NH or no NH...and why?

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

My horse absolutely had ground issues from the track - he had learned to be very defensive and wary (and he is one of the most laid back horses you will ever find, and yes, he's a TB!). When I first bought him, and I was young and impressionable and clueless, a John Lyons "certified tranier" agreed to help me. Which consisted of us in the round pen, and me throwing dirt at him to make him run till he was exhausted (he's pretty fit, that took a looooong time, and you know, I throw like a girl, so my arm ached and my aim deteriorated with every passing minute). Until he stopped, and turned and faced me, and "submitted."

Thank goodness I only fell for this for one session (the guy refused to "help" me any more when he discovered I was continuing to ride my horse, because you can't ride until you are supremo perfect on the ground).

And guess what happened when I got to a barn that practiced true classical techniques and I was learning to free lunge? He would turn, and stop, and face me...

Thank goodness we fixed that. In fact - when I am on top of my game, he will transition between gaits just on my body language. But that's not natural, right?

[x]

My problems with NH

1) It isn't, as they bill it, a "kinder" way, or a way that doesn't "punish"; it is just a different package. Round-pen that horse that doesn't want to be caught until it turns to face you? Has nothing to do with joining up--but has everything to do with the horse figuring out that it is serious WORK if it doesn't let itself be caught; it will just get chased until it quits. By the way, this is one thing that can work well. And if a horse has it done enough, the instant you start to "move" it, said horse will stop and wait for you--he's learned that is the easier way.

2) One size doesn't fit all. While using the round-pen method to start horses MIGHT work quickly and efficiently on unbroke, unhandled range horses, most people it is marketed to do not have those sorts of horses--those horses have already have some sort of work/handling/etc. These horses don't need this, and usually it doesn't do anything except create 'issues'; horse learns he can get out of work...

3) The whole rope halter/leading thing is a bit of a pain; if the rope halter works on your horse, then fine. But if he's plowing you over, then put a chain shank on him! I, personally, hate a horse that walks behind me...in a showmanship or halter class, we'd be in big trouble! Again, that probably comes from ranch horses, whereby they need to stay out of the way while the rider is doing whatever...but they don't need to do what the normal 'saddle horse' does. And those horses still will spook...but they'll tend to spook back...which can be as much of a pain as the eastern horse that is taught to lead beside, but which will spook ahead or to the other (away) side. The majority of people need a horse to lead up beside them, as they will be better equiped to control said horse, etc. etc. The majority of people aren't trying to pick up a sick calf while holding their horse...Incidentally, those ranch horses can learn to lead up beside you, but it is a royal PITA.

4) The ranch-broke horse, again, that is where some of this evolved, is a different breed and a different animal. They are not likely to be babied on the ground, fussed over, worked on, etc. When I get those horses--and I've had alot of them--they are not easy to work with on the ground. And that is NOT a respect issue--in fact, they have too much respect for your space, and are more likely to back off than anything else! I just hate chasing a horse around that has been taught to move hindquarters away from you when I need to doctor a cut! Said horse stays facing me...and it just doesn't work! In addition, when started with the round penning thing, I find that these horses are quite confused on the initial rides--they don't have any background at all--horses trained classically (longed, long-lined, and then ridden) have a reference. If someone who isn't a good rider gets on one of these other horses they are either too green, and the rider gets in trouble, or if they've spent long enough with a NH trainer, they are too broke to subtle signals, and the rider can't ride them.

5) Again, ranch-bred horses don't have a ton of handling, so its a quick, easy way to get them started for decent riders. It was originally designed for this purpose. But today it is marketed as a panacea. Which it is NOT. When you have a finished horse but spoiled horse, it doesn't do a thing. Everyone feels that corporeal punishment is cruel, but when you have a horse that is being a pain in a herd, other horses certainly don't have a problem with kicking the stuffing out of them! Sometimes, a well-timed correction with a crop, spur, or chain-shank is the best fix.

