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NH or no NH...and why?

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  • Originally posted by BelladonnaLily
    We've got one of those wannabe NH trainers out our way. Wears the cowboy hat and bandanna and the whole 9 yards. Also sells his own handmade rope halters

    Well, said trainers daughter is now showing hunt seat. I was at a small local show a few weeks ago and witnessed this:

    Trainer slapping his daughter's bewildered and probably lazy paint repeatedly while yelling "move your feet move your feet move your feet" over and over and over. Paint was pretty much ignoring him until slaps became harder and then he got scared and moved over. I have NO idea what he was trying to accomplish. Then I heard said "trainer" tell his daughter "It's not HIS fault you've left him in a field for the past 3 years!" The is was all RIGHT beside the rail during a class. Now, I don't think this guy is really a bad guy at all...just very noticeably a John Lyons wannabe and a bit comical to watch. I actually had him come to my place about 6 years ago (before I knew better, I guess ) to help with trailer loading my belligerent gelding. Two hours of accomplishing absolutely NOTHING and he wanted to know when we wanted to schedule the next session. Yeah, right.

    Same trainer was doing something similar a few weeks earlier at another show behind trees lining the side of a ring and was spooking horses in the ring. Ring announcer had to make him move.

    Comical.
    I know him...wears chaps wherever he goes?? Doesnt matter if he's not going to ride... He also completely put down one of my friend's riding in front of a crowd in one of his "demonstrations"...he tried to act like he knew what he was talking about, but it was so obvious

    Comment


    • Originally posted by horse_poor
      You big silly-there are no helmets in WTD or WTDNH. Only the beer sippy hats!

      YOU MEAN THOSE DON'T COUNT AS APPROVED HELMETS?"??????
      http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

      She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

      Comment


      • Originally posted by LMH
        OK I will bite and treat this like a real question

        It is no BB secret that I thoroughly enjoy lots of what Parelli and other NH'ers have to offer.

        Several years back I bought my first foal, had NO clue and needed help. I looked into Lyons, Buck, Dorrances, Mark Rashid, and Parelli. I have picked up wonderful information from everyone.

        I currently use almost exclusive Parelli for ground skills, manners, teaching confidence and just pure 'fun stuff'-call me a geek but I LOVE watching the things Parelli does with his horses at liberty.

        Yes, it can be taught with lots of different methods-but his makes sense to me and it works for me...so I use it

        For physical development I go more classical-I currently am taking dress-ahge lessons weekly and the balance between both worlds is the best *I* have seen.

        I don't pay so much attention the the orange stick swingers and many (most) of them kinda freak me out...but reading what Pat has to say and watching him, well I learn things that I use...again call me geek-ina.

        My experience is using the information while ignoring the flash has been nothing but positive, enhanced the development (mentally and emotionally) of my horses...through in some good old fashion dressage and hunter training while respecting the instincts of the horse (as taught through Parelli and others) and I am very pleased with the outcome.

        I know people say it is common horsemanship-but reading classical type books just didn't break it down enough for me to grasp until I found the Parelli information-now I can see the relationship between the two worlds.

        Then again I am blonde so maybe this just speaks to my roots

        No, although you did take teh wind out of the derailment we had going on here....it was funnnnn.....sticks lower lip out to pout.

        Seriously, there are some good things with some Nh principles, its just that not everyone can use them, nor should, because you have to have SOME background and common sense to be able to read your horse and anticipate how he will recieve these actions. Ren and Rebel just look at me like "what is that supposed to do and is it supposed to be dorky or is that just you?" Ben-whole 'nother story.I suspect he is a flunk out of NH. You put him in a round pen, and PICK UP a longe whip (w/ or w/o the bag) and he goes NUTS running around as fast as he can . Drop the whip, talk to him, and he settles down. Dallas, a former colt I had, didn't even handle the round pen at all and would go over it, thru it or freak out entirely the moment he stepped into a round pen ( I bought him as a coming 3 thru an auction, then he had 6 months or better off so he got started from scratch again.) The point is that if someone w/o some horse sense and experience did Parelli with Ben or Dallas, there would be no bonding between horse and person, just bonding between this half the leg bone and that half the leg bone....You have to be able to pick and choose and reason to use it. Other than that, its great entertainment to watch..
        http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

        She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

        Comment


        • Gnalli I am a little confused by your last post and this is what I think causes the confusion of NH being 'ok for some horses and not for others' (which by the way makes me laugh-not at you, in general)

          Explain to me where it is taught to stick a horse in a round pen and pick up a stick with a plastic bag with no preparation. I can't speak for ALL NH, but this example surrrrrrrrreee ain't Parelli

          So would this mean do NOT use bags around this horse or would you find a different way to desensitize the horse to bags.

