Genuine Question on Slaughter - Please No Flamethrowers

[MSP]

One of the things that concerns me with the horse slaughter issue is the prospect of increasing regulation (and decreasing availability) of medicines, wormers etc for our horses due to concerns over the possibility of human consumption.

Me too. I fear that the anti-slaughter people's campaigns of 'do you know what's in that horsemeat you just ate?' are going to translate into increased regulations for all of us who own horses - what we can give, when, how our records are kept, etc. And honestly, I'm an educated person who takes great time to make the best possible decisions for my horses. I don't want some government bureaucrat who has never actually touched a horse telling me what I can and cannot do as far as my horses' health care.

Actually if horse slaughter continues and NAIS is implemented you have a lot to fear because NAIS will make it possible to track medication and wormer should they want to; it may benefit the horse meat trade. After all if horses weren’t being slaughtered what possible reason would there be for regulating what drugs go into their bodies.

[JSwan]

MSP - Get ahold of LuvmyTb's - she said she needed to brush up on NAIS and I referred her to you since I have no credibility with the anti-slaughter folks.

Actually - why are we still arguing about this? Isn't that Bill a done deal? That's what I'm reading from Gail. But the policy advisor I speak with is not certain it will make it out of committee. What's the deal?

Gotta take exception with what another poster said about breeding - I don't know what "quality" horse means - I have quality horses that are throwaways and auction bound. I know lots of people with grade horses that are the light of their lives, even a lady who took her homebred to GP in dressage after eventing to Prelim on her - they moved to Texas and I lost track of her but the horse was a draft cross - one of those instances in which the horse turned out to be exceptional.

Exactly what is a "quality" horse? The TB's at slaughter have impeccable pedigrees, for example. Is it the price tag? Are cheap horses not "quality"?

[MSP]

It isn’t over until the fat lady sings! I think the battle has only just begun; they are not going to throw in the towel and walk away even if we get a majority vote. Doesn’t the Bill still need to go through the senate?

Don’t forget that the Kaufman plant has been ordered to close by the Kaufman Zoning Board. Dallas Crown, Inc. horse slaughter plant is to cease its operations on or before September 30, 2006. Of course they are fighting it so it remains too be seen if they will shut down.

[JSwan]

Tell ya what, MSP. I'm fat as a tick, and in my youth had aspirations to be the next Maria Callas. (I'm an alto - but what the heck - aim high, right?)

You let me know when it's time to warm up, and I'll give slaughter its official swan song. Get it? JSwan? Swan song? I'm so funny.

Seems like it was going the way of the dodo anyway - but I'm still peeved none of y'all had answers to some very very excellent questions. I'll get over it - I feel a hot flash coming on. After it ebbs, I'll cry and that will even things out.

It isn’t over until the fat lady sings! I think the battle has only just begun; they are not going to throw in the towel and walk away even if we get a majority vote. Doesn’t the Bill still need to go through the senate?

Don’t forget that the Kaufman plant has been ordered to close by the Kaufman Zoning Board. Dallas Crown, Inc. horse slaughter plant is to cease its operations on or before September 30, 2006. Of course they are fighting it so it remains too be seen if they will shut down.

[onthebit12000]

Actually if horse slaughter continues and NAIS is implemented you have a lot to fear because NAIS will make it possible to track medication and wormer should they want to; it may benefit the horse meat trade. After all if horses weren’t being slaughtered what possible reason would there be for regulating what drugs go into their bodies.

MSP is 100% right! The Gov't inclusion of horses into their NAIS food animal program is just the beginning of our horses becoming officially regulated as a food animal. The US export of horsemeat for human consumption, is the reason that our gov't has caved into EU pressure and has incorporated horses into NAIS.

Kind of amazing to me has always been that the people who support horse slaughter are always expressing concern that if horse slaughter were banned, it would be a step towards reclassifying them as something other than livestock. The real worry here should be that the gov't is already trying to reclassify them...as a REGULATED FOOD-PRODUCING ANIMAL.

As long as the plants are exporting horsemeat for human consumption, we stand absolutely NO chance of our horses being excluded from NAIS.

Why do you think that the vets and AQHA, Jockey Club and other breed orgs are so gun-ho pro-NAIS??? Check out who reaps the benefit of implementing and maintaining these programs in the EU and UK...yep..you guessed it...the breed groups and vets!

Boy-oh-boy....the vets are just salivating at the thought of having complete control over dispensing meds and supplements that we horse owners can currently purchase without their input or assistance! They are gonna be rich, rich, rich...like never before.

And so now you know (as Paul Harvey would say).... "The rest of the story".

[onthebit12000]

JSwan,

The sponsors of HR 503 have been promised a vote on the House Floor before the August recess. The vote will come sometime between July10th and July 31st.

MSP,

Yes, once the bill passes the House, it will then also need to be passed by the Senate.

