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CT-toddler badly bitten by horse

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  • Originally posted by MistyBlue
    I'm glad you find it hard to believe...I wish the moron father also found it hard to believe anyone could be soooo stupid. It was the barn where I worked out of/trained out of/showed out of and started out of. I spent 12 years there, in the 70's and 80's. This happened...ohhh...about mid 80's. I was one of the people who told the father repeatedly to not climb into the paddocks since I was one of the barn managers at the time. I was there the night they brought the ambulance down there. I was standing there while the father was babbling, "But I only wanted his picture on the horse! I can't believe this, it was only for a second!" Understandably, father was in tears. The little boy's name was Gino...I remember that because the father kept saying, "I'm so sorry Gino, Daddy's so sorry." Huntertwo on this Bb was at the same barn in her childhood...she can also tell you how often things like this happened there. If you have more time on your hands than I do...it might still be found in a search of court records for Southington CT. The barn's name in the suit was Pleasant View.
    I'd *greatly* appreciate the same courtesy in return when disagreeing with someone online. Methinks I do not embellish or have an active imagination. (a polite way to intimate I might be lying, thankyouverymuch) Especially after saying one of my posts was a load of crap because you assumed I was saying horses do not feel or think...when I clearly stated they don't reason in human terms. I appreciate the different viewpoint, yet since you're close to my age there is a way to have a differing point of view without insulting the other person for their point of view or their factual happening.
    If you have never come across foolish unthinking behavior in the equine business from the general public, then I applaud you for your nirvana-like area of the world. I've been in the equine business off and on for about 3 decades now. I do not think the general public is particularly stupid...but I do know they tend to leave common sense behind and cause horrific accidents when it comes to something like horses that fuel many an adult's child-like responses. I'm also a huge embassador for the equine sport and for the equine related legislation in this area. Part of advocating it though includes educating people on the inherent danger of horses.
    I didn't bother to post anything else on the other thread, but since you had to bring it up...here's what you typed referring to horses:
    They're not capable of cognitive thought.
    Here's a definition of cognitive: Refers to the mental process by which knowledge is acquired and used. And another: Refers to the ability to think, learn and remember. And another: brain functions related to sense perception or understanding.

    Horses are clearly capable of all of the above, otherwise we wouldn't be able to train them. It was only that one sentence in your post that I was referring to, and maybe you didn't mean to use the word cognitive and maybe there is a better word or phrase to express what you were trying to say, but that was the word you used and in the context in which you used it I found it incorrect based on the above definitions, with which I was already familiar. Apparently my comment based on the above sentence upset you quite a bit and for that I apologize. I can't understand how any of that found its way over here, so I've tried to keep this brief since it is unrelated to the present discussion.
    As far as our ages go, I have no idea how old you are nor do I know how either of our ages is relevant. If you found any of my post in this thread insulting, I apologize for the insult as well.
    As far as I know, ESG, the only thing I've ever agreed with Thomas on is that horsepeople need to be ambassadors for the sport. And this makes us kin? Even if you are "only messing" I don't get it and I'm sure something snarky or insulting was meant by it. Thanks.
    [/SIZE]
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

    Comment


    • ESG - I completely understand how you could have lost your temper. A few years ago we were having problems with people trying to feed our horses over the fence, so we put electric tape on the top. Did that stop them? NO! Instead the neighbors let a little girl (not their daughter, but a friends) about four go out into their back yard with baby carrots to feed to my guys through the fence unsupervised. Well the worst thing that could have happend did. My QH gelding, whom was not allowed to have treats, promptly bit the tip of her finger OFF! I am not talking about just a little bit of skin, it was all the way down to the first knuckle. It was in no way my geldings fault, he was not a mean horse in anyway, but he had been over fed treats by his previous owner, so he got nippy when you gave them to him.

      Unfortunately people do not stop to consider the possible ramifications of feeding horses they do not know treats. What if the horse had an allergy? Or the horse was aggressive? You just never know.

      My horses were behind my fence and they were properly secured, so the family did not sue. I wish that the general public was better educated on how to act around horses. They can be dangerous animals and unfortunately, due to the actions of non-horse people, they can seriously hurt people, as in the case of the little boy getting bit in the face.

