TWH Celebration Classes Postponed!

[Cella]

Here is a good article for those that are unfamiliar with the history, it kind of sums up the last 30 years.
http://valleyviewwalkers.com/page9.html

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=pony4me;1842495 The USDA was rejecting horses that the DQP's had passed. Part of the issue is that since both are supposed to be doing the same function and have the same guidelines and goals, why the difference in opinion between the two?

there are four or five different DQP associations around the county...some are known for not giving offenders the "wink" as they come in to be inspected ...others however, have chosen to say to the USDA on more than 1,000 occasions "you're not the boss of ME,mister USDA man"....and the commision (NHSC) has been historically one of the biggest thorns in the sides of the USDA...."Heartland's" DQP's have followed a close second...

the USDA vets do not enjoy the position they must play however they have been directed to do this by Congress...as part of the Horse Protection Act of 1973 (2???) and they are never ever given the total funds they need to accomplish the task at hand....ever thought about going to vet school to be a cop at a horse show??? <G>

anyway....there are 4,000 plus horses entered for the show this year....and about 10,000 people a nite fill the stands for 10 nites in a row....it is remarkably big business...and yes "touching up" in everything from riding barefoot on asphalt to make them road foundered to full blown chemical applications in the built ups exists every single day in every single division right down to the flat shod horses...

Tamara in TN

[atr]

Not to derail, but in some enlightened countries, pin-firing is illegal.

[Bumpkin]

When I was a teen I boarded and hung out at a TWH barn. They had the Big Lick horses and the Pleasure Walkers. I never saw a single horse abused or sored. The BL horses did have on big shoes, and although the didn't go out in the park for rides unless it was dry weather, they got daily turnout and led a pretty good life.
It is something else to sit on the back of a Big Lick Stallion and really go. Like riding on a cloud.
Guess I was lucky since it seemed to be on the up and up.

I'd be willing to bet that most responders to this thread have never even seen a "Big Lick" TWH up close. All the abuse talk is from people who are just repeating (and embellishing) what they've heard over the years. How would hunter people like it if I screamed about abuse in that world- saying ALL the horses are poled and lunged to death before their classes, and nerved when they get too sore to jump anymore. Or that ALL QH's have their tails blocked and their heads tied up or down for hours before a class. There is abuse in every discipline.

Those USDA guys can be pricks. At one show a few years back they decided that they were going to inspect the ASBs as well as the TWHs. In one instance, the USDA guy wanted to DQ an ASB because it had a scrape on it's ankle from the trailer ride. Trainer said "Don't you think if I was going to sore him, I would have done it to BOTH feet??" This is why TWHs are heavily wrapped- ALL the time. Any innocent blemish could end it's show career, even if the horse is flat shod. I have an ASB with a scar on his hind pastern from an injury as a baby- if he was a TWH and the scar was on a front foot, he'd never pass the DQP or USDA guys. If the USDA guys wanted to apply some of their "wisdom" to other disciplines, many horses of different disciplines and breeds would be DQ'ed. Got an OTTB that's been pinfired? No go. Oh, I almost forgot- don't use any liniment on your horse's legs- that's a "foreign substance" and will get you sanctioned!

I don't agree in any way with soring. I do believe that it's still done, though not to the extent it was in the past. I think that people need to reserve judgement until they research on their own the practices involved, not just by reading the sensationalistic crap put out by those opposed to ALL padded horses.

[katarine]

I've witnessed it first hand, thank you very much- at the SSH Celebration. Every horse a particular trainer presented that night, was 'fixed' in some fashion or another. The year prior, a horse he exhibited was named World Grand Champion. It's not the wannabe's, it's not the die-hards: it's all of 'em.

I own and LOFF my one little TWH/SSH: Anyone who takes part in the abuses of 'show' walkers has earned a one way ticket to hell in my book.