          Personally I think the bad rap around NH has to do with the fact it has a whole separate name implying a whole separate discipline...when in fact it is simply a method of communicating with a horse based on the natural instincts of the horse-something everyone should be doing when it gets right down to it. Something you do read about in dressage books and hunter books, etc.

          The fact is, I bet MOST people on this BB have pretty decent and humane horse skills, I would bet-so these ideas in NH seem common sense and it seems kind of 'beneath' all of us to actually have to be taught these things. Lots of people took or take lessons in ok or better barns.

          Well...the world just is not that pretty folks...I have a friend in the Paso and TWH world and her acquaintenances do things we would cringe at seeing...these are NOT show people-just people with horses thinking you have to intimidate, force or hurt a horse to get 'er done.

          It is quite a shame that it has turned into a 'division' of sorts---I have said this 10000000000 times...you don't 'do nh' or have a horse that doesn't 'do nh'---most people are just fortunate enough to have the background to have the skills already-others are not so fortunate and need information that is provided in the books of those considered NH trainers.

          Anyway....you kids go back and enjoy your trainwreck

          Comment


          • LMH, I went back and re read my post-you are right-it is confusing. Not enough coffee to be coherent yet.

            I was talking about the way some people (not nec. Parelli, in particular) seem to think round penning can be done by chasing the horse around willy nilly vs. asking him for specific gates in a controlled manner. This is still not coming out the way I want it to. Must go drink copious amounts of coffee, then try again later. Sorry for the mess I made of my post, and please, don't take offense. I basically agreeing with you that there are some good things and some bad things, and you have to be able to discern between the 2.
            Apologies again if I offended you.
            http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

            She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Percheron X
              That's priceless, I loff your mare.
              Me too!

              That pony has taught me more about horsemanship than all the other horses I've been around combined, and I've been around alot!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by LMH
                you don't 'do nh' or have a horse that doesn't 'do nh'---most people are just fortunate enough to have the background to have the skills already-others are not so fortunate and need information that is provided in the books of those considered NH trainers
                That's it exactly. "Natural horsemanship"and, actually all the good cowboy-type methods have beeen turned into a discipline all their own. And that's all wrong. They're just another way of trying to explain how to achieve what every good horseman wants -- a strong, trusting connection with his horse.

                This is from True Horsemanship Through Feel by Bill Dorrance ...

                "There is an easy way to bring out the horse’s potential for lightness, because it is already a part of his natural way of going. While lightness is his birthright, we still need to teach the horse to be light to our feel, which is to say... to be responsive to what the human means by what the human does.

                "This refers to actual physical contact with the horse, and also to a person’s affect on the horse’s space. Interaction with human beings is not natural for a horse so, for our part, we need to observe how the horse responds to us really carefully. By doing this we learn when and how much to adjust our responses and actions towards him in a way that brings out the best in him."

                IOW, if the connection isn't there and the horse isn't doing what you want, nothing will get better until YOU change. Not your horse. YOU. It's just a different way of saying the horse is never to blame.

                But, as I said earlier, this is very difficult to explain to someone who has limited experience with horses. And sometimes even to people who've been around horses all their lives. As Ray Hunt said, it's very simple concept to understand. But that doesn't mean it's easy to apply.
                __________________________
                "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                the best day in ten years,
                you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                Comment


                • Gnalli-goodness no offense taken! I agree 100% that the round pen can wreck more horses than it helps in the wrong hands-Parelli warns against this OFTEN.

                  This is what I don't understand...the biggest NH complaint is OHhhhhhhh it is just common sense!

                  ok...well...how did everyone get this common sense? Seriously-did everyone walk out at 6yo and KNOW how to get a horse to lead, lift a foot, softly accept the bridle?

                  Because I was not fortunate enough to have this common sense! But again I may just be one of the slower minded horse owners in the world

                  So...there is this amazing group of people BORN with this incredible gift to know exactly what to do with horses...so what are the rest of us supposed to do?

                  I was lucky-I had great instructors over the years that taught me how to do flat classes and jump-but no one taught me how to raise babies-when I bought one the solution was to send him off...so how did THOSE people get this incredible common sense? Again born with it?

                  Most people here are always looking for a 'cowboy' for young or difficult horses---so people like Parelli and Lyons take the cowboy sense, package it, market and sell it and those wanting some knowledge have a source to gather the information.

                  Sure the market and sell hard-some more than others...so what? I can ignore the lights and gala and learn what I can or I can enjoy the show when it comes to town...I can choose to invest my money or not.

                  So...why is this a problem? Seriously?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by LMH
                    Gnalli-goodness no offense taken! I agree 100% that the round pen can wreck more horses than it helps in the wrong hands-Parelli warns against this OFTEN.

