've noticed (and I say this with no sarcastic undertones and mean it with all due respect) that most of the BL supports (and that is most of a very small number) say repeatedly that people are posting without knowing facts and/ or without having seen it themselves or being involved in the world of BL TWH. I also realise that this is often said with calmness and respect. However, it is simply not true on COTH. Most of the "minor contributors" have minimal knowledge on the subject but almost all of the main ones are extensively involved. Maybe not as much as you are, but that is part and parcel of the horse world- not everyone is going to be just as involved/ knowledgeable as you are, but that is just from your perspective- they can still be both involved and knowledgeable.

                                  For the people who didn't read the 112-page thread on this, don't think from seeing it here that the BL naysayers aren't actively involved or were not once actively involved in this- practice. Again, as I said, most of the people who just share a few opinions or links are not, but most of the ones who are really driving the thread and bringing up new/ interesting points rather than just repeating everyone else are or were involved in this- um, practice. (And for those of you who missed it, I bring this up because many of the pro-BL people say that people with little or no knowledge or fact are spreading rumors and falisies here.)

                                  It goes for both sides- you may have seen one thing, they may have seen another, but don't try to "discredit" people to those reading the thread by saying that so-and-so has no experience/ knowledge unless you know that for sure. This is the HORSE world- people have seen and remember different things from other people.
                                  <><

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    1. What exactly do the 6 oz chains do? i.e. what is their function/ how do they work?
                                    I understand this question was meant for someone in particular, and I hope she will still answer, but I feel I can put together a competent answer on this from how I personally understand/ view the practice.

                                    In this case, the chains "bang" against the horse's leg, which causes the horse to pick the leg up higher. It can also (although sides disagree) cause bruising/ scarring of some sort.

                                    Also, on the 112-page thread, it was brought up by a BL supporter that the chains are greased to help prevent bouncing. Someone anti-lick responded that they would indeed make the impact more on the horse's leg; instead of sliding amongst each other, they would just hit the horse harder. Please don't flame me for that- that is just something someone from up.

                                    Please don't be upset by anything that is against what anyone beliefs in this post- I tried to give the facts, as I understand and view them, without bias towards either side.
                                    <><

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I was at a show wandering through the barns (only show or any breed that I've gotten dirty looks for from wandering through the barns looking at horses!) and I saw many horses standing who would lift one front foot up and stretch it straight out and hold it there and gradually ease it to the ground. Then after a minute they'd move it back and do the same thing with the other one. It wasn't just one horse doing this weird little ballet it was MANY of them. Something I've never seen any other horse do at all much less a dozen in succession. And no they weren't stretching either.

                                      I will say that over the years this particular show has gotten better overall in terms of sore horses and obvious soring practices (that running up and down the road thing at full speed, not so much saran wrap, etc.) and the horses in the stalls look happier (well relative term...). So either they are doing less of it or just getting better AT it not being detected. But the horses that do move more naturally don't place as well so what's a trainer to do? (find another breed! the only people who can clean up the big lick ring are the members!!)

                                      What I DID find disturbing was the trickling down of some kind of soring practices to the lite shod and plantation shod horses. When the show started here they were very natural, now they are obviously vigorously "enhanced" at home in some manner or maybe they are former big lick horses I don't know. But pretty soon the normal moving TWH will have to have its own shows to get a ribbon if this trend continues.
                                      Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                                      Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Goodoldboy View Post
                                        First off, thank you MAO for being the first one to ask insightful questions and show a genuine interest in wanting to learn instead of making accusations. To answer your questions:
                                        1. The way that a TWH travels is not unnatural for the breed. Colts that are only a few days old will travel the same way just not as enhanced. Im sure that for someone that hasn't been around them, it does look different and odd but it is their natural gait. Im sure a walking horse person that saw a different breed travel for the first time would think it looked wrong whether it is or not.
                                        2. The exaggerated gait is produced by shoeing, bitting and training plus the use of action devices which cannot weigh more than 6 ounces. For a 1200lb horse, that is like a 120lb woman wearing a .6oz braclet.
                                        3. The DQP inspects every horse before it can be shown and if it is found to be out of compliance with the Horse Protection Act then they cannot show. So if a horse is in the ring, then it has been determined that the horse is not sore by a USDA regulated DQP.
                                        4. To my knowledge, there were no federal marshalls there. I have never heard of a VMO being threatened. I know they do sometimes take federal marshalls with them but it's more of a precautionary thing then necessity.
                                        Hope this helps. Ill be glad to answer any other questions you have
                                        Goodoldboy - thanks so much for your response. I believe you absolutely deserve courtesy for your williingness to post here.

                                        That said, I also believe that many of COTH posters have presented compelling and knowlegable rebuttals to the methods of producing Big Lick.

                                        But let me try here. You say Big Lick is created by a combination of:

                                        1. shoeing
                                        2. bitting
                                        3. training
                                        4. action devices

                                        Well that is fair enough. I could argue - I believe effectively - that teaching piaffe to a Grand Prix dressage horse would require some combination of the same 4 items.

                                        I would concede that sometimes - as the dressage masters have been quoted - that the use of 'action devices' are similar to 'razorblades in the hands of monkeys'. In this case, not soring - but use of draw reins or whatever - to create something that goes beyond what is within the nature of the horse to produce. Every discipline has it's own little guilty secrets, so to speak.

                                        But what I haven't been convinced of is that Big Lick abuse - as discussed here - is reserved to a small minority. Can you help me with that? In my drawn rein comparison in dressage - this is something that does not produce the same irreverisible consequences.

                                        I'd also like to add that I'm a newcomer to Kentucky and only just recently had an opportunity to ride gaited horses - TWH and RM. They are WONDERFUL horses and, given this new experience, I'd say without reservation, that riding gaited horses is an art-form of it's own.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
                                          I don't think the argument is about a difference in training methods here. It is about what is RIGHT and what is WRONG. And in my opinion, and this is MY OPINION - please read that again - MY opinion - many of the practices used to elicit the "big lick" are W-R-O-N-G. And I'm sure I am not alone.

                                          You can call me close-minded. You can call me uneducated. You can argue with me until the cows come home. I will never, ever change my opinion on this.
                                          Don't know anything about Big Lick horses--have no opinion. What I have noticed is that alot of the same perceptions, arguments, what have you in this thread are trotted out against horse racing by some of the same posters with the same vehemence.

                                          So even though I don't know anything and the posters (and yourself) may be right, my caution light is on until I learn more.

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