Looking at horses for sale

[~DressageJunkie~]

Okay, I'm back now We'll start with the horse, and what you can do to help her, and then I will talk directly about sitting the trot.

Basically, when your horse has it's head in the air, if you can picture it's spine, it forms a U (not that dramatic, obviously). When the horse does that, it loses the ability to step underneath itself with it's hind legs. So what you need to do is get her hind end moving energetically, and then harness that energy going forward. It's kind of like recycling Ask Sheza to go forward, and as you are trotting (the easiest gait to work with this in), half halt (sit up straight, suck your navel into your spine, and give a gentle squeeze on the OUTSIDE rein), and then push her forward again. Continue this process and her head should eventually stretch forward and down. Remember that for each half halt on the outside rein, you need to give her a release - so it's squeeze with the fingers and release quickly (I like to say that the release always has to be faster than the take). DO NOT pull with the hand - that would be like jerking on her mouth. It's just a gentle squeeze like you would squeeze a sponge.

It may take Sheza awhile to stretch down, so to help her, you can work on school figures while she's doing it - circles of 20m, serpentines, don't just go endlessly around the arena. In fact, when you circle, it's actually a bit easier because in order to get around the circle comfortably she has to step underneath herself a bit more.

Okay - get the stretchy thing - it WILL take time. It just will. If she gets it on the first try it will amaze me During this time while I am attempting to get a horse to turn from upside-down to right-side-up, I also like to put some "float" in the reins. Often these horses are resistant from both being somewhat naturally uptight but also from harsh hands to the mouth. So I go back to loose, but not floppy reins. I make the entire ride casual. Sometimes if I have a particularly whizzy horse, I will start singing a slow song and posting to that rhythm instead of the whizzy rhythm that they are providing to me. Let her stretch down like I mentioned above periodically during the ride. She can't ride the entire ride in that uberstretch, but she CAN do it often during the ride and between that, work on transitions. Walk-trot, then trot-walk. Various places around your riding area.

POST this trot while you are getting Sheza strong. If you attempt to sit on her back while she's inverted she will get sore and resist further. POST it lightly, and make sure your hands and seat are soft soft soft. Float down into the saddle like a feather. Do not stand tall, but when her motion throws you out of the saddle, simply assist it a little and hold yourself - so much of riding is about your core strength in your tummy. That's that sucking the belly button back to the spine thing. You can try that one off the horse. When you suck your belly button back to your spine (without holding your breath) you should feel your core muscles get stronger.

Okay - you know, I was going to talk about sitting, but actually now that I think about it, I'd like to see you work on this for a little while. It's plenty to work on. When you can get Sheza going around long and low, then we can talk about some more

For reference....
This is my TB high-headed mare when I got her. Look at the muscling in her neck and how much of it is in the underside. This is from that resistance that I was talking about earlier.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...66388454QUCxUA

This is a picture 5 months later. See the difference in the muscles in her neck? Please ignore the stupid look on my face, I was talking to my husband and I had a stiff neck so I look like a total dingbat.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...66388454bOKIkW

Though she's saddled, and you can't see her back, what also happened as a result of this was that when she started out she had shark withers and hollows beside her withers. She had no muscle along her topline. As she developed, her back actually filled out because of the muscle that she was gaining, and her back actually CHANGED.

I wish I could draw a picture for you here, but something that you can do to try to understand is kneel on all fours. Arch your back and look up at the sky, then try to walk on all fours. Do you feel how your back legs are restricted? Then, drawing your belly button to your spine, stretch over your back and arch it just a little bit. Look down at the floor (which a horse isn't doing when they stretch, but since our eyes are inconveniently located for this exercise, you have to look down) and then try to walk on all fours. Do you feel how much further you can stretch those hind legs underneath you? It's the same for Sheza.

Does this make sense to you? It's so hard to write to someone and explain it. If you have questions about any part, let me know. I'd love to see pictures of the two of you.

Yep, everything makes since.

I don't know if you saw my show pictures, her head was very high, but I was tense, so that was my fault, I am usually not that tence though, the last picture is the best.

You can look at the whole picture album. The only jumping picture was before I had lessons and before my new saddle that fit me. Page 6 and 7 are my show pictures.