[katarine]

I've witnessed it first hand, thank you very much- at the SSH Celebration. Every horse a particular trainer presented that night, was 'fixed' in some fashion or another. The year prior, a horse he exhibited was named World Grand Champion. It's not the wannabe's, it's not the die-hards: it's all of 'em.

I own and LOFF my one little TWH/SSH: Anyone who takes part in the abuses of 'show' walkers has earned a one way ticket to hell in my book.

[greysandbays]

If it looks painful or uncomfortable for me to watch it, then COMMON SENSE says that it is painful or uncomfortable for the horses too.

The non-logic of this statement just boggles the mind. The pervasiveness of this non-logic throughout the human population is downright horrifying.

I have to contantly explain to neophytes that just because trimming hooves "looks painful or uncomfortable" for them to watch it, it MUST be painful or uncomortable for the horse too. Or using a twitch on a horse. That always gets 'em all queasy.

Oddly enough, these folks look right at a terrible rider who is truly causing the horse pain and discomfort and never see a thing.

So much for the infalibility of the human mind and "common sense".

Remind me to NEVER, EVER try yoga - that looks so painful and uncomfortable, there's GOTTA be something wrong with it......

[hitchinmygetalong]

Come on Greysandbays, you know what she meant. She is referring to the "big lick" horses that are snapping their knees to their noses and are wild-eyed and sweating and can barely walk. If you haven't seen it, then you need to. Many of us have seen these horses either in the flesh or on video and there is nothing pretty about it.

And equating a "bad rider" (who eventually gets off the horse's back) to a full-blown big lick horse who can't take his pads off at the end of the class is just ludicrous.

We've all been through this argument ad nauseum in the past. Take a poll of COTH members - you won't find any surprises when the vote comes in OVERWHELMINGLY, UNMISTAKABLY ANTI "Big Lick"

[greysandbays]

Come on Greysandbays, you know what she meant. She is referring to the "big lick" horses that are snapping their knees to their noses and are wild-eyed and sweating and can barely walk. If you haven't seen it, then you need to. Many of us have seen these horses either in the flesh or on video and there is nothing pretty about it.

And equating a "bad rider" (who eventually gets off the horse's back) to a full-blown big lick horse who can't take his pads off at the end of the class is just ludicrous.

We've all been through this argument ad nauseum in the past. Take a poll of COTH members - you won't find any surprises when the vote comes in OVERWHELMINGLY, UNMISTAKABLY ANTI "Big Lick"

She set her "COMMON SENSE" up as the infalible standard of whether something was "painful and uncomfortable" because of how it looked TO HER. That's not acceptable as "evidence" in any setting and is dang poor defence of an opinion as well. The only thing it's good for is chit-chat small-talk where folks are just talking to hear themselves talk with no expectation of anybody taking them seriously or even remembering what was said.

It would be no surprise that this board is "OVERWHELMINGLY, UNMISTAKABLY ANTI-" lots of stuff. Doesn't mean they're right. I noticed a long time ago that sport horse people are remarkable in their belief that anything not done exactly their way cannot possibly be correct or acceptable and that they are entitled to excersise control over same.

[Auventera Two]

I am THRILLED to know that the horse abusers are feeling the fire in their pants and are sweating under the flames. The abuse has gone on long enough, and if everyone will remember, there is a thread about this already from a few months ago with over 2,000 replies and 15,000 views. I just bumped it up for the benefit of all those contributing to this thread.

Over the last months I've written many letters and had many conversations with insiders, vets, farriers, the editors of Practical Horseman, and even a couple of big lick trainers.

The fight is worth fighting, but it is mentally and physically exhausting. I will continue to fight my fight, just like I've been doing for...what...8 months now?? I would encourage others to do the same.

I had planned to attend the Celebration but uncontrollable circumstances at home didn't allow me to.

[hitchinmygetalong]

I noticed a long time ago that sport horse people are remarkable in their belief that anything not done exactly their way cannot possibly be correct or acceptable and that they are entitled to excersise control over same.

