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Genuine Question on Slaughter - Please No Flamethrowers

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  • #41
    Stillworkingonit or Equilibrium,

    Any chance that either of you could mail me the packaging that states horses must be held for "x" number of days prior to slaughter? Also, any other equine medications packaging that states the withdrawl schedule (as it pertains to horses) prior to slaughter?

    It would be great to have the packaging from bute, banamine, dewormers, tranquilizer, etc.

    It would be a great help if you could please find the time to send these items to me. If so, please let me know and I will PM you the address.

    Thanks!!!

    Gail
    www.horse-protection.org

    No Horses to Slaughter Clique

    Comment


    • #42
      OMG The other thread is BREEDING!!

      Whoa.. What the other thread was getting too big?? Too many pages to sift through?? Aww what the heck, the last several pages of the 0 thread has gsome great links from the USDA and EU about meats exported etc.. What is tested, prices etc.. For the OP!

      Comment


      • #43
        As Government Girl, I shall descend in here to answer the OP's queation. All of this is publically available information, so please do not construe this as "official communication."

        In the US, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is responsible for approving the drugs used in animals (and humans, for that matter, but we'll stick with what's relevant).

        Drugs used in food animals are subject to withdrawal studies. (For instance, Banamine is approved for cattle (but not veal calves or lactating heifers), horses and swine. In cattle, the withdrawal time is 4 days before slaughter, 36 hours for milk production. In swine, the withdrawal is 12 days before slaughter.) The drug company has to submit studies showing that the animal clears the drug from its system in x days and can be used as food. These studies add money to the cost of getting the drug approved.

        Drugs used in non-food animals do not have to show withdrawal times. Obviously, the drug companies do not want to spend more than they have to, so they do not perform withdrawal studies in non-food animals. Therefore, the labels for those drugs will say "Not intended for use in animals intended for food."

        Because horses are not slaughtered for human consumption in the US (which is to say that they are not being consumed by humans in the US), they are considered non-food animals.

        Once an animal is slaughtered, it becomes the jurisdiction of USDA. Whether or not an animal is consumed in the US is irrelevant.

        The USDA performs post-mortem inspections and residue testing on all types of animals--cattle, swine, horse, etc. Whoever submitted the animals for slaughter is responsible for making sure the animal satisfied withdrawal times.

        While there are federally mandated withdrawal times for certain drugs, these is no supervised quarantine period. Probably the most common violation of residue testing is penicillin in dairy cows--the farmer tries to treat the cow for, say, an infection of some type, realizes he's losing the battle and decides to ship her for slaughter, forgeting that she's had penicillin.

        So, let's recap:

        1. Yes, there is a waiting time for drugs to clear the body. These are federally mandated in food animals. There are no known withdrawal times for drugs used in horses as approved by the US FDA. Other countries may have determined withdrawal times for common equine drugs, but these are not recognized by FDA for various reasons.

        2. There is no supervised withdrawal period for any animal prior to slaughter. It is the responsibility of the owner to withdraw drugs appropriately, whether at a feed lot or on private property. Literally, that means it is the responsibility of however owns a horse that goes to slaughter to have never used any FDA approved drug, such as a dewormer.

        3. Residue testing (as in drug residue) is performed on horses, as well as cattle, swine, etc. However, I do not know whether every single animal is tested or whether the testing is random.

        4. AFAIK, every country has regulations for the import and export of food, be it produce, meat, whatever. The EU is notoriously strict.

        I will keep my personal opinions on slaughter out of the discussion, but figured y'all would like some facts.
        Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Still Workingonit
          And you wonder why NZ does not accept US beef/sheep into our country? It simply does not meet our required standards.
          Regrettably we permit it into the UK but personally I would never buy it or eat it having spent too much time on American farms. I know that the regulations are changing with regard to traceabilty and drug control but not quick enough and not rigid enough and no where near the standards I have to comply with on my farm.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Equilibrium
            I remember having dinner with a beef farmer and me saying that meat tasted diffrent over here than in the states. And he said well if you take away all the crap you give them over there this is what you get. O.K. got it.
            Terri
            God, so true. The best steak I ever had was in Scotland.