      Comment


      • Well, that is terrible, but unfortunately it is not the worst thing that could've happened. I hope the parents are counting their lucky stars. But, was it a girl or a boy?
        "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
        http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

        Comment


        • The Stallion didn't happen to be the Appy owned by Debbie M. was it? By the mid 80s I did move my horse, but she was going on vacation and asked me to take care of him for a few days. He was a typical young stallion and I didn't take my eyes off him for a second. He was gorgeous though
          No, it wasn't Jeopardy. Wasn't he a looker? That horse changed colors more than any App I've ever met before in my life. Jep wasn't the "free pony ride" stallion...but Jep did do a job on another worker/boarder there. Bit her right on the top of her head...teeth on either side of her temples. The bite victim also had an App mare there, and for the life of me I cannot remember that little App mare's name. Cute as a button, heckuva ride and had that typical App tail with about 5 hairs on it. Blue roan with varnish.
          The studly dude was Rebel. Something Buddy picked up...that should give you an idea on his personality. He wasn't a stud for long...just until after breeding 4 of the mares there.

          Jackie...not sure if anyone else would find it insulting...and I'm not normally one who takes offense easily at all since I'm usually pretty happy go lucky. However it was implied quite obviously that I was embellishing or imagining the whole thing. Unfortunately, I wasn't doing either.
          You jump in the saddle,
          Hold onto the bridle!
          Jump in the line!
          ...Belefonte

          Comment


          • No it was not the worst thing that could have happend, but it was horrible. This little girl is permently scared because of lack of judgement by her parents. And it is a horrible feeling knowing that your horse just injured a child in such a way whether or not it was the horse fault or not. But on the plus side, the neighbors no longer pet or try to feed the horses treats.

            It was very embaressing when we had to call the other neighbors with small children and tell them to not let their kids mess with the horses. Most people just don't understand that it was not the horses fault.

            Comment


            • i used to work with a naturalist who, when teaching classes about wetland animals (snakes, turtles, frogs, fish, etc) at the nature center we worked for, would tell the visitors:

              "Remember, anything that has a mouth can bite you."

              I think I probably say that once a day at my current barn, if not more. When I have my own farm, I'm posting that sentence on signs all over the barn. I do agree that horses should not bite and expect that well trained and well socialized horses will not bite, but unfortunately, that doesn't mean they can't or don't make a mistake and get some finger along with the carrot, or a hand that's too close to the fly they were nipping.

              I'm sort of cringing at all the people who are overly "kind" to the uneducated. I have had the most success with playing it straight - sooner or later, people will learn that even a sweet horse can make a mistake, and a horse is big enough and strong enough so that even his honest mistake can cause an injury. Until someone learns to read the horse's signals and anticipate and avoid problems, I prefer for them to be extra cautious. To this end, I tell even my little beginners that horses can bite, can kick, can stomp, etc - and even if they don't mean to hurt you, it's possible that they can do so. We start teaching safety measures immediately, as soon as a client enters the barn the first time. Barn rules (including safety measures) are posted on every wall.

              For 'trespassers' or uninvolved visitors (and young children), the message is even more succinct:

              "Do not touch the horses. Do not feed the horses. You are welcome to be in area X, Y, or Z - you are not to be in area A, B, or C." This is one time in my entire life when I do not say "please." Fortunately for us, the barn I work at is well back from the road - if a car rolls up and we don't know who it is, the barn manager watches with an eagle eye until we find out and address it. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only way to deal with random 'visitors.' I would hope that barns who are less blessed in their geographic location would have some sort of management plan that deterred or prevented unsupervised 'visits' - as much for the safety of horses and facilities as for the safety of the public.

              Having worked extensively at summer camps (liability nightmare world!) I have to say it's amazing what facility operators can be considered responsible for, and the extent to which people will blame their misfortune on others is disturbing. The best way to protect ourselves and our horses probably is to take a pretty strong approach with signs and other measures to prevent unsupervised contact with the animals, and be loud and clear with our liability statements, waivers, and other legal documentation. In order to get laws to protect us and our animals, we have to know them and live up to them. Just one more "hat" for horsefolks to wear!
              Fun equestrian t-shirts designed by a rider like you:
              http://skreened.com/laughinglion

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JackieBlue
                As far as I know, ESG, the only thing I've ever agreed with Thomas on is that horsepeople need to be ambassadors for the sport. And this makes us kin? Even if you are "only messing" I don't get it and I'm sure something snarky or insulting was meant by it. Thanks.
                [/SIZE]
                JB, honey, lighten up. And grow a sense of humor. They're nice.
                In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                A life lived by example, done too soon.
                www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                Comment


                • Warning - rant. Do not read if you're a friend to the horsey-ignorant.