I don't know what to do about Tex still, my mom wants to know if her taking lessons once a week while Tex is getting trained would help, then she would ride him at least once a week in a round pen and then I would ride him at least another time. She really wants Texas to work out, he is a good little horse, we have taken him trail riding before and he was better then Sheza. She feels like she needs another chance with him. Should we try this and if it doesn't work then sell him, then he would have 30 days of training.

I would really love a horse to take my into eventing but I don't think I could sell Sheza, and my mom really loves Tex. I could get her to continue lessons after he got back, but I dunno.

[ddashaq]

I am really pleased for you to be thinking in the right direction. Although your mom really wants to keep Tex, weekly lessons are not going to give her the knowledge/confidence/skills to work with a youngster. Even if it is an insanely quiet youngster, he is still a yougster prone to doing those youngster things. For example, if he gets back from the trainer and decides to develope a bad habit like bucking, do you or your mother have the skills to ride him through it? Probably not. I am not saying that you are not a good rider, I have no idea how you ride, but do you really want to be the one that has to work him through that sort of thing? I hope that you can talk your mom into letting him go for some thing more suitable for both of you. Especially you, learning to jump is soooo much more fun on a horse that knows what it is doing and is forgiving of mistakes. By the way, I have the pony club "D" book and would be very happy to send it to you if you are interested. Good luck with your mom, I hope that you get her talked into a better match!!

[OakesBrae]

I understand your mom's feelings. It's hard to give up a horse. I've sold a few and it has always broken my heart...BUT...life goes on. She will be better off with a broke horse and even though I'm sure Tex *IS* a good horse, and he *WILL BE* a good horse - he's not a good horse for your mom. She needs a dead-broke weekend-warrior sort of horse. That may even encourage her to ride more

I think I saw your show pics - do you have a link?

[~DressageJunkie~]

ddashaq, bucking is the whole reason I stopped riding him, I can't stand to get bucked off, freaks me out!

Silly me Oakes, I had it all up, but forgot to post the link!
http://community.webshots.com/album/394599251kWKzyY

I really like this horse, it does it all, good age, and good price.
http://dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php...orse_id=767206

[SchoBella]

Thanks, but I am looking for somthing under the age of 15 and that is already trained to jump. I still want to look at Lukey, I am not a complete beginner, he could be perfect for me.

Thanks for looking though.

Just so you are aware.....With Lukey, He's pretty cute! BUT, if that horse is jumping 3'6 like they say he is, and saying he is NOT for a beginner, at the price they have him listed for....There's got to be a HUGE hole there. Horses that are 3'6 capable DO NOT sell for 3, 500. It doesn't hurt to try him but just be aware that there's something wrong with that scenario...whether he TRULY is NOT for beginners (or even intermediates) or not sound, bad stable vices, etc....Just be cautious...if a deal on a horse seems too good to be true, it probably is.

[~DressageJunkie~]

What about Smokie, he is 15, jumps 2' 9", gets lower 60's in Dressage, and placed in 2ft eventing. He is $3000

[Candle]

Okay, I flipped through your webshots, and I can't link to the picture, but I'll try to explain. What might be happening, and also might be the reason for Sheza running out, is that you seem to be hunched over and pulling on Sheza's mouth. You could try raising your hands, lengthening your reins a little bit, and practicing sinking your weight down into your heels, and trying to feel like your weight is "distributed evenly along your entire leg" (thanks george morris ) That means try to have the same amount of "grip" or pressure on your lower calf against Sheza as your upper thigh. And stick your chest out and relax!

What helped me overcome this when I was starting out was practicing two-point. Put an old rope or stirrup leather around Sheza's neck so you can hang onto it for balance instead of her mouth, and hold it along with the reins. Then, have your instructor practice two point with you in your next lesson, and practice it with Sheza. Sometimes, if you've accidentally hit her in the mouth, she'll go around with her head raised because she's worried that you'll do it again. Do lots of medium sized circles with her each way, and she won't be as likely to run off or get quick, and you can focus on having longer reins. Also, set up some ground poles- three or four in a row, that she can trot through and that will naturally make her slow down and think about what she's doing with her feet. Just try to help her maintain a good, steady rhythm (sp?), don't pull on her mouth, and relax, and her head will also come down.

She might be running out on jumps because she's not in balance. That would be my best guess. If she doesn't feel balanced, she's not going to jump. I'd work her on the flat more, and help her feel safer about jumping. Think about it- if you thought you were going to fall on your face after you jumped a hurdle, you sure wouldn't do it again, would you?