6)This whole one-rein stop thing drives me nuts. I've heard people claim that it "is great for a runaway". But let me tell you, if I had a true runaway, I'd sure as anything not want for it to spin in a tight circle, nor even drop its head hard to the inside and 'disengage' or swing its hindquarters out--if it did that, we'd both wind up on the ground! And using it as a correction doesn't necessarily do any good; said horse learns that it can act up, and then stand still (if you don't believe me, then maybe this will convince you--I had a horse that was broke pretty well, went to a NH trainer, and learned that if he bucked, he got to stop--a one-rein stop. He came back to me, as the problem got worse--not better. I applied a whip to his fanny when he tried the bucking, made him work even harder, and that was the end of the problem.)

7)The marketing does not encourage people to use common sense. And in the end, that is what is needed. Again, one size (or training method) does not fit all--and even if some elements work from the NH, that doesn't mean that all the elements will work for that particular horse. I have to say, I have had more retrains come in from NH trainers, that were serious problems, than I ever have had otherwise.

[physical.energy]

I think it is a grand idea to write to our congresspeople to pass a law that all NH trained horses must wear a BIG neon sign to warn the rest of us to clear out!

arabhorse2- everything below the eyerolling icons is what I am responding with.... I have been in the dressage world for almost 30 years and am the one who has done all that travelling with horses. Proud to say I logged in over 150K frequent flyer miles in 2003. I am telling the truth unfortunately, I am getting old and am horrified at how long it has been

X- you are short on the name but long on the logic I wudda said it all like that but was to cranky. Well done!

[DMK]

No kidding about the facing you on the lunge line. That is one of my pet peeves. When horses are asked ot stop on the line they should stop on the path they are traveling. Not 90 degrees from that path!

That said, I have worked horses on "round pen" work and had them turn to face me, then worked the same horse on (or off) a lunge line and had the horse stay on the path at a halt. But again, it's not a fancy schmancy trick, it's just common sense. If I hold my body at the horse when I ask im to halt, he halts. If I drop my eye and move my body , he wants to move into me. Not Majik, just common sense. And anyone who ever had to catch a horse out in a big field learned about the wisdom of aproaching said horse straight on versus eyes down, off to the side. That was just self preservation on our part. Life's too short to chase a horse around for 3 days.

[Appassionato]

I think it is a grand idea to write to our congresspeople to pass a law that all NH trained horses must wear a BIG neon sign to warn the rest of us to clear out!

For NH wannabe trainers too?

NH makes me think of a horse at my farm. The owner practises Parelli. They moved their horse to my farm back in December, right now only lunging her. It's June, she still just runs around in circles. It's not lunging. Oh yeah, and they stand there cracking the whip every second, and scream out, "Wow! Look at that Arabian canter!" I'm like, "Um, she's cross cantering..."

[arabhorse2]

Ah! Sorry PE, it was kind of hard to figure out where she stopped.

I am getting up there in years too, ma'am, so don't mind me! It must be the hot flashes....

As far as NH, I'm just sittin' on the side of the fence with everyone who thinks most of it is just good common sense on how to get a youngun' started, wrapped up in smoke and mirrors.

[Percheron X]

My problems with NH

1) It isn't, as they bill it, a "kinder" way, or a way that doesn't "punish"; it is just a different package. Round-pen that horse that doesn't want to be caught until it turns to face you? Has nothing to do with joining up--but has everything to do with the horse figuring out that it is serious WORK if it doesn't let itself be caught; it will just get chased until it quits. By the way, this is one thing that can work well. And if a horse has it done enough, the instant you start to "move" it, said horse will stop and wait for you--he's learned that is the easier way.

2) One size doesn't fit all. While using the round-pen method to start horses MIGHT work quickly and efficiently on unbroke, unhandled range horses, most people it is marketed to do not have those sorts of horses--those horses have already have some sort of work/handling/etc. These horses don't need this, and usually it doesn't do anything except create 'issues'; horse learns he can get out of work...