                    This is what I don't understand...the biggest NH complaint is OHhhhhhhh it is just common sense!

                    ok...well...how did everyone get this common sense? Seriously-did everyone walk out at 6yo and KNOW how to get a horse to lead, lift a foot, softly accept the bridle?

                    Because I was not fortunate enough to have this common sense! But again I may just be one of the slower minded horse owners in the world

                    So...there is this amazing group of people BORN with this incredible gift to know exactly what to do with horses...so what are the rest of us supposed to do?

                    I was lucky-I had great instructors over the years that taught me how to do flat classes and jump-but no one taught me how to raise babies-when I bought one the solution was to send him off...so how did THOSE people get this incredible common sense? Again born with it?

                    Most people here are always looking for a 'cowboy' for young or difficult horses---so people like Parelli and Lyons take the cowboy sense, package it, market and sell it and those wanting some knowledge have a source to gather the information.

                    Sure the market and sell hard-some more than others...so what? I can ignore the lights and gala and learn what I can or I can enjoy the show when it comes to town...I can choose to invest my money or not.

                    So...why is this a problem? Seriously?

                    Sure, everyone has to "learn" somewhere - but traditional commonsense methods from "regular" trainers DO work (assuming - and I know that is not always the case - you can find an appropriate trainer). I have one all picked out in the event my next horse is "unbroke" when I get it - even though I have 45+ years experience with horses - I'm too damned old to be starting a baby. What parelli has packaged up is neither new nor unique. That being said, the "problem" is Parelli, et al. selling "one size fits all" to green riders (or more often non-riders)/owners. Sure a lot of Parelli stuff works and is useful - but in order to make it work, you need to learn to "read" the horse, and Parelli doesn't teach that. Some people, like yourself, benefit from Parelli, adding it as a useful tool with what they already know/have learned. Others see a clinic or two, buy a carrot stick, rope halter and "left handed" lunge line *G* and DVD and go home thinking they are all set to train their horse by themselves. WRONG. The problem is also marketing "equipment" that can be inexpensively obtained through normal equestrian suppliers at much reduced prices.

                    The problem is also imbuing these people with the idea that Parelli is right and the ONLY way. And while this MAY be just the take that some Parelli-ites have and not PP's direct intention (thought I think it might well be LP's direct intention!), I find it interesting that PP certified instructors can have their certification yanked if they use any other method. I would understand it if they meant presenting some other method as "Parelli" - but no, it is do not DARE to use any other method. Period. (And I know a Parelli certified instructor who did have certification yanked for dealing with a problem in a non-Parelli way.)

                    I have a friend who does Parelli quite successful. Why does she do it? Because her horse has physical problems (PPSM among other things - or is it PSSM - whatever - polysacchride storage myopathy, I think), that prevent her from continuing in dressage, etc. Parelli is fun for her and fun, to a degree, for the horse. It gives her something to do and a sense of achievement, which is well-deserved. However, I don't doubt that part of the reason she is so successful in "Parelli" is that the horse was 12 years old, solid 1st level/schooling 2nd/pretty much reliable trail horse, able to ground drive, etc , trained by common sense "regular" training, long before she ever started playing Parelli games with him

                    Comment


                    • Well presented points Sandy M.

                      We agree on this one 100%

                      Comment


                      • The problem is also marketing "equipment" that can be inexpensively obtained through normal equestrian suppliers at much reduced prices.
                        I just saw a $200+ Parelli bareback pad on ebay. WTF? And can someone explain to me exactly how a Parelli cow-patterned barrel (mentioned in another thread) differs from a plain old blue plastic barrel that you can get for free from the solvent factory?

                        Comment


                        • the cow flavor is not the barrel but a plastic cover to put over the plain barrel-just to give a different look.

