How far is too far for a farrier?

[WPF]

Sounds to me like the horse has very good reason to fear the farrier, her owner, and all others entrusted with her care. I fear for both horses' welfare in this situation. I never thought I'd ever say it, but I fear they'd be better off at the renderers that having to endure years of this escalating abuse at the hands of such arrogance, anger, and ignorance. Flame me all you want, these horses should be rescued from this situation. Period.

[alysheba]

Maybe next time, you could have the vet sedate her beforehand. DON'T do it yourself, have the vet do it (much safer that way). It's not the ideal solution, but at least she'd be quiet enough that the farrier wouldn't have a reason to beat on her. And maybe, after a few good experiences, she could go without the sedative.

My horse hates having his front feet done, and does need to be sedated. Even then, he's a pain sometimes. My farrier is A SAINT...never loses his cool, never hits the horse, and turns everything into a schooling session; if my horse tries to go backwards and slam a foot down, the farrier WON'T put it down if he can help it. He also takes his time, putting in two nails, then letting my horse put the foot down for a minute. I have to say my horse is better than he was, but still has his "moments." Vet and farrier both think it's a mental issue, not a physical one.

So I always find myself apologizing AND thanking my farrier profusely, because I know other farriers WOULD want to beat the snot out of my horse. That my farrier can just sigh, shake his head, and pick up the foot again is AWESOME as far as I'm concerned.

And BTW, my farrier is "mid-priced," NOT the most expensive out there. I do think, DJ, that you can do better than this a$$wipe; just keep looking and asking around!

Working with a horses feet is the #2 cause of death when working with horses.. #1 being wrecks, of course.

[LoriO]

Please, please, please for the benefit of all, sell these 2 youngsters to someone who can handle them properly and go get your self a good older well broke horse that already knows the ropes. One that can teach you what you need to know and don't (even though you think you do. )

[RojoPony]

"I didn't notice any of the marks untill he left, I didn't think the whip actually hit her (he took her into the paddock to lunge) I didn't know he hit her with the rasp, I thought it was his hand at first."

"My dad was there, he didn't see the cuts either till after the farrier was done."

Your farrier worked on 4 feet and nobody noticed the marks till he left? That seems strange

"I really don't get what I did wrong here, the farrier is a trainer, owns cattle, and trims for well respected people, including Bar Money Sunny, one of the best QH in the state of Kansas, I doubt he would listen to me. As for getting a new farrier, they arn't around every corner where I am."

There are quite a few decent farriers in this area. I have never heard of a farrier in this area who is also a trainer, much less a BNT. Also Bar Money Sunny hardly qualifys as one of the best QH in Ks

PM me your farriers name.

[alysheba]

Has she acted like this before with the farrier?

My horse had some issues with my farrier when I moved barns. The farrier asked ahead of time if he could discipline my horse (who is fine with me but tests strangers). Horse reared in the x-ties and the farrier whacked him with the rasp and backed him. But my farrier is a very good horseperson and knows when to stop. My horse deserved it and was immedietly better. But my farrier didn't leave marks on him or cut him, and my horse didn't shake after.

But there is a fine line between disciplining a horse and going overboard and it takes a good horseperson to realize that.

It's also up to you to make sure she acts as good as possible before the farrier gets out there. Since you've been having problems, maybe you could have someone knowledgable around horses come out and help you. Or send both horses to the trainer.

Holy crap! Unless the horse was rearing to attack the farrier, I don't think he should have hit him. That just reinforces the horses reason for hating farriers, or having his feet messed with.

I would suggest finding a NH trainer to work out your horses feet issues. He rears because he is afraid, which comes from lack of trust. Your horse should not distrust humans, and there are trainers out there that specialize in helping horses understand that. Please Please find one!

[goeslikestink]

well i think iam understnading this a bit different as all the truth isnt there but is if you read between the lines iam not sticking up for the farrier but

she said she was being a pita mare--- that tells me dj was having problems in the first place as her horses arnt what you call well mannered so if the farrier saw it would try to get them to behave if the horses are being ill mannered then would try to get them out of it so they could attend to them

so imgine hes the first perosn to actually see them for what they are and how
mis behaved they are with her the first person as there is no trainer i dont think -- trys to get them to behave and bring them back to behave in the being forceful becuase he has to be forceful - him or neds--

the key is in the last statement -- helunge her like she used to be lunged-- and she was good--

theres a lot thats missing -- iam not saying the farrier was wrong or right
but sometimes -- like i wll give an exsample fogi bite the farrier when my eyes were of him as i looked to get my drink in that instance he bit the farrier of whome was naked to his pants as it was hot and bent over now the skin was already stretch as he was bent over and fogi bit him- he did no more than a natural reaction to swing up and hit him with the hammer on his neck--
now he said was sorry as he doesnt hit horses and it did take old fogi by surprize - but i said look make it was my fualt becuase i took my eyes of him for a second i dont blmae you for it it was an instance smack and no doubt if i had been in his shoes would have done the same-- thats not abuse -- it was a smaclk well desevered in an instance poor man had abite mark balck and blue the dize of a mans fist with teeth marks.