[onthebit12000]

Where do these 65,000 horses a year come from?
Is the slaughter industry not a symptom of the problem. Until you address the issue of why there are so many apparently unwanted horses that are willingly being sold to slaughter there will always be an issue. The slaughter industry is just trying to make a profit from what YOUR industry is discarding everyone is so concerned about the horses then how about some legislation that if you breed it you are responsible for it until the day a vet verifies that it can be humanely put down.And only a written contract can allow change of ownership and its associated responsibilities.This is like blaming the scrap man cause your car rusts out.

Well, at least 20,000 to 30,000 of them are imported from Canada for slaughter in the US each and every year.

Question...If we have so many "unwanted" horses in the US, why do the 3 US horse slaughter plants have to IMPORT them from Canada?

Funny how the number of so-called "unwanted" horses corresponds directly to what the current overseas demand for horsemeat is.

The horse slaughter industry is simply and industry that is supplying a demand whether it be 300,000 horses per year or 40,000.

[JSwan]

No it isn't. I hate NAIS as much as the next person - but it's simply a tracking system on lots of steroids, with several very well positioned companies standing to make millions and millions off our terrorist chickens, bird flu hysteria, etc. Geez - the technology isn't even tamper proof.

It's just a system designed to track outbreaks of disease in order to isolate that disease and contain it. There are lot of little gov't programs like that - including ones for humans. Reads like a bad sci-fi novel, some of those things.

Yes, there are lots of politics involved, and Glanders is being used as an excuse as well as other diseases. Bit of a reach - and the equine working group is telling horse owners that we won't have to submit to the same requirements as other livestock owners - but what's happening in Wisconsin disproves that little assertion, doesn't it.

I spoke with Dr. Beeman about NAIS - and though I am still very much opposed to it for many reasons that are not all horse related, and I have NO love for the USDA - I just have to disagree with your assessment.

There is an equine working group for NAIS - every species as their own little group. There is no vasy conspiracy to seal the fate of horses in the US - geez - states are even requiring dogs and cats to be microchipped and their information about them and their owners placed into a database for tracking and billing.

I'd say we're all being screwed by NAIS, but it's not a slaughter thing.

MSP is 100% right! The Gov't inclusion of horses into their NAIS food animal program is just the beginning of our horses becoming officially regulated as a food animal. The US export of horsemeat for human consumption, is the reason that our gov't has caved into EU pressure and has incorporated horses into NAIS.

Kind of amazing to me has always been that the people who support horse slaughter are always expressing concern that if horse slaughter were banned, it would be a step towards reclassifying them as something other than livestock. The real worry here should be that the gov't is already trying to reclassify them...as a REGULATED FOOD-PRODUCING ANIMAL.

As long as the plants are exporting horsemeat for human consumption, we stand absolutely NO chance of our horses being excluded from NAIS.

Why do you think that the vets and AQHA, Jockey Club and other breed orgs are so gun-ho pro-NAIS??? Check out who reaps the benefit of implementing and maintaining these programs in the EU and UK...yep..you guessed it...the breed groups and vets!

Boy-oh-boy....the vets are just salivating at the thought of having complete control over dispensing meds and supplements that we horse owners can currently purchase without their input or assistance! They are gonna be rich, rich, rich...like never before.

And so now you know (as Paul Harvey would say).... "The rest of the story".

[JSwan]

Thanks - I read that in your other thread and then the guy I deal with on ag issues said he wasn't sure it would make it out of committee. So I was just confused - didn't intend to imply anything.

JSwan,

The sponsors of HR 503 have been promised a vote on the House Floor before the August recess. The vote will come sometime between July10th and July 31st.

MSP,

Yes, once the bill passes the House, it will then also need to be passed by the Senate.

[onthebit12000]

JSwan,

You might want to do some research into the UK and Canadian Equine ID plans before you come to any final conclusion.

Both the UK and Canadian govt's have at least been honest with their citizens and openly admit that their ID plans are a result of EU pressure to include horses because the meat is imported for human consumption.

The US knows full well that Americans would never stand for their horses to be regulated as a food animal, so they put their usual spin on this ridiculous plan and cast it as a "disease tracking" mechanism. Yes, partially true enough, it could perhaps aide in disease traceback, but the real reason is that they need a mechanism to control the drugs that are ingested by horses who *might* end up in the food chain.

Check out the following links...Equine ID is a GLOBAL endeavor. It is expressly being implemented to ensure the safety of horsemeat that is consumed by humans.

UK Horse Passports Scheme
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/trac...horses_q&a.htm

Canadian Equine ID Program
http://www.equestrian.ca/EquineCanad...ram/index.html

UK Compulsory Microchips On The Way
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/....php?aid=69932

UK Passports Issuing Agencies
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/trac...sepassport.htm


http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...m?id=321652002
Professor Love, who is president of the British Equine Veterinary Association, said it backed the move because it could prevent the spread of contagious diseases. "In my personal view it would not be a bad thing if the trade in horse for human consumption is stopped.