At six inches, any horse can step over that. How are you asking her to approach the jump? In a trot or canter? Is she quicker and quicker as she approaches the jump? I'd ask her to go up to that at a trot- a nice steady trot that I'd established while on a circle, and then I'd go off the circle and jump the little jump. Make SURE you stay in a good two point position- raised out of the saddle a little, lower leg ON, hands forward on her neck and holding onto the neckstrap. Don't hit her in the mouth, (use the neckstrap to hold onto), and keep your lower leg on. Hope that helps a little bit- Oakes feel free to add anything about spacing the groundpoles or anything else!

[~DressageJunkie~]

Thanks for all the advice, I do about 5 mins of two point at the beginning of each lessons.

I am pretty sure I am asking her to jump wrong, I don't do half haults to slow her up when I should and I am not paying attention so I am not balanced, which causes her not to be balanced. I have been asking her from the trot, I just need to work on balance, I have two jumps in a row, I think they are too close, I am thinking that because she is having trouble setting up for thte next, she is not balanced enought to do one stide between yet.

[OakesBrae]

He's cute, but I'd worry if his owner rated him a 7 in temperament. Just because sellers *usually* go the other way.

Okay, some other things that I see - you may or may not be working on them - so bear with me. This isn't criticism so much as an offer of help - so please do take it that way!! I want to see Sheza respond to you like you want her to....

You do have a tendency to put your hands in your lap - particularly when you get nervous, I'm assuming. That will cause your arm to brace, which won't help Sheza calm down. To help you out a bit I usually do two exercises with students that have this problem. One is to put your hands way forward onto her neck (which is right out in front of you) and put your knuckles into her mane. This way your hands stay stable and you have to learn to bend your elbows and not pull. The second is to ride with your reins WAY long and your hands on your knees. This is to do the same thing - get you thinking about softening your hands and bending your elbows. Sheza will have trouble softening until you do. The other thing that I do with students is have them turn their hands around and hold the reins like driving reins (look at carriage pictures if you can to see what I mean). It's very hard to lock your elbow with your hand held in this position, and you can start to feel that softer feeling.

I'd also suggest LOTS and lots of work in two point - get that leg strong and stable. Think about sinking your weight down and toward her hind feet, without jamming your ankle (which happens to a lot of people). Point your toes in a hair so that your leg stays quiet along Sheza's side. My guess is that Sheza is fairly sensitive and that she has tuned your leg out because it's been "shouting" at her.

Okay - couple this stuff with the stuff I told you before - and I think that's PLENTY to work on. These are all things that people work through - I think you're at that point where you're beyond just W/T/C and you're ready to really learn how to do those things better and to refine some of what you do. I think just like there's a training pyramid for horses, there's a training pyramid for riders. You start out just learning how to get on, stay on, and become semi-functional. Then you get a little bit more refined. Then you get still further refined. And you continue to hone YOUR OWN skills until you develop tact and feel. That continues up the pyramid but I'm too tired to think of what I usually say at the moment *laughing* It's 1 am here and my brain is starting to stumble

Best of luck DJ - and I'm happy to help more as you go through the process. I'm not teaching any more, and it's killing me - so I'm happy to help here *laughing*

[OakesBrae]

Candle you BEAT me again!

Darn it - I had typed up that whole post and it took me forever and Candle said so much of what I was saying! Sorry DJ!

I agree with the balance thing. Okay, here's what I would do with that. DJ - I've already mentioned the approaching in a light half seat - do you know what I mean by that? It's like, not the whole way a two point - a little more open of a hip angle, but the same concept - butt basically just brushing the tack.

I'd start with a groundpole - I'm sure you've already done this, but I'd go over the groundpole a few times in that half seat at the trot WITHOUT micromanaging the horse until she figures out where she needs to be. She'll figure out her legs. When she can approach it, hop over it, and trot away calmly with no change in rhythm, then I would proceed to a set of four groundpoles, set at ~4' apart - I wish I could get a sense of her stride, but I can't see her, so that's the best I've got. See if you can get someone on the ground to adjust it if that's too long or too short for her. Same thing - get in that half seat and get out of her way. No mucking about. The biggest challenge for riders is to do nothing AND THAT'S EXACTLY what you need to do

Then I'd do the same thing with a *very* small jump - even *just* a set of flowerboxes. Hop over it on a soft rein *in* that half seat until the mare doesn't change rhythm, have anxiety, or run out. Remember the eyes. Do NOT pull on her. Even if she speeds up. LEAVE her alone - if she does speed up, about a stride or two after the fence, calmly bring her back to a trot and continue until it is "no big deal".

