CT-toddler badly bitten by horse

[stegall]

wow, I never expected my post to generate such a thread. Like everyone here, I know only what is in the article, and have no information beyond that, which leaves me with many questions. I am sad for all involved, the child, the farm owner, and the horse too. This is one of those situations where no one wins

My original reason for posting (before I had to go away and not stay with the thread) is part informational, and part educational. I was hoping that this would make everyone stop and consider their situations (I know it did for me).

Whether you are a public facility or not, are there potential disasters waiting for you? Do you carry enough insurance, is your property posted, are there things you haven't considered?

I'm a little disappointed about the heat being generated though; we are all horse people, we should look at the incident with sadness regardless of the reason. Most of the points I have seen raised here are good ones: do what you can to protect yourselves and your horses. That includes not only educating and warning the general public, but also trying as much as you can to create a safe situation by teaching your horse manners, and requiring safe practices from those who enter your property.

I don't think there is an absolute zone of safety though: we can only do our best and then hope nothing happens. We can, however be vigilent.

Although it never ceases to amaze me, that there are people out there who take huge and uneccesary risks, yet nothing ever happens. Then you have folks who are meticulous about everything, and a meteorite falls on them
(I would be of the latter group).

For those who are priting this article out and distributing as a lesson, I'm glad to hear it. The accident you might prevent will be worth it.

I am watching this and will report back if there are any updates or more information becomes available. Again--still waiting to get more info that would shed some light on what happened.

[ESG]

I appreciate that we may be divided by a common language but a commercial facility means that someone somewhere is making money from a business. Now I presume by "private boarding facilty" you mean what we call a D-I-Y livery yard. In which case its the Yard owner that is running a commercial interest and both he/she and the horse owner has legal liabilities and responsibilities

"Commercial" is not synonymous with "public", in any language.

Just because someone's making money at boarding/training/breeding, does not give the general public the right to trespass onto private property and interfere with animals they don't own and know nothing about. If you doubt this, just try wandering onto a construction site and monkeying around with their machinery. You'll be snatched up and not-so-cordially invited to leave the premises in a New York minute. It's commercial, yes, but it's private, and dangerous, and you have no right to be there. Exactly the same scenario, yet people think nothing of dealing with dangerous "machines" that happen to have minds of their own, when they lean over the fence (that probably has warning signs on it ) or into the stall to pet the pretty pony.

As others have said, if it isn't yours, don't touch it. Or, if you want to touch it, ask the person who it belongs to if you can touch it. I doubt, from your description, that Scotland is such a social wilderness that these are alien concepts. Here in the Colonies, we're unfortunately not as socially advanced and must be ready to educate the non-horsey public as to the dangers of dealing with 1000lb+ animals that they don't know. That is, if we're allowed to educate; that usually doesn't happen, as has been eloquently illustrated throughout this discussion.

JMO.

[JackieBlue]

Father told repeatedly over a 2 month period (talked to at least once weekly during that time) to please not climb fence into paddocks with horses so he can take a photo of his young toddler with a horse. Was even told he could kindly bring toddler into premises by front gate for a pony ride and photo shoot. Father assumed he'd be charged money for it, so eventually drove around back of property and snuck through woods to find a single horse turned out. Climbed fence, approached horse with 3 year old son, placed son on horse's back and backed up to snap a photo. Horse continued grazing, took a step and toddler slid off. Breaking arm and collar bone. Father sued for harboring dangerous animal, attractive nuissance, damages and pain and suffering. Admitted to trespass and admitted to being repeatedly asked not to and being told of how chancy approaching unknown animals can be. Won suit anyways. Child was lucky since the "single horse" was out back alone for a reason, it was a stud.

I find this VERY hard to believe. Methinks someone has a very active imagination or likes to embellish quite a bit.

[Kafue]

I have electric fencing around the perimeter of my paddocks which keeps the horses and well-meaning folks separated quite nicely. I encourage my horses to be friendly to people, especially children. Even when I am hacking on public trails I am always conscious that I am an ambassador for horsebacking riding and horses in general and anybody I meet with a child who wants to stroke my horse I will stop and let them (while the parent holds them). Of course a child will be attracted to horses...... weren't you all children once!!! The parent may have been careless but I am also guilty of lifting my grandchildren to pet my horses all the time. Any horse that would take a chunk out of a human on purpose would not be on my property for any longer than it would take to get it into a trailer and out of there and if it was mine it would be crossing the rainbow bridge right about now.


[/QUOTE]
And by the way, I have photos of me in nappies on a 17 hand hunter and my daughters sat on mine when they were toddlers and my grandchildren also sit on my hunters, eventers and point to pointers.

And I DON'T have a petting zoo - I have a commercial equestrian centre with WELL BEHAVED, WELL TRAINED normal horses[/QUOTE]

I agree and for anyone wondering.... the word in the above sentence "nappies" translates into "diapers".

