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TWH Celebration Classes Postponed!

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  • [quote=Mattn10ec;1852074]I could care less if they use it....They have found nothing that can be proven to be a soring agent.

    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/hp/mass...ults4-2006.pdf fuel oil

    And you are dead wrong..they have found it at a "sound" show
    I suggest you contact Dr. Behre. Not too long ago he commented about the Sniffer results and he said that no foreign substances were found with the sniffer at Fosh or NWHA shows.

    in fact a well known, charter member of a "sound horse" organization was found to have his horse on "blocks" just a few weeks back
    The incident you are talking about was at the International Horse Show another show serviced by the NHSC DQPs not by Fosh or NWHA DQPs.

    Dee

    Comment


    • Sorry, Matt. But I've looked up (most) of your claims and almost all of the ones being disputed are correct as the other posters claim they are. Please double check your "facts" before you post them b/c you're just doing your arguments more harm than good. And those are beautiful foals!
      *Finally returned from the dead.*
      One man's wrong lead is another man's counter-canter.
      - S.D. Price

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        I have now been mis-quoted (or, more accurately, misinterpreted) twice in this thread, and I just want to clear that up. I wrote that the Big Lick *industry* is abusive - I did NOT say that all trainers are abusive, that all owners are, or that all horses who are shown are sored - I was talking about the industry, which is a whole diffferent ball game than individuals.

        Again and again in these threads, the "pro" Big Lick argument is that those of us who are "anti" Big Lick are uneducated, uninformed, or just plain stupid. Most of us have explained our background in relation to the industry. We DO know what we're talking about, whether you choose to agree with us or not. I've been around it all my life, and I deal with people in the TWH industry almost every single day. In fact, I was just in a conversation today with a handful of local TWH riders/competitors, some who enjoy padded horses, some who show lite shod, and some who trail ride. It's my understanding that pressure shoeing is becoming more commonplace than soring, since it is harder to detect and prove. I don't know HOW common it is yet, but this was the general concensus.

        Comment


        • Jumpers Vs. Padded Walkers

          Originally posted by RugBug View Post
          Since when is jumping not natural? Horses will jump out in pasture (they also run...fast). And nothing anyone does will make a horse who doesn't want to jump go over that fence. Do you see big lick in a pasture on a horse that doesn't have the pads and action devices? No one has been able to show me a picture or video of one yet. I've seen pictures of young horses in pasture doing their distinctive gaits, but not the big lick. It's artificial and man made. And quite honestly, sad.
          Yes. Tennessee Walking Horses must have the natural, god given gait to start with before the it can be enhanced by pads and action devices. It’s those horses who don’t have it to start with that are unfortunately subjected to soring to attempt to get a gait that isn’t there.

          Isn’t us riding horses man made? The horses true, diverse, natural state of being is no human care, no shoes, no bridles, no saddles, no vet care, nothing. Just running wild and free. THAT is a horse’s natural state. Isn’t it sad we don’t allow them to be free? Some may, and do, say so.

          Also, to compare jumping horses to walking horses on pads. Your jumping horse, when he clears a jump, has it’s weight, plus the weight of the rider and saddle, crashing down on one foot whereas during the Walking horse’s gait (which btw is no where near a diagonal trot), two feet are ALWAYS on the ground.

          Most of our padded horses shows way into their 30s without any problems of being on pads.
          - owner, and exhibitor of the Racking Horse & Tennessee Walking Horse
          - supporter and lover of the peformance twh horse

          Comment


          • pressure shoeing

            Originally posted by Montanas_Girl View Post
            I It's my understanding that pressure shoeing is becoming more commonplace than soring, since it is harder to detect and prove.
            And pressure shoeing, in my opinion, will be come even more widespread if pads are done away with, because an industry will be stripped of a performance, sound athlete and many will want to push the flat shod horses into the gait that the padded horses do, which, a flat shod horse can be ridden into a big lick, if the rider puts the miles and time into the horse.

            If you think padded horses see the bulk of pressure shoeing and soring, your wrong. Padded horses are some of the most well-cared for, most sound horses you will ever see in the ring. Some like the way they move, some don’t. Different strokes for different folks but it always gets me when someone sees something different, it must be wrong.