                          Comment


                          • I felt I was too old to start a baby, too, and waited over a year for someone whose rep I checked out, as well as visiting him and having him come work my horse once - actually a LONG time before he had an opening. A friend of his told me she thought he'd be too rough for my liking, but I thought he'd have a strong hand where I might not. Well, two weeks after he picked her up I said I'd come for a visit in a few days for my birthday. Wife tells me they won't be there because trainer is having knee surgery. I asked if that might impact the training. She said yes and couldn't believe he hadn't called me. But she could because he wasn't good at calling. He told me he would work my horse through a student. I went over to watch a session. It was okay, but I could see that the student wouldn't have the response time the trainer would. This fellow had a good rep from diff discipline people I asked. Was a Dorrance believer, he said. Hosted Buck B. clinics. Said he didn't believe in tags and gimmicks. He ended up leaving my horse tied to a wall for hours with the Western saddle on to teach her patience for being itchy. She now paws where she didn't before. He obviously used a bucking strap on her and her new farrier found her stifles sore - she had no hair on either at the flank area. I started visiting often and when I saw hobble marks - still raw after she's been back with me for going on 3 weeks - I said to bring her home. So 5 weeks with being lunged, every week after the first two telling me they'd get on the next week. Never did. Told me she was snarky, as did his wife and their boarders. Called her a pig when I went to see her lunged and banged his crutched on the roundpen. Said that a friend said I should have her checked internally for a cyst - either that or she was a bitch. I have a feeling that Buck, Ray H. or the Dorrances wouldn't have thrown 5 gallon jugs at her, roped her legs so hard and often that she had marks and lay down to get away from it. I can't believe I waited over a year for that kind of first training for my mare - for who I thought was best in the area. So now we're untraining, retraining. I wish I'd trusted my own training, communication over the years to know better. This man said that this method never failed to work. Uh huh. I know a lot of what I've seen in sessions at expos and tapes and RFDTV or whatever it's called are valid - those that work with the natural instincts and observations of the horse. Sorry, hadn't vented about this in a week.
                            http://www.angelfire.com/ult/irishmosaic/Dublin/

                            Comment


                            • Mariequi!!!!

                              THis happened to Dublin?!?!?! Oh man. Do I know where you're coming from.

                              I don't think that the guy who backed Luna was as rough on her as your guy was to poor Dublin, BUT it has taken me a year to get her over a 6 week experience and gain her trust back.

                              Give Dublin a big hug from me and Luna!!!

                              *on a side-note I'm still trying to get her to NOT face me when she stops*
                              =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
                              ~Jilltx~

                              Comment


                              • Same deal here--at least I managed to stop it after 5 "sessions," but the poor horse had it's brain fried and it took months to regain trust.

                                Comment


                                • I'm afraid this guy, knowing he was to have surgery and unbeknownst to me, did the bucking strap thing to get her as submissive as possible before his asst. took over - and it didn't work. I'm hoping being in a completely diff environment will help. She seems to like everyone, horse and person, at the new place. Walked over jumps and wasn't excited with the drag being hooked up in the arena, etc. I know I'll have issues - probably new ones now because of this - but the trust thing seems to not be all gone. I handled her every day for a year and a half up to the point she went somewhere where she never looked happy, lost a LOT of weight in her first two weeks there - which I was told is 'normal' for him and looked at me PO'd when I would come to visit. She IS spoiled, which is not a wonderful thing for a young 'un, but we go on from here.
                                  http://www.angelfire.com/ult/irishmosaic/Dublin/

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Candle
                                    oooookay here goes. I know these aren't in proper form, but I don't have THAT much time on my hands!

                                    There was once a young man with kholrabi
                                    He didn’t know he was teaching the obvi
                                    He jumped on a horse
                                    Unbroken of course
                                    And ended up marketing his hobby

                                    And then there were horsemen who rode
                                    For the kholrabi no good did this bode
                                    For they laughed in his face
                                    Took his horse to their place
                                    And trained it just fine with their mode

                                    The people on COTH filled with mirth
                                    For flickitatin’ ropes filled the earth
                                    They hoped and they prayed
                                    For many a day
                                    For the NH’er who’d ne’er even tightened her girth

                                    For she was not allowed to ride
                                    Nay, not sit astride
                                    ‘Til her mare was deemed fixed
                                    By the man with the kohlrabi stick
                                    As her money came in his time did he bide

                                    At last the new owner was broke
                                    Weary and tired, she spoke
                                    “I’m so tired of this prattle
                                    Just give me my saddle”
                                    And ne’er again with kohlrabi did she poke!

                                    I love it!
                                    RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
                                    5/5/84-7/12/08

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Sswor
                                      This is possibly the most intellegent piece ever written on the subject of NH... and it's really too bad that it is on a fake thread. Shame, shame, OP.
                                      OK, I've figured out what jingles and trolls are (I think!), but what is a fake thread?
                                      Some horses are so polite that when they come to a fence, they stop and let you go over first!

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by equusrocks
                                        Percheron you're classic! But, Kohlrabi is UGLY!! Ewwww.
                                        Oh, what in the earth is Kohlrabi? Wow, this is like learning to speak Spanish, but without the classes.
                                        Some horses are so polite that when they come to a fence, they stop and let you go over first!

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by SportHorsesForYou
                                          Oh, what in the earth is Kohlrabi? Wow, this is like learning to speak Spanish, but without the classes.

                                          JOY

                                          Kohlrabi is the official state vegetable of New Hampshire.

                                          Look Speed I used C O L O R

                                          Comment

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