[ESG]

I find this VERY hard to believe. Methinks someone has a very active imagination or likes to embellish quite a bit.

I don't. It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that "NO!" really means, "But you can do it if I don't see you.".

I've told this story before, but it bears on this discussion. Along with my others and my clients' horses, I had a very sweet, very piggy Arab gelding in a very busy boarding barn. I came around the corner of the aisle one Sunday afternoon, to see a woman with a bag of carrot and apple slices (yes, she took the time to bite-size the treats), feeding my horse and cooing at him. When I suggested that she not feed the horse, and that he'd been known to bite, her reply was, "Oh, he won't bite me!" and then promptly turned her back on me and resumed cooing and feeding. I responded by asking her if she'd asked the owners if she had their permission to feed the horse. Her response was, "Oh, I'm sure they won't mind!". That's when I lost my temper. I told her that I was the owner, that I damned well did mind, and to stop feeding my horse and any others on my aisle at once. She finally gave up and slunk away, muttering dire imprecations at me under her breath. I'm sure she thought I was the original barn bitch from hell, but I could care less.

I could give you chapter and verse, and go on and on with examples of this behaviour throughout my association with horses, but it would threaten the bandwidth.

[WW_Queen]

My bf has a three year old. When we go to the barn, bf and little guy stay WELL BACK. My bf knows nothing about horses (literally) and it's that uncertainty that makes him go "Hmmm, if I'm not sure about what these animals are about, I'm going to keep myself and son away from them!"

I am happy to let little guy pet horse...me holding him up, horse in cross ties, on the neck/shoulder. Nowhere near the face EVER.

Personally I get apprehensive when he's around ANY unfamiliar animal. He is never farther than arm's reach away when he DOES decide to pat someone's Fluffy or Rover.

As a co-parent, it seems pretty obvious to me what are good ideas and bad ideas. I feel sad for children such as this whom are injured by preventable accidents. I feel badly for the unknowing parent who will feel terrible forever that they put their child in harms way. I also feel badly for the BO and horse's owner, whose (probably) average horse is labelled as dangerous and the owner as careless. I curse the world's litigious ways and the lack of personal accountability and responsibility. I long for the days when you could let your children roam the neighbourhood with their friends and not worried about them being snatched off the street in broad daylight.

*sigh*

Personally, I am going to go home, wrap my bf's child in bubble wrap. Then I shall go to the barn and wrap my horse with it too.

Perhaps I'll get some sleep at night after that?

[JackieBlue]

I am really not meaning to incite anything here or to be confrontational, but why the snarkiness? Why ask her if she's spoken to the owners when you know she hasn't and you're the owner? Why go out of your way to make anyone feel like an idiot? Why not just tell her, "That's my horse. He's on a special diet and I'd prefer that you not feed him those tidbits."
"Burning" a non-horseperson who's reaching out like that will likely stay with the spurned one for quite sometime. The more people we have on our side, the longer we chance to have land to ride on and good relations with our non-horsey neighbors. I honestly don't get why so many horsepeople think it's okay, or even cool, to be catty and rude with others. And then they rationalize their behavior as "just being blunt" or simply "not sugar coating" what they have to say. But I do get why horsepeople are commonly deemed elitist snobs. And this perception will do us no favors in the long run.

[ESG]

JackieBlue, I understand you're not trying to be snarky. Neither was I. I did ask her not to pet or feed the horse, because he bit. He did. And I get attitude? Sorry, but I tried twice to be polite to this person and she blew me off. That is not acceptable. It's my horse, I pay for it, and I get to say what happens to it. You can't educate someone who's determined to do whatever the hell they want with your property, and frankly, I'm tired of trying. And while I agree that we all need to be ambassadors for our sport, I prefer not to waste my time on someone who already knows it all.

[Pat]

Oh, Jackie, I'm quite sure this did happen. Because I've had to deal with this kind of moronic behavior before!! Some people just can't take no for an answer!!

As stated before, a past boarder of mine HAS caught people in a paddock trying to place children on the horses.

[Pat]

SuperSTB - what an entirely sensible and appropriate posting.

I appreciate that we may be divided by a common language but a commercial facility means that someone somewhere is making money from a business. Now I presume by "private boarding facilty" you mean what we call a D-I-Y livery yard. In which case its the Yard owner that is running a commercial interest and both he/she and the horse owner has legal liabilities and responsibilities

You're right, there is a difference in terminology!!

When you say commercial yard, I'm thinking you have a boarding type facility that offers board to either 'whomever' or to discipline specific individuals, and likely has a staff trainer/instuctor and has a unified structure of policy and procedure.