the point iam making is dont all jump to conclusions read between the lines
and the history of the person posting -- its not the horses fault for being a pita mare -- as thereno trust with any of her horses to her or anyone else
and if the farrier was a genuine -- and a trianer to boot - and he had a horse to shoe that was dangerous -- then put your self in his shoes-
would you try and help her and give her advice
would you walk away
would you leave her to it -- leave her to handle a rearing horse that is comming at her --as she said that first-- or you being the expreince perosn jump in and take hold of a rearring horse comming at you cause a child was handlling it and you knew full well she was in danger-- so you took command of the situation a did what you had to do to make it behave.

or would you leave to handle a rearing horse to suffer the consquences and be dead -- or whatever..

dj sell your flipping horses and get a n old school horse this now tells me that niether off them are behaving for you -- becuase you havent a clue at what you doing horses arnt a toy and you cant play with them espeically youngsters go get something you can learn on and enjoy

give it up selll them now while you can becuase at this rate the worth peanuts

iam thinking the farrier probabaly saved your life

[HorsesRMe]

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but from what I see, if your horse does not respect you, they will not listen. All you need to do is spend a couple days in the round pen with her. Don't hire someone else to do it either, you'd be the perfect person for it. All you do is separate her from the other horses, and once or twice a day put her in a round pen. When in there, she will presumeabley run away from you. chase her. don't smack her, or anything like that. raise up your hands and make her run. Get her to run. If she stops, run at her again. Make her run, even if she wants to stop. After she tries to stop a few times. Let her. If you did it right, she will come towards you. She will realize that YOU are the dominent one and that if she disobeys you, you can make her stay obidient. After that, she will respect you and any time she acts out again, do it and it will make your bond stronger. This is usualy the kind of training you will get when you send your horse off to a training barn, and you just got a lesson for free!

[Coup De Des]

I smell a Troll...... It's official.

[pinkngreen]

You need to join 4-H or pony club so you and your family can get some guidance before you totally ruin your horses. Having an instructor isn't enough because they generally don't have the time to teach you more than just riding. 4-H or pony club can teach you about proper horsemanship.

Just a hint about why your mare doesn't do well for a farrier. If farriers are beating her then she won't like farriers that's why you can pick up her feet and they can't. The horse knows the difference between you and a strange person.

[Coup De Des]

I would drug my horse with so many elephant tranqs that he just lay down and then the farrier could like, sit down and do his feet. I could practise my madonna moves when he's done too.

ZooPharmacy.com.... It's what's good for you.

You might have to borrow your mum's credit card.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Instead...
-you could help by giving advice on how to get Sheza used to being worked with my a farrier...

Why don't you ask the person you are taking lessons from? From what I read, Sheeza has had some traumatic experiences with farriers, and that has caused a fear reflex, which causes more traumatic experiences with farriers, and the whole thing has snowballed. She needs a knowledgeable, kind, and patient hand to help her if she is ever going to change her behavior. Rough handling is only going to make it worse.

-Offer advice to where to find farriers

Ask other horseowners in the area. Surely your "trainer" might have some names for you? Besides, by now I am certain you have been inundated with PM's with names of farriers in your area. You aren't the only person in Kansas who posts here.

-what should a farrier do when the horses backs and just pulls away?

I'm not a farrier, but I would think the best way to stop that is to figure out why the horse is backing up in the first place and address THAT problem. Why do you flinch when you hit your funny bone? Because you hit your funny bone! Don't hit your funny bone and - ta daaah! - you won't flinch! Your mare is OBVIOUSLY afraid of the farrier. She isn't afraid of having her feet touched, she is afraid of the farrier. Find a farrier that is willing to work with her, or (here's an idea) SEND HER TO A TRAINER that can help her with this problem.

[Coup De Des]

nah... just drug the horse. Hey she'd probably be a really good ride if she was drugged. Real quiet and sweet.

[hitchinmygetalong]

nah... just drug the horse. Hey she'd probably be a really good ride if she was drugged. Real quiet and sweet.

Coup De Des, not everyone can discern the difference between unsound advice and sarcasm.

[Linda513]

I don't understand this. Why does this girl have these horses? My daughter is almost 14 and when we were in the market for a horse to lease I looked for a horse that was well behaved, stood still for the farrier and for clipping, didn't spook at anything, walked nicely into and out of the trailer, got along with horses and people, etc. How dare this girls parents buy her these two horses. They are accomplises to this abuse. That might seem like a strong statement, but animal abuse is illegal last time I checked. Is this stuff really happening, or does she just want attention?

[matryoshka]

I agree, sedate the mare. You are all worried about the cut on the mare, while the farrier was the one trying to deal with flailing feet. He should probably have walked away. I'm sure he didn't intend to produce a cut on the horse.

I'm unusual in that I'm willing to trim horses that act up. I trim one filly where I'm the only one who can do her feet. She rears straight up, and it isn't fun. She kicks, too. She's dangerouse enough that I prefer to trim her without a handler. I put her in the round pen and do "bondering" until she stands still for me to approach and pick up her feet. She still rears and runs off, so it takes maybe 45 minutes to an hour to get her done. This is for a trim, and it has to be done each and every time, unless she is sedated. I also managed to train this same mare to go under saddle.