                  Originally posted by tullio
                  I'm sort of cringing at all the people who are overly "kind" to the uneducated.
                  Only sort of? This attitude scares me to death.

                  You tell someone not to pet or feed a horse - any horse. They give you lip. They do not realize that you're not being snarky for snarky's sake; they only know that you're trying to stop them doing something they want to do. They don't know (or don't care, or don't think it can happen to them) that they can get injured if they continue on their present course. We, as horse people, know this. We are attempting to educate the ignorant in the ways of horses, but we get ignored and/or vilified if we attempt to do so, because the ignorant don't want to hear the words "no" or "don't" or "you can't". So, we horsemen are supposed to just keep quietly saying, "But you really can get hurt, you know", while @$$hat John or Jane Q. Public blithely ignores our advice? Um, no. Feel free to let someone stupid (and yes, they go from "ignorant" to "stupid" when they get testy ) keep messing with your horses after you've told them "No!", but I won't. They could hurt our horses, they could get injured, they could get injured and sue, and then we'd be left without those tempting ponies because we'd be in the f*&king poorhouse because of a lawsuit. That we could have prevented if we got bitchy, or snarky, or rude, or whatever it takes to make morons keep their hands off our horses.

                  I feel no obligation whatsoever to continue to be courteous to someone who insists on handling my property in a dangerous or inappropriate way. If I say "Don't touch", I damned well mean it. You get one chance, then I get mad. I don't play with the welfare of my animals, any of my animals. I don't give a shit if their feelings are hurt. If they had any sense of courtesy or propriety, they'd have kept their hands off my horses the first time I asked, instead of pushing the issue. If not, it's too late to educate them anyway.
                  Last edited by ESG; May. 30, 2006, 06:55 AM.
                  In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                  A life lived by example, done too soon.
                  www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MistyBlue
                    No, it wasn't Jeopardy. Wasn't he a looker? That horse changed colors more than any App I've ever met before in my life. Jep wasn't the "free pony ride" stallion...but Jep did do a job on another worker/boarder there. Bit her right on the top of her head...teeth on either side of her temples. The bite victim also had an App mare there, and for the life of me I cannot remember that little App mare's name. Cute as a button, heckuva ride and had that typical App tail with about 5 hairs on it. Blue roan with varnish.
                    The studly dude was Rebel. Something Buddy picked up...that should give you an idea on his personality. He wasn't a stud for long...just until after breeding 4 of the mares there.

                    Jackie...not sure if anyone else would find it insulting...and I'm not normally one who takes offense easily at all since I'm usually pretty happy go lucky. However it was implied quite obviously that I was embellishing or imagining the whole thing. Unfortunately, I wasn't doing either.
                    Only other App I remember was Lady, also called Ladybug... was that her?
                    MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"
                    http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...wo/009_17A.jpg

                    Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                    Comment


                    • I haven't needed to get "snarky" or bitchy about it. Of course, I have perfected the evil eye in all those years of camping.

                      I don't need to fight with the misbehaving visitor - fighting would suggest that there is some need for me to prove myself right. I don't mind being blunt about the situation, but I certainly won't be yelling, getting red in the face, flapping my arms, or otherwise causing a stir. The following have worked nicely:

                      - "I like you, and I don't want you to get hurt accidently. Stop (doing what you're doing) right now."

                      - First offense: "We do not feed our horses treats." Second offense: "Our barn rules state that the horses don't get treats. If that's a problem for you, please leave the barn." To me, this is like saying if you have a problem with my house rule against writing on the wall, I'd like you to leave. Not bitchy, just playing straight. In my experience people have either been so shocked that they walked out in a daze, or have bitched and moaned as they walked out. As they are obviously imbeciles, their bitching does not bother me. ;-)

                      - "Horse weighs half a ton, has teeth *this big*, and does not speak English. You need to step away from him." You don't have to leave, but you have to back up. After you have backed up, you can tell me all about how the trail ride you took when you were eleven means you are an expert horse person, and I will then (after you are out of harms way) artfully explain to you that even 'experienced' horsefolks can have accidents and our facility policy is that you may only interact with your own horse when unsupervised. (If you refuse to step away from the horse, then I will ask you to leave. Again, within the barn rules - not me flipping out and getting mad, simply abiding by the rules we have imposed for everyone's safety.)

                      I have not yet had anyone refuse to stop what they were doing more than once. If it happens, I think I would remove the horse from the situation (if he's out in the aisle, but him in his stall, if he's in an open stall, close his winter door, etc) until the visitor was dealt with.