3) The whole rope halter/leading thing is a bit of a pain; if the rope halter works on your horse, then fine. But if he's plowing you over, then put a chain shank on him! I, personally, hate a horse that walks behind me...in a showmanship or halter class, we'd be in big trouble! Again, that probably comes from ranch horses, whereby they need to stay out of the way while the rider is doing whatever...but they don't need to do what the normal 'saddle horse' does. And those horses still will spook...but they'll tend to spook back...which can be as much of a pain as the eastern horse that is taught to lead beside, but which will spook ahead or to the other (away) side. The majority of people need a horse to lead up beside them, as they will be better equiped to control said horse, etc. etc. The majority of people aren't trying to pick up a sick calf while holding their horse...Incidentally, those ranch horses can learn to lead up beside you, but it is a royal PITA.

4) The ranch-broke horse, again, that is where some of this evolved, is a different breed and a different animal. They are not likely to be babied on the ground, fussed over, worked on, etc. When I get those horses--and I've had alot of them--they are not easy to work with on the ground. And that is NOT a respect issue--in fact, they have too much respect for your space, and are more likely to back off than anything else! I just hate chasing a horse around that has been taught to move hindquarters away from you when I need to doctor a cut! Said horse stays facing me...and it just doesn't work! In addition, when started with the round penning thing, I find that these horses are quite confused on the initial rides--they don't have any background at all--horses trained classically (longed, long-lined, and then ridden) have a reference. If someone who isn't a good rider gets on one of these other horses they are either too green, and the rider gets in trouble, or if they've spent long enough with a NH trainer, they are too broke to subtle signals, and the rider can't ride them.

5) Again, ranch-bred horses don't have a ton of handling, so its a quick, easy way to get them started for decent riders. It was originally designed for this purpose. But today it is marketed as a panacea. Which it is NOT. When you have a finished horse but spoiled horse, it doesn't do a thing. Everyone feels that corporeal punishment is cruel, but when you have a horse that is being a pain in a herd, other horses certainly don't have a problem with kicking the stuffing out of them! Sometimes, a well-timed correction with a crop, spur, or chain-shank is the best fix.

6)This whole one-rein stop thing drives me nuts. I've heard people claim that it "is great for a runaway". But let me tell you, if I had a true runaway, I'd sure as anything not want for it to spin in a tight circle, nor even drop its head hard to the inside and 'disengage' or swing its hindquarters out--if it did that, we'd both wind up on the ground! And using it as a correction doesn't necessarily do any good; said horse learns that it can act up, and then stand still (if you don't believe me, then maybe this will convince you--I had a horse that was broke pretty well, went to a NH trainer, and learned that if he bucked, he got to stop--a one-rein stop. He came back to me, as the problem got worse--not better. I applied a whip to his fanny when he tried the bucking, made him work even harder, and that was the end of the problem.)

7)The marketing does not encourage people to use common sense. And in the end, that is what is needed. Again, one size (or training method) does not fit all--and even if some elements work from the NH, that doesn't mean that all the elements will work for that particular horse. I have to say, I have had more retrains come in from NH trainers, that were serious problems, than I ever have had otherwise.

Well said!

[eclipse]

Hey Alysheba,

Maybe you could use your new NH Kholarabi stick to help teach you how to lead changes!

[MeredithTX]

X - You have perfectly described it!

I have a WAITING LIST of horses to work with at a NH barn that I've been doing some work at. Teaching these horses to go forward has been a huge challenge because they're taught to back up when they misbehave. I have one filly in particular who could be a nice little Arab hunter, but first I have to retrain her to move forward and quit sucking back! The lunging this is so ridiculous that I will no longer attempt to lunge these horses. The owner has to do it while I guide from the rail because I got sick of feeling like an idiot trying to use classical lunging methods, only to have the horse just turn and face me, not understanding what I want.

I gave the program a shot and read some books and watched some videos. I was incredibly disappointed. However, after lots of hard work, one of my projects went to a "Parelli playday" at the barn when they brought in a NH clinician and was the star of the class! They were all so impressed with his round movement and the way he yielded to hand, leg, and seat. (Just don't tell his owner it's because I un-parellied him.) Then, when the day was over, the participants proceded to simply tear apart the hay bales and scatter the hay around the arena. Grrrrr... I have to bite my tongue because I've been riding through piles of hay and picking out baling wire for over a week now.