            Pressure shoeing is also alive and well in many other gaited breeds (no, I'm not trying to differ away from the walker) but just stating a fact.
            Last edited by walkinon; Sep. 1, 2006, 12:26 AM. Reason: rewrote a phrase
            - owner, and exhibitor of the Racking Horse & Tennessee Walking Horse
            - supporter and lover of the peformance twh horse

            Comment


            • Originally posted by easygaiting View Post

              I suggest you contact Dr. Behre. Not too long ago he commented about the Sniffer results and he said that no foreign substances were found with the sniffer at Fosh or NWHA shows.
              I can recall about two years ago, at the FOSH international (I think that was the name of those show), the flag horse for the opening ceremony was written up for HPA violations.
              - owner, and exhibitor of the Racking Horse & Tennessee Walking Horse
              - supporter and lover of the peformance twh horse

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Parysa View Post
                Sorry, Matt. But I've looked up (most) of your claims and almost all of the ones being disputed are correct as the other posters claim they are. Please double check your "facts" before you post them b/c you're just doing your arguments more harm than good. And those are beautiful foals!
                It also makes a person untrustworthy as a resource.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by easygaiting View Post
                  My comment was about 2 year olds having to wear 5 pounds of garbage strapped to their hooves, not about what age a horse is put into service, that is a whole nother hot topic.

                  I do disaprove of racing young horses but that is not what this thread is about.

                  Dee
                  I apologize for misunderstanding. But, like I said earlier, to a 1000 lb animal, what is 5 pounds anyway? That's less than the weight of a saddle. And when I asked earlier how much an average horse shoe weighs, I was genuinely curious. I tried to google it but didn't get any results. Does anyone know?
                  *Finally returned from the dead.*
                  One man's wrong lead is another man's counter-canter.
                  - S.D. Price

                  Comment


                  • (Anyone else feel like we're playing tag-team wrestling here? One leaves and another appears. Hmmmmmm.)

                    Originally posted by walkinon View Post
                    Yes. Tennessee Walking Horses must have the natural, god given gait to start with before the it can be enhanced by pads and action devices.
                    Why does it need to be "enhanced" to begin with?

                    It’s those horses who don’t have it to start with that are unfortunately subjected to soring to attempt to get a gait that isn’t there.
                    So, soring does exist.

                    Isn’t us riding horses man made? The horses true, diverse, natural state of being is no human care, no shoes, no bridles, no saddles, no vet care, nothing. Just running wild and free. THAT is a horse’s natural state. Isn’t it sad we don’t allow them to be free? Some may, and do, say so.
                    Well, following that logic, there shouldn't be a domestic dog or a cow in the barn, either. But okay, I see your point.

                    Also, to compare jumping horses to walking horses on pads. Your jumping horse, when he clears a jump, has it’s weight, plus the weight of the rider and saddle, crashing down on one foot whereas during the Walking horse’s gait (which btw is no where near a diagonal trot), two feet are ALWAYS on the ground.
                    One foot? Horses land on one foot when they jump?

                    Most of our padded horses shows way into their 30s without any problems of being on pads.
                    Interesting statistic. MOST show into "way into their 30s"??? Can you back that up with facts? I thought someone else said 20's. I'm confused.
                    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Parysa View Post
                      I apologize for misunderstanding. But, like I said earlier, to a 1000 lb animal, what is 5 pounds anyway? That's less than the weight of a saddle. And when I asked earlier how much an average horse shoe weighs, I was genuinely curious. I tried to google it but didn't get any results. Does anyone know?
                      5 pounds is 1/2 of one percent of the weight of a 1000 pound animal.

                      Assuming you weigh 120 pounds, that would equate to you hanging a little over 1/2 pound (two sticks of butter) of whatever off a fingernail. Doesn't sound like much until you try it.

                      And yes, 5 pounds is less than the weight of a saddle. But a saddle is on a horse's back, not hanging off its foot.
                      "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mattn10ec View Post
                        Once agin you are spreading lies...I dare you to go to a show and measure any padded horse that comes thru and see what the heel measurement is. there is a toe length max on the padde horses...nothing is allowed over 4 inches at the heel. NOTHING. I am a vet tech and a full time FARRIER..... I think I know "the rules"
                        I think you need to stop calling me the liar, here are the rules concerning shoeing copied and pasted straight from the APHIS site...