The DIY yard type places are not quite as prevalent as I believe they are in the UK. More's the pity since this type setup can be very nice! The DIY place has mulitple people running the daily chores, etc.

Either way, in the States, the property owner has the ultimate liability for what happens on thier property, commercial or not.

[SuperSTB]

I sense quite a bit of snarkiness and elitism too. People remember this when it comes time to protect our farms from development or changes in community by-laws or even the special interests of protecting or advancing our equine disciplines/causes.

Yes you own the horse, pay for the horse, etc etc. However 'suggesting' not to feed the horse? No, it a simple walk up to the person and TELL her- frankly, "I'm sorry, this is my horse and he is not allowed to have treats". End of discussion. Maybe one in a million persons would be arrogant enough to snap back at you- and if you happen to find that person.. good advance their education with making them listen to a speil on proper horse ettiquette.

Most horse people are NOT up front when strangers approach their animals and they may think they are- I see it all the time. You have to give clear cut 'instruction' or information.

[ESG]

I respectfully disagree.

This is my property. If someone came up and decided to take a ride on my bike that they just saw standing around, everyone would be incensed at their rudeness. Yet if one politely tells someone to desist in their actions regarding a live animal, they're being snarky? I think not.

[KimPeterson]

I have given a lot of people clear cut, "please" dont go in our pastures, please don't feed our horses, blah blah - at the old farm we even had one mother HANGING her baby over the electric fence (yes there was a sign) so the baby could get a closer look and touch the neck of my broodmare AHHHHHHHH ! Luckily she is a docile old soul but COME ON !@! I explained to her I was worried for her childs safety and horses where more like deer or cattle than dogs and where prone to unpredictable behaviour - I gave her the speech about swatting a fly and getting the kid...lalalala she was back the next day with carrots....

We sold that farm because of all the development aroudn it and more and more people crawling into the paddocks and over the fences we had crowds on weekends! It is now a 36 home subdivision and the old barn and house have been torn down.

Our NEW Farm - we are WAY back in the woods, and they still find us! Luckily the ticks in summer keep them from crawling through often - but after telling the kids that walk our trails to please not touch the horses, and not climb in the paddocks - they wouldn't listen and where SNEAKING after school - so I called the cops and had them take them back to their parents for tresspassing....if they get hurt what am I to do? I have stallions, mares, and at the time a couple foals here - this is not a public farm adn not a safe place for kids to play ""Lord of the rings"" - I use to give lessons at the old farm and understand kids - I would love to help them out but really the liabilty just isn't worth it - we have open space laws in NJ to keep our trails open and hopefully we will always have our own farm - we have this one up for sale now as we are moving further out yet again - this farm will probably be turned into another sub division.

[chai]

Jackieblue, I'm not sure if you board or keep your horses at home, but I will tell you from my own experience that the quote you question in your post could very well be true.
Most people enjoy the beauty of horses and I have neighbors who are very good about asking permission before they come over. But I will also tell you that my earlier post about finding the man in the field with his toddler on my farm is absolutely, positively true. He didn't put the child on the horse, as in the post you question, but he was IN the field with my mare who was so aggressive, she was turned out alone because she kicked and killed another horse and had started striking out at us. We were working with hormones to try and cool her jets, but she was a very dangerous horse. Just a few months ago, I drove in to find a man from the Dominical Republic parked in my yard with his adorable, but very mentally challenged daughter who was running up to the fence with her hands outstretched. My draft horse is a good boy, but he's a food-pig and he could have bitten her by mistake. He was a really nice man and we had a lovely visit, but what if I didn't happen to drive in when I did and the kid got hurt?
I enjoy sharing my horses with other people, and encouraging anyone who has the interest, but we do have to protect ourselves from either well meaning but clueless or just pushy people who could get themselves hurt on our property and ruin our lives, too.

[MHM]

Kim Peterson-

I'm curious about your experience with the police. Do you think you'd have a better position in a liability situation (with the same kids or others) since it was legally documented that people had already trespassed on your property?

I've had thoughts in the past about calling the police to report deer hunters for trespassing on my property, but I haven't actually done it- yet.

[hundredacres]

My daughters Brownie troop is coming to our barn next week to earn their "Horse Sense" patch (no riding just horsie facts)...I have all the material I need to discuss with them right here, in this thread!

MHM, I had called the police (Sheriff) about a deer hunter attempting to SHOOT a buck on our property and they could have cared less. The subject was a neighbor who was awaiting a felony manslaughter conviction too....still they told me that unless I told them that they were not allowed to trespass and hunt, I could do nothing about it. You have to actually TELL people they aren't allowed to hunt on your property? Shouldn't that be implied (what is wrong with this world?). I called the Conservation Office and they said I should have let the guy shoot the deer and then called them *sigh*. I was trying to AVOID someone shooting a gun toward my horses....anyway....no help from the police in my case. NONE.