            Comment


            • #46
              I think it is ironic that NAIS, which will allow American meat to conform to importing requirements of the EU- will further erode small scale farming and only increase factory farming - which only increases the amount of crap we give to our animals.

              NAIS is specifically designed to allow American exporters to conform to EU and other nations importing requirements for tracking livestock.

              Other nations are giving their animals the same stuff we give to ours and Europe was using some harmful substances long after we banned them- heck remember all the babies born without arms? We stopped using Thalidomide (can't remember the spelling) - way before Europe did.

              Europe is not any superior. The countries are much much smaller - I think the Commonwealth of Virginia is similar in sq miles to Germany! And Americans would have a fit if there was a butcher three doors down - but in Europe the baker, the postman, the butcher - it's all in the neighborhood.

              So while Europeans might shudder at the distances our animals have to travel for slaughter and how intensively they are farmed- they don't have to deal with the NIMBY syndrome as much as we do. Do any of the suburban dwellers on this BB want a local butcher slaughtering animals and hanging the meat in the window 3 doors down from your house? We live in very different worlds.

              The USDA actually has regs coming out its ears. Being a farmer in this country is no picnic. What the USDA doesn't overregulate the state and local gov't does.

              No farmer bashing, please.
              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
              -Rudyard Kipling

              Comment


              • #47
                Being a farmer in any country in no picinic. And I for one appreciate farmers. By the way, I love getting my meat from the local butcher rather than the grocery store. And it is never a cow hanging in the window. I have better quality meats and can get organic at certain butchers.

                Gail,
                Just going out now to try and look for my sedalin wrapping. I will save it and send it to you no problems! I will PM you.

                Also I have been given beef as gifts from friends who raise a couple of cattle every year. I know where that beef has been and know it's not been given anything either. I also remeber the vigil we had one rainy evening for same friend when her milk cow got sick. We stayed with her all night and wrapped her in blankets keeping her warm and dry. She was old and we couldn't get the vet out until morning to come put her down. Well we just couldn't let her suffer in the weather. I know it's very hipocritical (sp) but I do think the majority of farmers do care about their animals no matter what the situation.
                Terri
                COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                Comment


                • #48
                  The vast majority of farmers do care about their animals - and take excellent care of them. But I see a lot of farmer/rancher bashing on this BB so I like to pipe up for the little guy.

                  There are several small slaughterhouses around here that do an excellent job - very clean, very meticulous about animal welfare - and they'll do custom butchering. The US needs more of that - not less. But alas - the days of the small farmer is dwindling in the US - I much prefer European farming methods - regardless of species - yes - even horsemeat.

                  Originally posted by Equilibrium

                  Also I have been given beef as gifts from friends who raise a couple of cattle every year. I know where that beef has been and know it's not been given anything either. I also remeber the vigil we had one rainy evening for same friend when her milk cow got sick. We stayed with her all night and wrapped her in blankets keeping her warm and dry. She was old and we couldn't get the vet out until morning to come put her down. Well we just couldn't let her suffer in the weather. I know it's very hipocritical (sp) but I do think the majority of farmers do care about their animals no matter what the situation.
                  Terri
                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                  -Rudyard Kipling

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    JSwan, the state and local governments don't do squat for horses! All they do is try to dump the responsibility of enforcement of existing laws off on the USDA or off on each other.

                    "Horses are not important enough" for any of the governmental enforcement agencies to worry about because we don't eat them here.
                    bryn

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Then why, pray tell, are the proponents of a horse slaughter ban relying upon the USDA to enforce it and in other threads have assured us all that the USDA will indeed stop horses from going over the borders to be slaughtered.

                      You can't have it both ways....personally - I don't trust the USDA and that's half the reason I don't support the current draft of the bill that's in committee.

                      But what I was referring to in my post was not specifically about horses - but farming in general and over regulation of food production in the US.

                      Originally posted by bryn
                      JSwan, the state and local governments don't do squat for horses! All they do is try to dump the responsibility of enforcement of existing laws off on the USDA or off on each other.

                      "Horses are not important enough" for any of the governmental enforcement agencies to worry about because we don't eat them here.
                      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                      -Rudyard Kipling

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by J Swan
                        Then why, pray tell, are the proponents of a horse slaughter ban relying upon the USDA to enforce it and in other threads have assured us all that the USDA will indeed stop horses from going over the borders to be slaughtered.