                        I know the regulations like the back of my hand so please stop posting misinformation to these people.

                        § 11.2 Prohibitions concerning exhibitors: Back to Index
                        (a) General prohibitions.
                        Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (b) of this section, no chain, boot, roller, collar, action device, nor any other device, method, practice, or substance shall be used with respect to any horse at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction if such use causes or can reasonably be expected to cause such horse to be sore.
                        (b) Specific prohibitions. The use of any of the following devices, equipment, or practices on any horse at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction is prohibited:
                        (1) All beads, bangles, rollers, and similar devices, with the exception of rollers made of lignum vitae (hardwood), aluminum, or stainless steel, with individual rollers of uniform size, weight and configuration, provided each such device may not weigh more than 6 ounces, including the weight of the fastener.
                        (2) Chains weighing more than 6 ounces each, including the weight of the fastener.
                        (3) Chains with links that are not of uniform size, weight and configuration; and, chains that have twisted links or double links.
                        (4) Chains that have drop links on any horse that is being ridden, worked on a lead, or otherwise worked out or moved about.
                        (5) More than one action device on any one limb of a horse.
                        (6) Chains or lignum vitae, stainless steel, or aluminum rollers which are not smooth and free of protrusions, projections, rust, corrosion, or rough or sharp edges.
                        (7)(i) Boots, collars, or any other devices, with protrusions or swellings, or rigid, rough, or sharp edges, seams or any other abrasive or abusive surface that may contact a horse's leg; and
                        (ii) Boots, collars, or any other devices that weigh more than 6 ounces, except for soft rubber or soft leather bell boots and quarter boots that are used as protective devices.
                        (8) Pads or other devices on yearling horses (horses up to 2 years old) that elevate or change the angle of such horses' hooves in excess of 1 inch at the heel.
                        (9) Any weight on yearling horses, except a keg or similar conventional horseshoe, and any horseshoe on yearling horses that weighs more than 16 ounces.
                        (10) Artificial extension of the toe length, whether accomplished with pads, acrylics or any other material or combinations thereof, that exceeds 50 percent of the natural hoof length, as measured from the coronet band, at the center of the front pastern along the front of the hoof wall, to the distal portion of the hoof wall at the tip of the toe. The artificial extension shall be measured from the distal portion of the hoof wall at the tip of the toe at a 90 degree angle to the proximal (foot/hoof) surface of the shoe.
                        (11) Toe length that does not exceed the height of the heel by 1 inch or more. The length of the toe shall be measured from the coronet band, at the center of the front pastern along the front of the hoof wall to the ground. The heel shall be measured from the coronet band, at the most lateral portion of the rear pastern, at a 90 degree angle to the ground, not including normal caulks at the rear of a horseshoe that do not exceed 3/4 inch in length. That portion of caulk at the rear of a horseshoe in excess of 3/4 of an inch shall be added to the height of the heel in determining the heel/toe ratio.
                        (12) Pads that are not made of leather, plastic, or a similar pliant material.
                        (13) Any object or material inserted between the pad and the hoof other than acceptable hoof packing, which includes pine tar, oakum, live rubber, sponge rubber, silicone, commercial hoof packing or other substances used to maintain adequate frog pressure or sole consistency.
                        (14) Single or double rocker-bars on the bottom surface of horseshoes which extend more than 1 1/2 inches back from the point of the toe, or which would cause, or could reasonably be expected to cause, an unsteadiness of stance in the horse with resulting muscle and tendon strain due to the horse's weight and balance being focused upon a small fulcrum point. 2
                        2 This prohibition is not intended to disallow corrective devices, such as Memphis bars which consist of a metal bar(s) crossing from the ground surface of one side of the horseshoe to the ground surface of the other side of the horseshoe, and the purpose of which is to correct a lameness or pathological condition of the foot: Provided, That such metal bar(s) do not act as a single fulcrum point so as to affect the balance of the horse.
                        Last edited by easygaiting; Sep. 1, 2006, 07:38 AM. Reason: html code embedded

                        Comment


                        • Well, since I do not have the internet at home, I always have to wait until I get to work to read the good ones...

                          Matt10 or whomever you are...methinks you didn't have enough of the general classes at your "vet school" as your posts are consistently hard to read...nevertheless, I digress....