French diet demands horse passports
TOBY McDONALD (2002 article)

SCOTLAND'S 250,000 horse population is to be electronically tagged to ensure their meat is fit to serve on Continental dinner tables.

About £1m worth of British horse flesh is sold abroad every year for human consumption, but French officials are horrified by the importation of mares and stallions which have been given medicine that could make them unfit to eat.

The Scottish Executive has confirmed that all horses north of the Border will be covered by EU regulations which control the transport of cows, sheep and pigs to the Continent.

It will mean every horse being fitted with a microchip and issued with its own passport. Owners face bills of up to £100 per animal to provide the passport, listing any past illnesses and medication taken.

Yesterday a senior vet warned that thousands of horse owners would refuse to comply unless they received government subsidies.

Professor Sandy Love, head of the equine welfare and sports horse injuries unit at Glasgow University, said: "The cost of farm animal passports was funded by government at a cost of millions, and has been sustained by government funding.

"But the horse is perceived to be a luxury item owned by a particular socio-economic group. I don't think that is the reality, however."

In February, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs minister Alun Michael said that passports would be introduced in England and Wales by December 2003. The Scottish Executive has now confirmed it will follow suit.

The British Equestrian Federation has been asked to devise a scheme and will issue details next month.

Professor Love, who is president of the British Equine Veterinary Association, said it backed the move because it could prevent the spread of contagious diseases. "In my personal view it would not be a bad thing if the trade in horse for human consumption is stopped.

"But there are good spin-offs from the passport idea. At the moment we don't know how many horses there are, where they are or who owns them, and the first step to have proper control in the health and disease among animals would be knowing where they are."

Yesterday a spokesman for the Scottish Executive said: "We wholeheartedly endorse the principles of this regulation and what it is trying to achieve."

He said the cost would be less than £100, although no final figure had been agreed.
************************************************** ******
Isnt it amazing that all these other gov'ts are telling it like it is, and our gov't is using the old "disease tracking" spin in order to get us to comply!!

JSwan, if horses are to continue to be part of the human food chain, they are going to have to be regulated as such. I know you oppose NAIS, and if you really want our equine industry to stand a fighting chance to exclude our horses from NAIS, you might want to consider joining our efforts to close the the 3 US horse slaughter plants that are exporting the meat for human consumption.

Gail

[breakthru]

"quality" horses...

JSwan- I don't know/can't remember/didn't take the time to look for what which poster referred to as quality horses, but here's how I think of it:

Alot, and I mean ALOT of people are breeding irresponsibly. Just for the heck of it. They're breeding horses that don't have alot of potential to do much of anything, and they're glutting the horse market. Now, I'm not arguing that someone's homebred pedigree-less horse is inherently worth less than an expensive pedigreed warmblood, or even an OTTB; but the odds of these horses finding happy homes are certainly slim with respect to horses that were bred responsibly. My understanding of a "quality" horse is a horse that came from somewhere that bred it for a specific purpose, and not just for the heck of it, to make a buck, whatever.

It's my hope that if horse slaughter went under in the US, people would stop irresponsible breeding. Irresponsible breeding sends all kinds of horses to slaughter, both "quality" horses and otherwise. There are only so many homes out there, and while I do think that many horses can be "absorbed"- I do think there's a limit.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and hypothesize that it would be a great thing for the horse industry if horse slaughter were banned- presuming stopping of irresponsible breeding of horses in this country were a result. At least as far as OTTBs are concerned, if there were fewer horses bred just for the heck of it, the tens of thousands of thoroughbreds that will be bred for racing regardless, and that will fail at racing regardless, and will need a new home regardless, will have greater odds of finding a happy new life.


(edited for grammar)

[luvmytbs]

MSP - Get ahold of LuvmyTb's - she said she needed to brush up on NAIS and I referred her to you since I have no credibility with the anti-slaughter folks.

Actually J Swan, you are one of the anti-anti folks I truely respect, for your arguments are valid and I do consider what you add to any discussion.
I have started to read up on the NAIS issue as per your suggestion, and will admit, that I was not educated about it, because I haven't bothered to look at its implications.
So thanks for steering me in the right direction.

Exactly what is a "quality" horse? The TB's at slaughter have impeccable pedigrees, for example. Is it the price tag? Are cheap horses not "quality"?

To me quality equals marketability. (is that a word?)
For instance, when paints became fashionable, a lot of breeders started breeding paints. Some of them, not knowing what they were doing, ended up with what I call paintless paints (just plain sorrel for instance). Unfortunately you see a lot of them at auctions.
A friend of mine has four of those, all from the auction, she couldn't stand those horses, which were trained and sweet, getting "liquidated" because they didn't "turn out right".