[BelladonnaLily]

We've got one of those wannabe NH trainers out our way. Wears the cowboy hat and bandanna and the whole 9 yards. Also sells his own handmade rope halters

Well, said trainers daughter is now showing hunt seat. I was at a small local show a few weeks ago and witnessed this:

Trainer slapping his daughter's bewildered and probably lazy paint repeatedly while yelling "move your feet move your feet move your feet" over and over and over. Paint was pretty much ignoring him until slaps became harder and then he got scared and moved over. I have NO idea what he was trying to accomplish. Then I heard said "trainer" tell his daughter "It's not HIS fault you've left him in a field for the past 3 years!" The is was all RIGHT beside the rail during a class. Now, I don't think this guy is really a bad guy at all...just very noticeably a John Lyons wannabe and a bit comical to watch. I actually had him come to my place about 6 years ago (before I knew better, I guess ) to help with trailer loading my belligerent gelding. Two hours of accomplishing absolutely NOTHING and he wanted to know when we wanted to schedule the next session. Yeah, right.

Same trainer was doing something similar a few weeks earlier at another show behind trees lining the side of a ring and was spooking horses in the ring. Ring announcer had to make him move.

Comical.

[JSwan]

X - will you marry me???

My problems with NH

1) It isn't, as they bill it, a "kinder" way, or a way that doesn't "punish"; it is just a different package. Round-pen that horse that doesn't want to be caught until it turns to face you? Has nothing to do with joining up--but has everything to do with the horse figuring out that it is serious WORK if it doesn't let itself be caught; it will just get chased until it quits. By the way, this is one thing that can work well. And if a horse has it done enough, the instant you start to "move" it, said horse will stop and wait for you--he's learned that is the easier way.

2) One size doesn't fit all. While using the round-pen method to start horses MIGHT work quickly and efficiently on unbroke, unhandled range horses, most people it is marketed to do not have those sorts of horses--those horses have already have some sort of work/handling/etc. These horses don't need this, and usually it doesn't do anything except create 'issues'; horse learns he can get out of work...

3) The whole rope halter/leading thing is a bit of a pain; if the rope halter works on your horse, then fine. But if he's plowing you over, then put a chain shank on him! I, personally, hate a horse that walks behind me...in a showmanship or halter class, we'd be in big trouble! Again, that probably comes from ranch horses, whereby they need to stay out of the way while the rider is doing whatever...but they don't need to do what the normal 'saddle horse' does. And those horses still will spook...but they'll tend to spook back...which can be as much of a pain as the eastern horse that is taught to lead beside, but which will spook ahead or to the other (away) side. The majority of people need a horse to lead up beside them, as they will be better equiped to control said horse, etc. etc. The majority of people aren't trying to pick up a sick calf while holding their horse...Incidentally, those ranch horses can learn to lead up beside you, but it is a royal PITA.

4) The ranch-broke horse, again, that is where some of this evolved, is a different breed and a different animal. They are not likely to be babied on the ground, fussed over, worked on, etc. When I get those horses--and I've had alot of them--they are not easy to work with on the ground. And that is NOT a respect issue--in fact, they have too much respect for your space, and are more likely to back off than anything else! I just hate chasing a horse around that has been taught to move hindquarters away from you when I need to doctor a cut! Said horse stays facing me...and it just doesn't work! In addition, when started with the round penning thing, I find that these horses are quite confused on the initial rides--they don't have any background at all--horses trained classically (longed, long-lined, and then ridden) have a reference. If someone who isn't a good rider gets on one of these other horses they are either too green, and the rider gets in trouble, or if they've spent long enough with a NH trainer, they are too broke to subtle signals, and the rider can't ride them.

5) Again, ranch-bred horses don't have a ton of handling, so its a quick, easy way to get them started for decent riders. It was originally designed for this purpose. But today it is marketed as a panacea. Which it is NOT. When you have a finished horse but spoiled horse, it doesn't do a thing. Everyone feels that corporeal punishment is cruel, but when you have a horse that is being a pain in a herd, other horses certainly don't have a problem with kicking the stuffing out of them! Sometimes, a well-timed correction with a crop, spur, or chain-shank is the best fix.