                      I'm worried about ya, ESG - don't want the blood pressure up too high! Firmly, clearly stating and enforcing your barn rules or the rules for your personal horse does not make you a bitch, and those that would call you as much are not worth the upset. Get them out of the situation and then shake it off. You know you're doing them a favor!
                      Fun equestrian t-shirts designed by a rider like you:
                      http://skreened.com/laughinglion

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mtn trails
                        Coming in a little late here but horses yes, are totally unpredictable. I was haltering one of my horses in his stall and his buddy next door reached over the wall and poked him in the butt. My horse swung his head around and smashed me in the face, right above the left eye. I went down and was seeing stars while horse just looked at me. Result was a grossly huge black eye, couldn't see out of it for 3 days, and DH got a bad rap for punching me. JK.

                        Horses are never totally trustworthy although we'd like them to be. I never would have thought Dakota would have done that but when he swung his head, my face just happened to be in the way.
                        I would have said that was pretty predictable! If someone poked me in the butt I'd swing my head round to see what it was I think you might have meant you were surprised and didn't foresee it - quite different to unpredictable!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ESG
                          Perhaps JackieBlue and Thomas are kin?

                          Only messing.
                          No problem with being categorised with someone from what I see thinks:

                          You should be rude to people
                          Horse riders are not an elite race
                          You should educate not insult

                          Your intended insult is therefore wasted on me - perhaps just the same as they are on others judging from your previous accounts of your experience.

                          Comment


                          • You don't ASSume much, do you Thomas?

                            Do please read for comprehension. Language barrier aside, I think you should be able to decipher my meaning from my posts. They're not that esoteric.

                            I made an observation. No insult, just an observation, since the two of you seem to agree on most points. IF that's insulting to you, that's your problem.
                            In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                            A life lived by example, done too soon.
                            www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tullio
                              I'm worried about ya, ESG - don't want the blood pressure up too high! Firmly, clearly stating and enforcing your barn rules or the rules for your personal horse does not make you a bitch, and those that would call you as much are not worth the upset. Get them out of the situation and then shake it off. You know you're doing them a favor!
                              You're right. This is just one point that's really, really sore with me. I've spent so much time with horses in boarding barns with easy public access that I'm just way over trying to educate. And in the last of these, the worst ones to educate were the owners of the facility. They saw nothing wrong with having horses tied by the bridles (roping competition - some cowboys were too cheap to pay for stalls ), with their hindquarters facing the pedestrian walkway. And we're not talking one or two horses here; fifteen to twenty, tied on each side of the aisle, and parents bringing little ones and even babies in strollers right behind these horses. The non-horse-savvy management couldn't understand why I went through the roof when I saw that. Not to mention the fact that we boarders were expected to lead our horses through said aisleways, a gauntlet of QH hindquarters just waiting to let fly. Not just us, but the lesson kids as well.

                              Now that I've got my own place, the problem is non-existent. If someone can't behave themselves and follow my rules while on my property, they're invited to leave. Simple as that. Life is grand.
                              In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                              A life lived by example, done too soon.
                              www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                              Comment


                              • ESG: Nip it all in the bud, get a big dog.

                                I didn't get this big stupid hairball for the express purpose of running off strangers, I swear. And he certainly hasn't done anything that I would specifically consider dangerous or vicious. Once he gets to know you, he will lick you silly. But he is big and he does bark! (his name is Monster for a reason)
                                Apparently on Sunday when I wasn't home, the BF and the dog were outside playing and mowing the lawn. My barn was once a trail ride hack barn, and still has a very large sign on the drive, tho there's nothing to indicate that we do rides now. I had two ponies in the front paddock along the road, which is always an attraction. A car pulled up to the driveway gate and some chick got out to look at the girls. Nothing too major, just eyeballing. I guess she saw Mike and decided to walk up towards him, perhaps to aske questions. Fine, Ok, no problem. NOt to Monster it wasn't, who took off straight for that car barking. Mike said he's never seen anyone run that fast before!

                                I'm going to have to get a tie-out cable when I hang out the "boarding' shingle!! He's going to chase off all the customers!!

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by EqTrainer
                                  Horses should not bite people. Those people who keep horses that bite and justify it, are crazy IMO.
                                  And what should we "crazy" people do with our biters? We have a little horse that's close to 20 years old who will try to take your hand, head or whatever off if you come near his stall, but he's fine once you get the halter on him. We've had him about 5 years and from what I can gather of his history he was a Polo pony that was dumped at an auction, kept in a backyard pasture for a year or so and then we got him.