[MistyBlue]

I find this VERY hard to believe. Methinks someone has a very active imagination or likes to embellish quite a bit.

I'm glad you find it hard to believe...I wish the moron father also found it hard to believe anyone could be soooo stupid. It was the barn where I worked out of/trained out of/showed out of and started out of. I spent 12 years there, in the 70's and 80's. This happened...ohhh...about mid 80's. I was one of the people who told the father repeatedly to not climb into the paddocks since I was one of the barn managers at the time. I was there the night they brought the ambulance down there. I was standing there while the father was babbling, "But I only wanted his picture on the horse! I can't believe this, it was only for a second!" Understandably, father was in tears. The little boy's name was Gino...I remember that because the father kept saying, "I'm so sorry Gino, Daddy's so sorry." Huntertwo on this Bb was at the same barn in her childhood...she can also tell you how often things like this happened there. If you have more time on your hands than I do...it might still be found in a search of court records for Southington CT. The barn's name in the suit was Pleasant View.
I'd *greatly* appreciate the same courtesy in return when disagreeing with someone online. Methinks I do not embellish or have an active imagination. (a polite way to intimate I might be lying, thankyouverymuch) Especially after saying one of my posts was a load of crap because you assumed I was saying horses do not feel or think...when I clearly stated they don't reason in human terms. I appreciate the different viewpoint, yet since you're close to my age there is a way to have a differing point of view without insulting the other person for their point of view or their factual happening.
If you have never come across foolish unthinking behavior in the equine business from the general public, then I applaud you for your nirvana-like area of the world. I've been in the equine business off and on for about 3 decades now. I do not think the general public is particularly stupid...but I do know they tend to leave common sense behind and cause horrific accidents when it comes to something like horses that fuel many an adult's child-like responses. I'm also a huge embassador for the equine sport and for the equine related legislation in this area. Part of advocating it though includes educating people on the inherent danger of horses.

[Mtn trails]

Coming in a little late here but horses yes, are totally unpredictable. I was haltering one of my horses in his stall and his buddy next door reached over the wall and poked him in the butt. My horse swung his head around and smashed me in the face, right above the left eye. I went down and was seeing stars while horse just looked at me. Result was a grossly huge black eye, couldn't see out of it for 3 days, and DH got a bad rap for punching me. JK.

Horses are never totally trustworthy although we'd like them to be. I never would have thought Dakota would have done that but when he swung his head, my face just happened to be in the way.

[Huntertwo]

I'm glad you find it hard to believe...I wish the moron father also found it hard to believe anyone could be soooo stupid. It was the barn where I worked out of/trained out of/showed out of and started out of. I spent 12 years there, in the 70's and 80's. This happened...ohhh...about mid 80's. I was one of the people who told the father repeatedly to not climb into the paddocks since I was one of the barn managers at the time. I was there the night they brought the ambulance down there. I was standing there while the father was babbling, "But I only wanted his picture on the horse! I can't believe this, it was only for a second!" Understandably, father was in tears. The little boy's name was Gino...I remember that because the father kept saying, "I'm so sorry Gino, Daddy's so sorry." Huntertwo on this Bb was at the same barn in her childhood...she can also tell you how often things like this happened there. If you have more time on your hands than I do...it might still be found in a search of court records for Southington CT. The barn's name in the suit was Pleasant View.
I'd *greatly* appreciate the same courtesy in return when disagreeing with someone online. Methinks I do not embellish or have an active imagination. (a polite way to intimate I might be lying, thankyouverymuch) Especially after saying one of my posts was a load of crap because you assumed I was saying horses do not feel or think...when I clearly stated they don't reason in human terms. I appreciate the different viewpoint, yet since you're close to my age there is a way to have a differing point of view without insulting the other person for their point of view or their factual happening.
If you have never come across foolish unthinking behavior in the equine business from the general public, then I applaud you for your nirvana-like area of the world. I've been in the equine business off and on for about 3 decades now. I do not think the general public is particularly stupid...but I do know they tend to leave common sense behind and cause horrific accidents when it comes to something like horses that fuel many an adult's child-like responses. I'm also a huge embassador for the equine sport and for the equine related legislation in this area. Part of advocating it though includes educating people on the inherent danger of horses.

I hear you MistyBlue....yes many strange things happened at that barn, especially with the Jr. High school just opposite the pasture. I remember many people parking there and holding their kids over the fence to pet the horses.

The Stallion didn't happen to be the Appy owned by Debbie M. was it? By the mid 80s I did move my horse, but she was going on vacation and asked me to take care of him for a few days. He was a typical young stallion and I didn't take my eyes off him for a second. He was gorgeous though.

[ESG]

Perhaps JackieBlue and Thomas are kin?

Only messing.