6)This whole one-rein stop thing drives me nuts. I've heard people claim that it "is great for a runaway". But let me tell you, if I had a true runaway, I'd sure as anything not want for it to spin in a tight circle, nor even drop its head hard to the inside and 'disengage' or swing its hindquarters out--if it did that, we'd both wind up on the ground! And using it as a correction doesn't necessarily do any good; said horse learns that it can act up, and then stand still (if you don't believe me, then maybe this will convince you--I had a horse that was broke pretty well, went to a NH trainer, and learned that if he bucked, he got to stop--a one-rein stop. He came back to me, as the problem got worse--not better. I applied a whip to his fanny when he tried the bucking, made him work even harder, and that was the end of the problem.)

7)The marketing does not encourage people to use common sense. And in the end, that is what is needed. Again, one size (or training method) does not fit all--and even if some elements work from the NH, that doesn't mean that all the elements will work for that particular horse. I have to say, I have had more retrains come in from NH trainers, that were serious problems, than I ever have had otherwise.

[jilltx]

...7)The marketing does not encourage people to use common sense. And in the end, that is what is needed. Again, one size (or training method) does not fit all--and even if some elements work from the NH, that doesn't mean that all the elements will work for that particular horse. I have to say, I have had more retrains come in from NH trainers, that were serious problems, than I ever have had otherwise.

We have another winner!!!

Actually, your entire post was very well written and logical. Numero siete just hit a particular chord with me, perhaps because in my limited experience with Parelli-ites, most of them tend to be beginners (whom I believe the romanticized version of "Horse-man-ship" appeals to the MOST) with very limited experience with horses in general.

Another poster made an EXCELLENT analogy earlier about flying a plane.

I think it's that lack of exposure to equine body language and the fact that these programs ENCOURAGE a do-it-yourself attitude (for the rank beginners in particular) that bothers me the most.

[RugBug]

OMG, I just had a revelation! MY horse is almost always behind me when I lead. While this annoys me, I've never worked at fixing it, because I am about 98% sure he won't run me over when spooking. The one time he came into my space was when there was absolutely NO WHERE else to go. I even feel comfortable letting less capable people hold him because I know if he spooks, he won't enter their space and will stop when he hits the end of the line.

Now for the revelation: He was trained by a Tom Dorrance follower. Not saying that's a bad thing...just that it might explain the 'behind me on the line' thing. I have always appreciated my horse's respect for my space...so they definitely did that right. I just really ought to teach him to walk-up. I never knew that NH says your horse should walk behind you (guess that shows how much value I put on the gimmicks...I can't even pay attention enough to know that. )

I suppose I need to thank alysheba for helping me come to this conclusion.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I think it's their lack of exposure to equine body-language and the fact that these programs ENCOURAGE a do-it-yourself attitude that bothers me the most.

This is a HUGE point to make. When I started classical (as opposed to NH) groundwork with my horse, I was amazed how much small, subtle changes in your body could affect your horse. And it is simply too easy to fall back into poor patterns (especially after a day spent hunched over a computer, whether or not you are posting on COTH ) without having the eye of an experienced ground person to help you. And I have never seen any of this dealt with in my (albeit somewhat) limited experience with NH.

[dawglover]

hey I know that guy!

"Two hours of accomplishing absolutely NOTHING and he wanted to know when we wanted to schedule the next session. Yeah, right."

Has to be the same fellow...came out with a friend of mine who highly recommended him...wanted to do show me some NH stuff with my gelding (who was then a stallion). I said sure, what can it hurt?
I brought the horse out, he put on the special halter and started waving his arms all around to get the horse to move out away from him...well that worked...probably could have done that with MY halter on him.
Twirled the end of the rope to get the horse moving, horse obediently trotted around in a 10 ft. circle, but that wasn't what he wanted him to do, he just wanted him to go stand at the end of the 10 foot lead and look at him. Told me that I had trained him all wrong. Did some other stuff why I stood there going HMMMMMM
All he did was PO the horse, and me! I too declined when he offered further training sessions.