[Sannois]

OMG

All this stuff makes my head hurt!

[JSwan]

Don't mean to turn this into a NAIS discussion - but I think we all need to realize one thing. It galls me to say this but I'm going to do it anyway.

NAIS is a done deal and it's being implemented right now. If you live in Wisconsin - I truly pity you. For all the complaints about ranching interests and slaughter - there is a loud voice in Texas that is being heard on NAIS - you guessed it - many of them cattle producers. Actually - there was a lady we haven't heard from in a while - Gisella?? who was fighting pretty hard against NAIS - in Texas - and had done a great deal.

I appreciate the information from Gail - but you know - the concept of NAIS has been around for many years - the passport system in Europe is also nothing new - what changed was the technology and public apathy.

Add to that this lovely global economy we have - and voila - bird flu and BSE hysteria and soccer moms clucking about their children demanding the government "do something".

So the concept and premises registration is happening right now - regardless of one's work on slaughter issues, humane transport, etc. There have been cases of localities registering premises without landowners permission - and calling it "voluntary".

I am more concerned about two phrases in the current legislation having grave consequences for the horse industry than I am NAIS. Whether horses remain part of the food chain or not - the microchips will still be required for import of horses, export of horses (sale horses, int'l competitions, etc).

Horses, for better or worse, will not be excluded from NAIS. It's done. And eventually pets will be included.

How they are tracked, and what that means for horse sales of riding horses, travel, trail riding, etc has not been ironed out yet.

The American Horse Council website could provide some "info" - it links to the equine working group - and they are trying to make the horse industry heard on the nitty gritty details of NAIS.

But sorry folks - while you're weren't looking you got screwed - and you didn't even get dinner out of it.

[Susan P]

All this stuff makes my head hurt!

Ditto!

[JSwan]

You're welcome. But I like grade horses, crosses - but not magikal ones with kohlrabi sticks.

I'll take a backyard bred cross any day over an OTTB or 25K WB with a fancy pedigree. Done both - not impressed. They break legs just like grade horses.

Just bought a yearling who appears to have a head that made be a world record breaker. He's a walking stomach. Great horse. Can't wait to get a saddle on him when he's ready. Looks like he's made out of spare parts. Love him to pieces.

I comb ads looking for cheap horses. Auctions are fantastic places to look for horses. Don't get caught up in the whole fad thing - but I think indiscrimiate breeding is a very minor issue on horses - in the grand scheme of things.

Most of the ones going to slaughter are TB and fellow racers - QH and standardbreds. Lovely pedigrees. Lots of roundup horses that didn't find a home - which is a great sadness. Most people don't have the knowledge to retrain these types of horses - most folks don't grow up riding horses anymore - no xc riding, no galloping round on crazy ponies - there is a very strong market for calmer crosses and grade horses for the recreational rider.

I'd hate to see that dry up because of regulation. With my back and knees - my days of crazy TB's are loooong gone. I'll stick to the nice grade horses. No need to import something from Argentina, or a reject from a yard in Europe. Plenty of fantastic horses in the US.

Actually J Swan, you are one of the anti-anti folks I truely respect, for your arguments are valid and I do consider what you add to any discussion.
I have started to read up on the NAIS issue as per your suggestion, and will admit, that I was not educated about it, because I haven't bothered to look at its implications.
So thanks for steering me in the right direction.




To me quality equals marketability. (is that a word?)
For instance, when paints became fashionable, a lot of breeders started breeding paints. Some of them, not knowing what they were doing, ended up with what I call paintless paints (just plain sorrel for instance). Unfortunately you see a lot of them at auctions.
A friend of mine has four of those, all from the auction, she couldn't stand those horses, which were trained and sweet, getting "liquidated" because they didn't "turn out right".

[YoTambien]

I came across this article about the NAIS:

http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/hanchette211.html

[Sannois]

J swan and others...

It seems to me that many of you have more than one horse.. I am lucky to have the one. I guess it is nice to be able to take in some extra ones, I would imagine that your concerns about, the NAIS is bigger than the one horse owner.. I may be wrong, I cant gwt thru the dang documents, I had enough trouble getting thru the info Jetsmom gave me regarding Meat regulations export and testing! By the way, dont shoot me for being Dumb.. What does NAIS stand for??

[YoTambien]

NAIS stands for National Animal Identification System

And a special prize goes to the person who owns the beast with the number 666 in the system.

[blrm]

Love him to pieces.

I agree 100%.You have found the best definition of quality.

Pedigrees and breeding mean nothing when you are looking for a gentle ride around the back 40 or just want a pet to love and cut the grass for you.If ottbs or the like are all that are available in the future we'll have 4 empty stalls.And yes we've been there and done that.