                        You can't have it both ways....personally - I don't trust the USDA and that's half the reason I don't support the current draft of the bill that's in committee.

                        But what I was referring to in my post was not specifically about horses - but farming in general and over regulation of food production in the US.

                        they're the only game in town!
                        Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                        Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Things can change... if the political will is there. It isn't. That's what I'm very afraid of. Co-sponsors of legislation is not the same thing as true political will.

                          But - that's for a different thread, I suppose.....

                          Originally posted by summerhorse
                          they're the only game in town!
                          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                          -Rudyard Kipling

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I've read through this thread, and there are a lot of valid points made. However, the bottom line is, if the Nations who import horse meat both from The US and Canada do so primarily for their tables, then so be it, and let them consume the pesticides, steroids, anti-inflamitories and other medicines and poisons that are in the meat. It is their "thank-you" from the horses that died in order to satisfy their desire to eat horsemeat. Maybe someone should conduct a health study on a population group that devours horsemeat, maybe they'll find that cancer, birth defects and other "unexplained" illnesses are higher in them. Looks good on them!

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              yes, myguyom I agree with you completely.

                              JSwan, I do believe the border controls for all livestock is much tougher than what the government - local, state, and federal - currently do domestically. As I said previously, domestically they spend their time on the food animals we eat - not on the horses we don't eat. I would expect those controls to become even more strict with the passage of 503.

                              In my opinion there simply will not be any economic sense or incentive for the vast majority of kill buyers to try to haul bulk loads of horses destined to slaughter across our borders in any frequency, saying they are not slaughter bound. They haul lots of loads and while they just might get a load or two through, it is darn obvious after a couple loads what is going on. There just aren't that many ports of entry that handle livestock. Besides which, the cost to haul what they will lie to say are non-slaughter bound horses across the border will cut into their profit too severely to be worth it when they can haul other animals domestically instead, without near as much hassle.

                              I have asked a couple of the known local horse slaughter buyers and they said WHEN this passes, they are through with horses.

                              I believe this bill is a good bill. There will never be a perfect bill for any issue and anyone who waits around for the perfect bill will never get anywhere in our governmental system, like it or not.
                              bryn

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                I disagree with you, having dealt directly with the USDA for many years - I have a different experience and do not believe they will place any emphasis whatsoever on ensuring 503 is complied with - as horses are not a food animal.

                                However - as I've said before I would be thrilled to pieces if I was wrong.

                                As an aside - there are two bits of text in 503 that has nothing to do with slaughter but should be of concern to every horse owner, boarding facility owner, horse farm, breeder, huntsman, etc.
                                Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                -Rudyard Kipling

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Thomas_1
                                  And the answer to that is yes meat going into the food chain for human consumption is tested.

                                  How can that be?

                                  I posted a link to a french page on the "0" thread which showed boxes of frozen horsemeat in France, clearly labeled "Bel-Tex".

                                  Are you telling us that the French inspectors thaw out every single box to test its contents before it is sent it on its way to the butcher shops?
                                  ************************
                                  \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Thomas,

                                    I think that you better think a little before opening up your mouth. You sit there and say that you wouldn't eat American beef because you have been on some American farms and seen for yourself. Thats saying a lot from a farmer form the UK. What has happened to your meat industry the past few years. I'm not saying that feeding growth hormones and antibiotics is the greatest thing in the world however it beats grinding up a steer and tossing it into the feed bin. The US gave up on that years ago. The UK gave it up only after BSE was discovered there. How many cases of BSE has the UK had ? And how long did the EU ban British meat? It was longer then 6 months.

                                    In the US there have been only 2 confirmed cases of BSE and our cattle population is a little bit bigger than the UK's. In my state of Kentucky there are 1,100,000 beef cows along with another 30-40000 dairy cows and 1000's of stocker calves that are on grass and a horse or 2. So with the beef cow/calves there are over 2,000,000 head of cattle in this state. We ship most of our cattle to midwest and west to be fed out for slaughter. We are 1 state out of 50 that have cattle. Some have more cattle some have less. I don't think your cattle #'s come anywhere near ours yet somehow our BSE rate is a drop in the bucket compared to yours. ( but even 2 is 2 to many)

                                    Also did you forget about hoof and mouth or was that before your time. I seem to remember it about 2001. Devastated the UK's herds. So what about your control? Where was it 5 years ago? We have not had nearly the disease problems in our livestock herds that the UK has had despite the fact that our herds are larger. What is it then maybe a better part of farm management and education or just luck?