                                  It's a private farm, but when people are visiting we have a sign that says he will bite and for people to stay back.
                                  http://lessismore17.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • "Those people who keep horses that bite and justify it, are crazy IMO."


                                    I don't understand this sentence - I don't see anyone here justifying any horse's vice. But some horses do have vices - whether or not the present owner is responsible for that vice is not the point. Why is such a person crazy? Do we euthanize any horse that displays less than perfect behavior at all times?

                                    The law in CT may be different than Virginia - but in Virginia animal bites are reported to Animal Control by the attending physican- the animal must be quarantined and you have to fill out a lot of paperwork - then Animal Control does follow up with you about the animal. I'd be very surprised if CT did not have similar procedures for animal bites; particularly if the bite was from a mammal, a physician/hospital was involved, etc. If nothing else - the animal owner would be required to prove the animal had a rabies vaccination so that the child did not have to have rabies shots.

                                    Upon further reflection, I can see how even a loving nip from a horse might prove to be very harmful for a small child - particularly on the face. So perhaps, in this case - the "bite" was a horse snuffling the child's hair and then the horse gave the child little nip on the cheek or something - that could cause a bad hematoma.

                                    I just have this vision of a clueless parent trespassing, holding their small child up to cuddle the face of a strange 1200 lb horse, and that horse nuzzling and then playfully nipping the child in the face.

                                    Perhaps stegall could tell us what the law is in CT on animal bites.

                                    As horse owners - we do have to strike a balance between wanting to be good ambassadors and protecting ourselves from liability.

                                    The 3 year old came over for her "pony ride" - and though she was a decent kid - after telling her 6 times to stop walking up to the stalls and slapping each horse's nose (she thought it was funny that they'd throw their heads up in fright) - I had to ask her father (who was standing right next to me thet whole time) to please ask his daughter to stop scaring the horses. She got her pony ride and left with a stack of horse magazines and a bag of warm brownies and I was glad. I was very nice and happy to see her interested in horses and told her father where he could obtain lessons for his daughter.

                                    Hopefully those lesson horses won't mind being hit in the face. Mine sure did - and one almost tried to take her hand off after she walked up to smack him for the 3rd time.
                                    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                                    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                                    -Rudyard Kipling

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                                    • Originally posted by J Swan
                                      The 3 year old came over for her "pony ride" - and though she was a decent kid - after telling her 6 times to stop walking up to the stalls and slapping each horse's nose (she thought it was funny that they'd throw their heads up in fright) - I had to ask her father (who was standing right next to me thet whole time) to please ask his daughter to stop scaring the horses.
                                      Geeze, parents never CEASE to amaze me. You've got more patience than I would have - if the little brat didn't heed me on the FIRST try she'd have been over my knee getting fanny-whacked herself!
                                      "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

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                                      • Originally posted by War Admiral
                                        Geeze, parents never CEASE to amaze me. You've got more patience than I would have - if the little brat didn't heed me on the FIRST try she'd have been over my knee getting fanny-whacked herself!
                                        Actually, I was thinking that punching Daddy in the face each time after the first one might make an impact on him that his job was parenting/supervising the kid.

                                        Kid whacks horse, you whack daddy.

                                        No wonder so many kids get bitten by dogs. Used to be that parents asked, "What did you do to the dog?" and now they alert the media and want the dog put down. (And yeah, I differentiate between a warning nip/bite and a full-fledged attack.)
                                        Delicious strawberry flavored death!

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                                        • We went to a big horse show yesterday afternoon and when the heavy horse team turnouts were going round the arena there were 5 kids had gone through the safety barrier and were playing between that and the ropes at the arena side. Generally throwing rubbish about and just being ignorant louts.

                                          Their father and mother kept saying "Darren stop that" "Sherry come here" Darren and Sherry were clearly treating everything their parents said with contempt and didn't even look up! Their parents never reinforced their words nor insisted that they do what they were told. Indeed they started to try to negotiate with their children !

                                          In the end I leant over and said firmly "Darren this is your first and last chance, if you don't get out of there now you will be in serious trouble" Darren moved very quickly ! And my 5 year old grandson said "oh and he means it"

                                          Once his parents had gathered them all up and gone out of the way we had an enjoyable afternoon with our well-behaved though boisterous grandchildren and my eldest grandson chattering away to me like an old man about how badly behaved some children are and how their mummy and daddy were not very good

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