I'm not going to complicate things with gymnastics just yet - but that's what I'd do with her next. Some may disagree with me, but I prefer to have horses figure things out on their own. It's "quicker" to micromanage, but in the long run, I like horses with the brains to get me out of a bad situation. Remember, your job is to set pace and line - her job is to do everything else. She has to learn her job. The best way to do that is for you to stay out of her way *smile*. Others have other approaches, I'm sure, but this is the best way I know to have a happily jumping and confident horse. Especially Chestnut mares Most that I know do NOT appreciate being micromanaged thank you very kindly.

Is this enough to get you started? And to give you an idea of scale - you can, and should, work on this for at least several weeks before it really starts to "click" with both of you. I'll have some recommendations about in-hand and longe-work too - but again, I'm uber-tired, it's 1 am here and I have a new horse coming in tomorrow!

[~DressageJunkie~]

Thanks for all the help, I am going to ride later tonight when it cools down some, it's so hot here, can't wait till fall

How do you think I should correct her if she does run out? I have heard lots of different ways, but it's hard to for me to correct her right when it happens unless I am thinking about it, but if I am thinking about running out she probably will run out.

I have a show next weekend, I have to do some 4H riding tests, and I haven't cantered Sheza forever, it's not somthing she is great at, it's hard to get her into a canter, and then keeping her slow without stopping her, it has gotton tons better though. I will have to go to the arena up the road to canter, right now we don't have an arena, nothing is flat enough around me to make a nice one, so it will just be a 60ft by 80ft. It will be better then nothing though.

[hopashore1]

It's kind of hard to get an idea of how she runs out. It might be a good idea to not jump for a little bit until you work on some of the other stuff. If you're supposed to jump in the show, it is ok to scratch a class--it's a learning experience, not just a ribbon But, if the fences are tiny, just start all over by walking up to them. Stay in two point and keep your leg on! Hold some mane and encourage her with her leg and a cluck if she hesitates. You can do this at a trot too. Keep her straight with your legs. Can you put a jump against the rail so you have a barrier to one side? Then be especially tough with holding your inside leg and outside rein. If she does run out, make her stop. I would not hit her at this point because she may just be confused about what is expected. Turn her back in the direction she turned away from, and reapproach the fence from a shorter approach, even at a slower gait if you feel more comfortable.

I kind of think of a light half seat as if your body was angled as it is in the "up" stride of the post. Keeping that hip angle, just sink yourself lightly back into the tack, but not all the way sitting. Do two-point more than just in your warm up. Challenge yourself. See if you can hold it for 10 minutes at a time. See if you can do all three gaits (including transitions) in both directions while holding two point. Make sure you are gripping with your thigh and calf, not just your knee, and work on pushing your heels down. It's ok to grab some mane, too.

I agree with getting a neck strap. Even if you use an old belt, or a stirrup leather and put it around her neck--put your hands forward. Even grab a little mane. Is she really hard to steer? It's ok if she is on a light contact. Work on steering her with your hips and legs and not just your reins. Make her go forward, but not fast. If trotting--start at a regular trot and find a song that kind of suits her rhythm . While posting to that rhythm, ask her with your legs to go more forward, but continue posting to that original song. And allow with your hands--hold on to some mane or something. Don't worry about a "headset" that will come! Let her reach forward with her neck--it's kind of deceiving, because you are not pulling their head down and back when it is correctly done. The horse naturally puts his head more or less in that position when he is relaxed in his back.

If you have a hard time with your reins getting too long, have her stand still. Wait until she accepts some contact with her mouth--doesnt have to be a dressage frame, but no giraffe neck either Find where on the reins is just before her withers, unbuckle the reins, and tie each rein so there is a knot at that place. Now work on holding those knots.

At the walk, you can work on asking for a little bend to the inside and outside. put your outside hand a little more forward, and asking her to bring her nose to the inside a little bit (enough to see the back half of her eye) and use your leg to keep her pushed out onto the circle. It may take some tries. Don't ask for a lot of bend, just ask her to bring her nose to where your hand asks and still stay straight. Then do the reverse to ask her to bend to the outside, but still stay on that circle. You can alternate this--ask for moments of her being straight, then ask for different bends.