                                    I was born in the UK and still have family there and go back every few years. I love your butcher shops. Especially the ones where the meats are all done up in chops and cuts and sit in the window so people passing can see. I was looking in the window at the flies flying and landing on the meat and thinking boy that's great here it is late June its warm and sunny the meats on a shelf the sun is beating through the glass and cooking that meat. And you won't eat ours.

                                    Regarding the tainted horse meat. What they are trying to tell you that horses comming of the race track with a injury or whatever are sent many times directly to slaughter and then shipped straight to France and Belgium and are hanging in the butcher shop within a few days of leaving the plant without any withdrawl time. And apparantly the EU doesn't care.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Good points, LNG.

                                      Things are not always what they appear.... if the EU doesn't care - I'm not quite sure why we should be worried...

                                      Though I'm not a big fan of certain regs and practices in the US, and I do prefer many farming methods of Europe - they are not any safer than us - regardless of what type of meat. They may be very very strict - but they are very lax in other ways. Hoof and mouth outbreaks - that was just horrible - the mass slaughter - the burn piles - awful.
                                      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                      -Rudyard Kipling

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Still Workingonit
                                        What do you mean that, in the USA, there is no withholding period for drugs used on horses that become meat??? ALL of our wormers (and believe me there seems to be an increasing plethora of them available in little old NZ) have it clearly stated on the packaging that all horses intended for CONSUMPTION are to be held for a minimum of 20 days postworming.
                                        Do you really think the slaughterhorse management is losing sleep worrying about the stranger in another country? Slaughter isn't about morals, it's about profits.

                                        And as far as I know nobody is testing the meat for contaminants after slaughter. We do have USDA inspectors in the US looking for obvious sanitation problems within the plant and signs meat might be rotten.

                                        Anyway, ivermectin the most common wormer family is not toxic to humans - it is to dogs. In humans, it is quite safe to eat a small amount (equivalent to your horses weight for weight) for internal parasite control and to cure river blindness in Africa.
                                        This is incorrect. Ivermectin is the actually in Heartguard, that monthy brown-n-chewy pill dogs get to prevent heartworm infection.

                                        Ivermectin does become a poison in quantity. Give a huge amount to an animal and the neurotoxin can cause coma and in extreme cases death. What I can't seem to find is toxicity and carcinogenic effect over time, in humans or animals. (anyone have this info?)

                                        Taking the emotion out of horse slaughter for human consumption, our MAF is probably stricter on horse abbatoirs than on those where meat is intended for human consumption... And you wonder why NZ does not accept US beef/sheep into our country? It simply does not meet our required standards.
                                        You can't pick on Americans over shipping diseased, sick, and dying animals without looking at your own country.

                                        New Zealand is the county who some US groups are boycotting (both in meat and wool). There are some really negative reports about where all your extra sheep go when they're not producing good enough wool anymore. The sheep are shipped by the thousands live in overcrowded freighters across the ocean, and many die en route. No, the animals don't arrive at a NZ slaughterhouse dying. They're shipped off in inhumane conditions to other nations do to the dirty work.

                                        The reporting of "downers" is very lax especially as to reasons why.
                                        Thousands of exported live sheep can die in one boatload, and countless are weakned to "downer" state. Nope they're not "downers" within NZ but NZ citizens did this to the animals.

                                        http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/PR8369.html

                                        Not trying to pick on NZ in particular but at the same time I don't see NZ as a saint when it comes to meat animals.
                                        Veterinarians for Equine Welfare

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by bryn
                                          I believe this bill is a good bill. There will never be a perfect bill for any issue and anyone who waits around for the perfect bill will never get anywhere in our governmental system, like it or not.
                                          I agree with you Bryn. The bottom line is that those who object to aspects of the bill or say it is not a good bill, do not want to ban slaughter.
                                          "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

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