The difference between me and other farriers are many. 1. I trim part time and it is a secondary income. 2. I enjoy training. 3. I've trained a number of horses from start to finish, including having their feet handled.

And still, I have met my match where hoof handling is concerned. A friend recently purchased two draft horses from auction, and they will not let me even clean their back feet. One kicked me and I had a welt for a week. We're talking hooves that are 8 inches across. I tried him again a couple of days ago, and this time he tried to stomp on me, then tried to kick.

Farriers and trimmers deal with this every day. We sometimes smack a horse if the handler isn't helping us. I've accidentally smacked one or two with a rasp in my hand. Each time it was too late to stop the swing, but I did make sure the flat of the rasp touched the horse. I always apologize to the owner and pet the horse. But it doesn't happen unless the horse is being really rude and trying to hurt me in some way.

You guys are acting like the farrier, unprovoked, wailed off and hit the horse for no reason. I agree, he should have walked away. Was anybody worried whether the guy got hurt in the process? Did he get kicked, or maybe have his foot ground into the dirt? Horses do a lot to us when we are under there that the holder can be oblivious to.

Without exception, my horses all behave beautifully for me and yet would test the farrier. I take this into account when I trim a client's horse. I can watch the horse politely pick up its feet to be cleaned by the owner and then give me the dickens when I go to trim it. That's life. I don't blame the owner unless it is obvious they aren't working with the horse at all.

I don't normally post opinions like this because it gets me in trouble. Farriers are NOT horse trainers, unless it is somebody like me who doesn't mind. Those of you who think the farrier is a horse abuser need to go out and hold some other horses' feet in the farrier hold for the length of time it takes to trim. See whether you keep your cool under all circumstances. Oh, and picture yourself doing a good, thorough job on the ones who are wiggley, pull their feet violently away, lean on you, stomp on your feet, and kick. If the horse doesn't stand still, hold each foot for an extra 2-5 minutes, since it takes longer to trim under these circumstances.

I know it is a job we choose, but most of us prefer to work on well behaved horses. We don't want to go home with bumps, bruises, missing toenails, cuts, and maybe a broken bone.

Again, next time, sedate the horse and avoid these problems at all.

[goeslikestink]

i surgest you all go back and read the paragraph again--

she said that the horse was being a pita mare and that the farrier was holding her when rearring anoither words he took control of the horse from her--

secound she condtricts herself and say she picking up sheaza feet but remeber the horsde was reearing with the farrier then in next statement says she went back to farrier of whome sheaze was being a pita mare

well i think the horse would have fallen over dont you how can one pick up hind legs if fronts are in the air

the farrier i think saw she had trouble and saved her life from gettin her head done in--

most would have walked away and let her get on with it as itisnt thre problem but this kind hearrty soul saw she was in a heap a shit -- and then she flames him-- and that i think is the truth--- i think the farrier jumped in and took control of a bad situation -- and had to do whatever toget it under control -- remeber first staement my mare was a pita mare and rearing and backing up and rearng---

dont jump on the farrier ---

[Coup De Des]

or you could beat her real good so she knows to behave for the farrier.

You mustn't have hit her hard enough.

[YankeeLawyer]

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but from what I see, if your horse does not respect you, they will not listen. All you need to do is spend a couple days in the round pen with her. Don't hire someone else to do it either, you'd be the perfect person for it. All you do is separate her from the other horses, and once or twice a day put her in a round pen. When in there, she will presumeabley run away from you. chase her. don't smack her, or anything like that. raise up your hands and make her run. Get her to run. If she stops, run at her again. Make her run, even if she wants to stop. After she tries to stop a few times. Let her. If you did it right, she will come towards you. She will realize that YOU are the dominent one and that if she disobeys you, you can make her stay obidient. After that, she will respect you and any time she acts out again, do it and it will make your bond stronger. This is usualy the kind of training you will get when you send your horse off to a training barn, and you just got a lesson for free!

Sorry, I disagree. This horse, from DJ's description, is not displaying dominance issues. Quite the opposite, actually. Perhaps yo uhave not followed DJ's posts but I do not think she is the one to take on round pen training without trainer supervision. IMO, a little knowledge is dangerous.

[YankeeLawyer]

You guys are acting like the farrier, unprovoked, wailed off and hit the horse for no reason. I agree, he should have walked away. Was anybody worried whether the guy got hurt in the process? Did he get kicked, or maybe have his foot ground into the dirt? Horses do a lot to us when we are under there that the holder can be oblivious to.

We are only responding to the facts as given. Because this is an internet BB, a lot of the time we only are given part of the story. Onthe facts as given, in my opinion this farrier was abusive.

Personally, I would not hesitate to sedate a horse to keep the farrier safe. 1cc of Domesedan; it works. But I do not think DJ is qualified to do this without a vet present, and it does not appear that that is an option for her.

[LoriO]

Well said Yankeelawyer. A little round pen work, especially by the OP is definately NOT the answer here. Horsesrme, do a search of some of DressageJunkies other posts and you will understand why.