                          The utter and complete POO that has been your posts has made me wince. For the record...

                          Most Grand Prix horses are (on average) 8 yrs old and OLDER. Some of the best ones are in their TEENS, some of them LATE TEENS. These horses are brought along slowly. And WHO is THE WORLD was it that said jumpers were SORED so they wouldn't hit rails??????????????????? NOOOOWWW you are truly reaching for ideas....because these horses are kept out of the show ring if they are even SLIGHTLY lame. Some people do drug their horses...and they eventually get caught. The USEF drug testers are there outside the ring of the big horseshows waiting on the winners. The famous Popeye K, who I mentioned before...is 12 or 13.
                          A few of the younger kids at a neighboring barn are showing horses that are well over 20 yrs old...and they do 3' courses every weekend. MY OWN horse is 14, and he is sound as a bell. And GUESS WHAT??? He is an EX RACEHORSE!!! Who ran 54 RACES. He is clean legged, and very quiet, even being cut late, at 7 or 8. He shows, trail rides, and fox hunts. He is VERY brave and pulls me TO the jumps. He is a very happy horse, he is outside 14 or more hours a day, and takes off at a gallop to join his buddies every evening...after having his carrot, of course.
                          The act of jumping for any horse is a natural variation of their canter stride. Actually, after watching the Champagne video, my first thought was, WOW...that canter is FANTASTIC...I bet that horse could jump EASILY! TWH are wonderful, beautiful horses - I have ridden several - and those pictures of the foals you posted - well, you just went and ruined your "support" of padded horses....according to those pics (the foal with the white, especially, LOVE THAT ONE)...you don't NEED those pads...because that trait is bred into them...
                          So I will continue to enjoy the smooth, rocking horse feeling of my TB's canter holding on to my rubber snaffle and you can enjoy pulling the 6" shank of a curb and lurching back and forth as your stacked horse ATTEMPTS to canter...no problem.
                          And just for the record...there are a few TWH JUMPERS out there....and they are VERY competitive!
                          My boys...
                          http://community.webshots.com/user/FirstStepBack
                          RIP Gem...for you are the greatest...thank you for the inspiration...I will always remember you!
                          Gem Twist (1979-2006)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by walkinon View Post
                            I can recall about two years ago, at the FOSH international (I think that was the name of those show), the flag horse for the opening ceremony was written up for HPA violations.
                            No, it wasn't Fosh it was at a NWHA championship show. I never said they haven't ever written violations, my comment was about the sniffer. Unfortunately every once in a while some sore jerk tries to show their horses at our sound shows, best we can do is catch their ass, punish them and tell them to never come back.

                            Dee

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Parysa View Post
                              I apologize for misunderstanding. But, like I said earlier, to a 1000 lb animal, what is 5 pounds anyway? That's less than the weight of a saddle. And when I asked earlier how much an average horse shoe weighs, I was genuinely curious. I tried to google it but didn't get any results. Does anyone know?
                              My St Croix shoes weigh around 12 oz. for a number 1.
                              http://www.stcroixforge.com/ they have weights for different style shoes here

                              5 pounds is a lot of weight when it is at the end of the hoof being flung around. You need to remember that the bones in the leg are held together with just tendons and ligaments and it is those tendons and ligaments that become stressed when overloaded. I have a study somewhere if I can find it which was about adding weight to the hooves that I will post when I get back from erands this morning. It was really interesting to read.

                              Dee

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by walkinon View Post
                                It’s those horses who don’t have it to start with that are unfortunately subjected to soring to attempt to get a gait that isn’t there.
                                Not really, the culls of the big lick industry are often the walking horses that can do the signature gait of the breed, the runningwalk.

                                The big lick needs a pacey horse and if they don't pace naturally they try to force them into a pace and then they put the 5 pounds plus on the hooves. A naturally runningwalk horse will square up too much if you put weight on it.

                                I will agree though that in the flat shod divisions there are horses that people sore to take them from pacey to square.

                                Most of our padded horses shows way into their 30s without any problems of being on pads.
                                MOST is a huge, huge exaggeration.

                                Dee

                                Comment


                                • [quote=hitchinmygetalong;1852535](Anyone else feel like we're playing tag-team wrestling here? One leaves and another appears. Hmmmmmm.)