If she is really good with some little bending and starts to put her neck down and relax, don't push it! Just stop there, give her a good grooming. You can also do carrot stretches to help her loosen those neck muscles, by standing first at her shoulder, and then slowly moving backwards as she is able until you are by her hip, and have her reach her head around for a treat. If she is used to carrying herself in this high headed way, it might help to loosen up her tensed neck.

[goeslikestink]

well i looked to-- dj you standing to rise to the trot thats wrong--

try to sit and try everything sitting down in trot bring your hands back to the pommel dont hunch over if you bring back to yourself and sit in the seat then you wont be throw on and over the top which has been happeing with tex as you say you been bucked off of course you would be theres nothing of your bum in the saddle -- so sit -- bring your hands back

you know it you sa t the horse would go slower-- do more work i stting trot when you rise its a movement with horse a tiny movement a lift up with about an inch of a gap from saddle you have about 2ft= from bum to saddle as you hanging on her mouth-- so dont -- sit down and then think you got a tube of toothpaste under your bum and everytime you rise you want to give it a litle squirt --

do you see dressage riders comming out of the saddles 2ft in th air == i think not-- its a small movement of your knees to push up and tiny bum off thr saddle a wee bit -

you need walk trot work to learn trot as in trot dont stand up in stirrups to ttrot -- not correct and if horse like isad played up then no thing but the floor to meet you== sit sit sit and sit in

[EqTrainer]

GLS is right. Posting is a forward motion more than an up motion. I always tell riders - the horse is going forward, so must you - or you get left behind. Think of their being a wall in front of you and you need to post your hips to it.

[Candle]

to answer your question- at the level you're jumping, I'm assuming about six inches, or the lowest thing you can set and still call it a jump- you need to do anything possible to get her over it WITHOUT losing your temper. Be firm, turn her head to face the jump, kick her, get off and lead her if you have to. Once she steps over the jump, praise her enormously, and try it again. Do it maybe five times, stop on a good note, and praise her the instant she steps over it. No horse should not be able to step over a slightly raised pole unless they have vision problems. If this doesn't work, don't get mad, just come back here and try to detail what you did, and what she did. These questions you're asking are difficult to answer online, but I and some others here would really like to see you succeed with this mare, as it sounds like you love her and are trying to do right with her. Good luck with this! I'd also just have her jump one jump at a time for now, (still do low jumps that she can step over), until you can measure out actual distances for the jumps. I have a book with some distances in it, I can photocopy a few pages for you and send them when you're ready for it. Training the Event Horse and Rider by Jim Wofford has some great exercises in it, both for dressage and jumping.

[~DressageJunkie~]

Candle, at lessons I am am jumping 2ft 3, but at home I just jump low to work on getting her reliable over the jumps.

[SaturdayNightLive]

Ground poles are the most fool proof way to school a young horse in jumping. An actual jump is completely unnecessary.

[Candle]

Candle, at lessons I am am jumping 2ft 3, but at home I just jump low to work on getting her reliable over the jumps.

At home, I would keep it that way. No higher than she can easily step over, so that in case she refuses, you can make her step over it with no real harm done. Also, poles like the poster above me mentioned, are a really good way to practice jumping without worrying about doing something wrong. Just make sure you're in 2-point and holding onto the neckstrap!

[~DressageJunkie~]

Thanks for all the advice. Though right now we are going to keep them both for awhile, invest in training for mom and both horses. If that doesn't work out we are selling, my mom really wants to give him another chance to be a great horse for us, she promises training for herself too. Yes, I would like a nice horse to event on, but Sheza could be that horse in a year. My trainer told me about a jumping show that I am going to July 8th, just cross rails, but she says Sheza is a better jumper then any horse there. I am working with myself to get better at doing groud work with him.

[alysheba]

I'd recommend riding schooling horses and moving up in the ranks until you can ride a horse like what you are looking for. Obviously you have a hard time letting go of a horse (don't we all), so why not get the experience so that you only have to buy one?


Also, I know you are young, so you wouldn't be spending the $5000 on a horse. Mom and Dad would. Am I right????

Don't ask them to throw money into a horse you are not ready for. Instead invest it into lessons so you can HANDLE that dream horse you want to fly over 4' fences with!