I don't think the argument is about a difference in training methods here. It is about what is RIGHT and what is WRONG. And in my opinion, and this is MY OPINION - please read that again - MY opinion - many of the practices used to elicit the "big lick" are W-R-O-N-G. And I'm sure I am not alone.

You can call me close-minded. You can call me uneducated. You can argue with me until the cows come home. I will never, ever change my opinion on this.

[Auventera Two]

I don't think the argument is about a difference in training methods here. It is about what is RIGHT and what is WRONG. And in my opinion, and this is MY OPINION - please read that again - MY opinion - many of the practices used to elicit the "big lick" are W-R-O-N-G. And I'm sure I am not alone.

You can call me close-minded. You can call me uneducated. You can argue with me until the cows come home. I will never, ever change my opinion on this.

Ditto what hitch said. I agree 110%.

[cowgirljenn]

I'd be willing to bet that most responders to this thread have never even seen a "Big Lick" TWH up close. All the abuse talk is from people who are just repeating (and embellishing) what they've heard over the years.

First, FWIW, when I worked for an ASB trainer in the 90s, the DQPs commonly checked ASBs at the shows we went to.

I've seen many TWHs and have seen the abuse up close and personal. In fact, I once went out to see about riding for a TWH trainer who wanted someone to show his horses. When I got there, he tranq'ed the horse because 'he was too wild to ride otherwise'. Then he started telling me about the "training techniques' used to get them to pick their feet up - things HE admitted to doing. I declined that ride and declined showing for him - no way was I going to be responsible for that!

I'm not against some padding - I've had padded horses in the past. I am against the extreme padding often seen in TWH and against the abusive practices employed to get them to pick their feet up. It is rather disgusting.

[Goodoldboy]

As a walking horse trainer, it is sad to read the posts from people who think they are experts on the TWH industry because they have been to a couple of shows and been to a couple of barns. There are hundreds of training operations all across the country so going to a couple doesn't even start to show you how the industry works. This is a breed of horse that shows an animated gait from the day they are born. They are merely shod and trained to exaggerate that gait. I won't sit here and say their are not trainers who abuse their horses. But will you sit here and tell me that no other breeds are abused? These trainers are an small insignifacant part of the whole. As far as in the show ring, sure they are exerting energy and sweating, but show me a breed that doesn't. As far as this past weekend in Shelbyville, i was there and attended the trainers meetings. The issue with the USDA is that they change the rules as they go along. They are supposed to be following the same guidelines as the DQPs but they don't. Thats why people are worried they don't know what rules they are following that particular night.
And whoever said that plastic is used for soring was absolutely incorrect. It is used to protect their feet from drying out. Most of you have no idea how the industry works. If anyone would like to ask me a question feel free. But don't get on here and say what you think or have heard without knowing if its even right or not.

[greysandbays]

I don't think the argument is about a difference in training methods here. It is about what is RIGHT and what is WRONG. And in my opinion, and this is MY OPINION - please read that again - MY opinion - many of the practices used to elicit the "big lick" are W-R-O-N-G. And I'm sure I am not alone.

You can call me close-minded. You can call me uneducated. You can argue with me until the cows come home. I will never, ever change my opinion on this.

And apparently, the big lick folks are just as convinced of their rightness as you are of their wrongness. Ergo, conviction, no matter how rock-solid, isn't any better judge of matters than the "COMMON SENSE" based on how it "looks to someone" mentioned above.

[rooster]

Good Post Shakeytails!. We show flat-shod and padded complaint horses that are U.S.D.A inspected We have a successful show string, and win our share of good ribbons..I wish people wouldn't post about things that are rumor and hear-say. Yes, there were problems in the '70's and 80's, but we weren't in the Twh business, so were were not guilty. The Government has stepped in and done a great job of "cleaning-up" the industry. Maybe the U.S.D.A. men should visit some of the other breeds when they are showing, and we will see what they "discover"!