                                  An S.O.S by a person who has posted on this thread was put out on one of the Big Lick lists. LOL

                                  Dee

                                  Comment


                                  • [QUOTE=mayhew;1852049][QUOTE=Mattn10ec;1851723]If these "scars" are so obvuous and grotesque why does it take 30-40 minutes and several USDA inspectors using magnifying glasses and a fine toothed comb to find them??

                                    if the soring is so bad and horrific why is the scrs so hard to find??

                                    So then it is okay? So long as you smack your wife without leaving a bruise it isn't abuse?
                                    Not the same thing at all. If you are getting a ticket for a scar, then a scar should be able to be seen, not just "well, I think he's sored" If they think a horse is sore, write the appropriate ticket, not a scar ticket..
                                    http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

                                    She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by StefffiC View Post
                                      Chains aren't put on the cannon. If you had the knowledge you claim you would know that.

                                      Steph
                                      The chains are placed around the ankles. When the horse is "hitting a lick" the chains fly up in the air and bang the horse on the cannon bones. Don't try to deny it, please. I am looking at photos right now on my computer that CLEARLY show the chains beating the horse's ankles AND lower portion of the canon bones.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Mattn10ec View Post
                                        Well..I just left a HUGE post about my experience with the Tennessee Walking horse as a outsider hell bent on exposing the neglect and abuse only to find it HIGHLY exaggerated and hyped up.

                                        Here is somehting to ponder.

                                        Why is it the hunter jumpers can be forced to jumo high rails and water obstacles...that isnt normal or natural..yet the USDA does nothing to them.

                                        Why is it thouroughbreds can be forced to run until their bones crumble and hearts explode...that sint natural, and yet the USDA desont bother them.
                                        To date this year alone.... over 4,000 race horses have doed or been out down due to race related accidents.

                                        How come the life span of a common, average race hors ie 4 years max...and then they are slaughtered.

                                        The USDA sees nothing wrong with this..it isnt natura...ad yet theUSDA looks the other way.

                                        WHy can ASB's, Hackneys, and other trotting breeds can artificaially enahnce their gaits using the same things the Walking horse trainers use and nothing is said....the USDA doesnt even come to their shows...

                                        Why is it that you see 20-30 year old padded horses showing every weekend in Tennessee...over 25 last night at the Celebration over 20 years old alne and never see a 20 year old race horse or jumper??

                                        Why is it thatbthe terrible abuse is sohard to find that it takes 7 USDA inspectors 30-40 minutes using a fine toothed comb...literally.... and 7 men poking and prodding and digging with their finger nails to find the scars that you guys say are so apparent and easily seen???

                                        From reading the posts on this thread it is apparent that many just told outright lies based on the misinformatin the FOSH and anti padded horses people have been spewing using 30 year old archives and claimed they were current day practices.

                                        The ignorance and outright stupidity of some of the anti padded posters on thsi thread is apalling and sickening.
                                        Some of these things probably SHOULD be regulated! And as the point has been made 10,000 times already - abuse in other disciplines should in NO WAY constitute an EXUSE to allow it to happen to big lick horses!!

                                        For the record - I DO NOT SUPPORT HORSE RACING IN ANY FASHION. And also I have strong feeling against horses who regularly jump in excess of 4 feet. Certain things people do with horses is just plain dumb. I don't believe the bits or shoes should be mandated in ANY discipline. I don't support slaughter houses. And the list goes on and on.

                                        But the topic of this thread is BIG LICK ABUSE. Not jumpers or racing abuse or slaughter houses. If you want to discuss those issues, please start a new thread.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by easygaiting View Post
                                          Some of the trainers were out of control as well as some bystanders. There was multiple arguments going on between trainers and between some trainers and the WHTA/Celebration officials.... and some people in the stands were yelling to block the entrance and some people did. Didn't make any difference as they canceled the impending classes anyway.

                                          I can't remember if this was Fri night or Sat morning.

                                          None the less, pretty unprofessional and unsportsman like.

                                          Dee
                                          I'm sure there were a few flared tempers on BOTH the trainer's and VMO/DQP sides.
                                          Devil Pup 13 May 2010
                                          Veni, vidi, nates calce concidi
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