[Mtn trails]

I went with a friend once who was heavily into the John Lyons thing when she had a lesson with a 'certified' JL trainer. What a load of crap! We got there early and find the trainer eating breakfast while talking non-stop. I got bored in about 5 minutes. We eventually go out to the barn and she round pens one of her horses. Consisted of chasing the horse around for 10 minutes or so and then putting him away. It's now around 11:00 am. JL trainer goes into barn and gets her horse tacked but needs a full-on show grooming first. This takes about an hour and this gal hasn't drawn a breath from talking non-stop since we got there. Finally we go out to the arena and I think - Now I'll see something happen. Wrong-o. Friend gets on her horse and starts walking him around while trainer is working her horse. She doesn't get any direction to do anything in particular so friend on her horse eventually wanders over to the fence and stands there. The JL trainer told her to wait for the horse to decide when to move. WTF?! The horse falls asleep while friend is waiting for the horse to make up his mind. I don't think he's going to move anytime soon.

Finally trainer tells him to encourage some movement out of him and horse ambles around the arena a few times and stops again and takes another nap. Trainer is still working her horse not really paying attention. Finally we get to the end of the "lesson" and it's around 5:00 pm. We've been there since 9:00 that morning. Put horses away and go into trainer's house. Remember, she has yet to shut up and let someone else talk. We're there until 7:00 while she writes out a lesson plan for the week and keeps on yapping away.

Eventually we arrive home about 11:00 that night. What a waste of a perfectly good day I think. I can't believe this gal actually pays this moronic woman to not work her horses or learn anything. JL lost a lot of the luster after this. I heard recently that friend went from following JL around to Clinton Anderson, to Pat Parelli, and is now a Ken McNabb groupie.

[jilltx]

This is a HUGE point to make. When I started classical (as opposed to NH) groundwork with my horse, I was amazed how much small, subtle changes in your body could affect your horse. And it is simply too easy to fall back into poor patterns (especially after a day spent hunched over a computer, whether or not you are posting on COTH ) without having the eye of an experienced ground person to help you. And I have never seen any of this dealt with in my (albeit somewhat) limited experience with NH.

NH TALKS about it all the time (or at least for the agonizing two day clinic I went to), but I just don't think *most* equine neophites are tuned-in to it.

I totally agree with your assesment, DGRH. Especially the COTH/Puter slouch. Guilty!!

[mp]

On the NH I really enjoy the Dorrance Brothers and use the basic groundwork on my horses. It gives them a nice foundation, and I love the concept of feel and learning to feel the feet. Once we get the basic groundwork down, then we move onto more traditional methods with some NH stuff thrown in.Steph

Oh PLEASE, don't lump the Dorrances in with NH. They were about as far removed from gimmick-y, anybody can do this BS as you could possibly get.

But ... I agree with you about their ideas and methods -- getting the feel of the horse is what it's all about. But have you ever tried to explain that to someone who doesn't have much experience with horses? If you have, then you know it's impossible. You can show them and then coach them when they try for themselves, but without that hands-on input, it's unlikely that they'll ever understand what the hell you're talking about.

I think Pat Parelli and people like him know how to get the feel of a horse, that each horse is an individual and no single method or approach is going to work with every animal. But they also know you can't make the big $$$ by coaching people one at a time.

[Amchara]

Dorrance

I have heard this name a few times, anyone care to enlighten me?

[mp]

I have heard this name a few times, anyone care to enlighten me?

Tom and Bill Dorrance were brothers, both deceased now. They were ranchers and cattlemen who had a knack (especially Tom) for working well with horses and developed a reputation for being the best. They have had a huge influence on most of the current cowboy type clinicians. Ray Hunt was a good friend of Tom Dorrance's, and credits him with changing not just the way he worked with horses, but his whole perspective on life. And Buck Brannaman (the real model for the title character in the novel The Horse Whisperer) worked with Tom Dorrance, too.

The link below will take you too a excerpt from a book Bill Dorrance wrote at at the age of 89 (he was still training horses). It will give you a good idea of how they worked with horses. And why so many people hold them in such high esteem.

True Horsemanship Through Feel