[Dispatcher]

The problem is SORING. Why is this so hard for TWH owners and riders to understand?? In the long thread TWOSIMPLE started a while ago, that's what it was all about! Nothing else. If a trainer doesn't sore then there is NO problem on how they show their horses. It's the SORING that prompts these discussions. And apparently, that practice is STILL in existence.

[rooster]

The problem is SORING. Why is this so hard for TWH owners and riders to understand?? In the long thread TWOSIMPLE started a while ago, that's what it was all about! Nothing else. If a trainer doesn't sore then there is NO problem on how they show their horses. It's the SORING that prompts these discussions. And apparently, that practice is STILL in existence.

Dispatcher,
Did it ever occur to you that the long-term use of chains for training and showing would perhaps cause "scarring" as you call it. We call it a callous and is caused by the friction of the chains against their skin.

[mrd]

And whoever said that plastic is used for soring was absolutely incorrect. It is used to protect their feet from drying out.

HUH? This makes no sense to me considering it's wrapped around the pasterns.

Each group trains it's own DQPs, so expecting the VMOs to adhere to each groups individual style of inspecting is a difficult at best. We had the USDA show up at our show in April. We had a couple of hundred horses and over 1000 entries in a 2 day show. The first night they swabbed and inspected every horse that went through DQP for about the last 10-15 classes of the evening. Except for a horse that was excused for behavioural problems that did not allow the DQP to even look at his feet, there were no tickets written and no one loaded their trailer and left. We welcome the USDA at our shows. And no wraps of any sort are allowed on a horse once they step foot on the showgrounds. But it is not a commissioned show. Not that I believe that all folks who show at commissioned shows are abusive (which I absolutely do not) I also am not naive enough to believe that some sort of fixing doesn't go on at the NWHA shows. If the powers that be choose to look the other way or DQPs are being less than ethical from pressure or bribes or whatever, then don't blame it on the government. If you truly have a sound horse, no VMO is going to be able to find issue with it.

And really wouldn't it be nice if the USDA could show up at shows where they didn't have to have federal marshals to protect them. That is ridiculous.

[Mao]

As a walking horse trainer, it is sad to read the posts from people who think they are experts on the TWH industry because they have been to a couple of shows and been to a couple of barns. There are hundreds of training operations all across the country so going to a couple doesn't even start to show you how the industry works. This is a breed of horse that shows an animated gait from the day they are born. They are merely shod and trained to exaggerate that gait. I won't sit here and say their are not trainers who abuse their horses. But will you sit here and tell me that no other breeds are abused? These trainers are an small insignifacant part of the whole. As far as in the show ring, sure they are exerting energy and sweating, but show me a breed that doesn't. As far as this past weekend in Shelbyville, i was there and attended the trainers meetings. The issue with the USDA is that they change the rules as they go along. They are supposed to be following the same guidelines as the DQPs but they don't. Thats why people are worried they don't know what rules they are following that particular night.
And whoever said that plastic is used for soring was absolutely incorrect. It is used to protect their feet from drying out. Most of you have no idea how the industry works. If anyone would like to ask me a question feel free. But don't get on here and say what you think or have heard without knowing if its even right or not.

Goodoldboy - kudos to you for your willingness to put your feet in fire - so to speak - as an industry insider of the Big Lick shows.

And no offense - but no discipline is exempt from scrutiny for cruelty and abuse by a jury of their peers. At least as long as we live in America, right?

And so, given this passionate outcry against Big Lick - from a group of truly sophisticated and broad-based equestrians from a variety of backgrounds - can you further articulate your defense of Big Lick.

Nobody appreciates government intervention. No quarrels there. But aside from bureaucratic ineptitude - I'd like to know why - asking in a most sincere manner - as a novice to your sport:

1) why the Big Lick horses appear so unsound and unnatural
2) what is the extent of artificial means to produce the Big Lick
3) how is the line drawn between artificial enhancement and abuse and who decides.
4) why does the USDA needed federal protection to intervene at the Celebration

Thank you again for posting and I look forward - sincerely and with a hopefully open mind - to your responses.