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CT-toddler badly bitten by horse

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  • Originally posted by Ann
    I've spent my life with horses in one way or another--working at stables as a teen-ager, leasing, owning, breeding, showing, rescuing, ect. I think it's because I imprinted on them very early in life; one of my earliest memories is of getting a pony ride on a large bay horse that belonged to some cousins in England, and, in France, walking with my mother to feed sugar cubes to a pony that lived in a field close by.

    It's unfortunate that our litigious society has caused horse people to be so defensive, frightened and angry towards children among the non-horsey general public. We all have to start somewhere; not all of us are fortunate as children to live in a family that is horse-savy.

    Yes, there are people who act like jerks around horses but I think they're more the exception than the rule. Most people will understand if you explain a situation to them in a kind, respectful manner. And you can always let them know about places they can take their children to get instruction on horsemanship so they can develop their interest in a safe environment.

    Those kids that you're so hostile towards are the future. When you turn people away from horses, don't be surprised as stables and land designated for horseback riding is earmarked for other purposes or swallowed by development.
    Excellent posting Ann

    Comment


    • Originally posted by EqTrainer
      If he did, I would seriously consider that there was something wrong with him or I have done a pisspoor job training him. Horses should not bite people. Those people who keep horses that bite and justify it, are crazy IMO.
      My horses are all non-bitters. BUT, you stick a kid in one of my guys face and he gets really pissy.

      Why? He's not exposed to kids. I don't have and don't want kids. If he wants to get all upset over some stranger sticking their hands in his stall, by all means he's got every right in the world to look mean. My pony is food agressive around strangers. Same deal there.

      My horses are my personal horses. The pony is great with kids and has paid her dues teaching lessons, but right now no one is leased to the barn, no one except me should be in their stalls petting their noses. If you stick your hand in my horses stall it's at your own risk. I don't really like people petting my horses or feeding them treats, unless I'm right there.

      Call me anal, call me mean. I don't care. I pay for them to be at a private barn, and I like them being "private" horses.

      Steph

      Comment


      • Thomas...I do wish society acted the same world-wide...but there can be some very major differences in liability and in the general public's ability to use common sense/respond to politelu worded requests.
        Over here in the states it's quite common to politely ask someone to not handle your horses or walk onto your posted private property and have that person tell you to sod off. Or they'll nod, agree, wander off and wait until you're not around to do whatever it is they please. Being sued for someone else' lack of common sense or even malicious intent is also becoming far too common for anyone's peace of mind here.
        Here are a couple cases I know first hand about:
        Father told repeatedly over a 2 month period (talked to at least once weekly during that time) to please not climb fence into paddocks with horses so he can take a photo of his young toddler with a horse. Was even told he could kindly bring toddler into premises by front gate for a pony ride and photo shoot. Father assumed he'd be charged money for it, so eventually drove around back of property and snuck through woods to find a single horse turned out. Climbed fence, approached horse with 3 year old son, placed son on horse's back and backed up to snap a photo. Horse continued grazing, took a step and toddler slid off. Breaking arm and collar bone. Father sued for harboring dangerous animal, attractive nuissance, damages and pain and suffering. Admitted to trespass and admitted to being repeatedly asked not to and being told of how chancy approaching unknown animals can be. Won suit anyways. Child was lucky since the "single horse" was out back alone for a reason, it was a stud.

        11 year old girl becomes enamored with new neighbors...they built fencing, barn and brought in horses. Girl is horse crazy, as normal for young girl. Asks to ride horses, is told she can't but offered to groom and pet supervised. Child sneaks into property when owners are off shopping, takes halter and leadline from barn and tries to ride one of the horses. It's an unbroke 2 year old, is dumped and stepped on. Owner sued, lost suit and lost massive amount of money.

        Middle aged adult female enjoys seeing horses across the street from where she just moved. Woman hasn't met neighbors yet, but decides to go feed horses over fence every night for a week after her dinner time, waits until horse owner leaves for her later shift job. End of week horse becomes ill, colics and ends up taken to hospital. They operate and find entire corn cobs, peas, potatoe skins and even a pork chop bone. Woman across the street was feeding her leftovers to the horse, despite numerous visible signs on fencing to not trespass or feed horses. Horse sruvives, vet bills astronomical and horse owner receives a small amount back due to attractive nuissance.

        These cases are not unusual at all.
        You jump in the saddle,
        Hold onto the bridle!
        Jump in the line!
        ...Belefonte

        Comment


        • You know... further on that thought Misty,

          My pony has ulcers. She's also IR/Cushings and she has a really careful diet right now. I'm dancing around her IR feeding alfalfa and honey for the tummy and praying we don't founder. She can't have any sort of sugar or starch, nothing I or the vet don't know about.

          She could DIE from someone feeding her a pepermint. Die. I could lose my love of my life, first horsey.

          Then I'd be in jail for killing the unsuspecting person who fed her the mint.

          Things are screwed up here in the USA, aren't they?

          Steph

          Comment


          • I wonder what the dad would have done in the zoo, near the elephants enclosure, or the tigers, oh, or the parrots. The look cute, suck you right in before they bite your finger off.......

            Comment


            • I don't have children and nor do I ever want them. I don't enjoy people forcing their children upon me. I love animals. I have my own farm and NO IT IS NOT A PETTING ZOO. People need to control themselves and their children. The article didn't mention if it was their own horse, which would be the ONLY WAY IT WOULD BE OK TO PET SAID HORSE! Did they ask for permission??? The article didn't mention that either. They didn't say that these people had any right to be in the boarding facility near the horses. They didn't have a lesson. IF THEY DID I AGREE WITH TOMAS...BAD HORSE! If they wondered into an area that wasn't open to the public, bad on the father. These weren't pony ride ponies...they were privately owned animals. I wouldn't in a million years walk down a strange street and walk into a strange house to pet someones dog...WHY DO PEOPLE THINK THEY CAN DO THAT WITH HORSES?

              Comment


              • Ann, where's the love? Right behind the lawyer.

                Ann, your point is well taken, but there is a huge difference between people who ask permission, listen to the horse owner and show respect for the animals/owners and the type of person who will trespass on private property, enter a field with a horse without permission, or allow their small children to touch/handle/feed a strange horse without permission. Where's the love? More like, where's the lawyer if the kid gets hurt! I ran a co-op on a private estate many years ago. The family had very generously allowed a local woman to ride their horses years before I arrived in their barn. They were still paying off a lawsuit because the woman fell off and sued the family. They were nice enough to share their horse with her, and she turned around and sued them...where's the love there?
                It boils down to basic common sense and good manners. In the perfect world, people would ask permission before touching someone's horse, listen to the owner and follow the owner's rules. It seems so simple, but many people just don't get it, and in our society, if your child gets hurt by my horse, even if you have blundered onto my property and let yourself in with my horse, I could be liable if you and your child get hurt. Horse owners must protect themselves from people like that, or they could lose their farm and livliehood.
                I really enjoy helping kids learn about horses. I have had pre-schools and scout troops here to our farm to learn about horse care, but the first thing I teach them is that they must always obey my barn rules, for their safety and the safety of my horses.

                Comment


                • SteffiC...it's scary as heck to think about, isn't it? It's not like this stuff happens to everyone who owns animals...but it's becoming more and more common and as the years go by I have to wrestle with my conscience more and more often on where to draw the line between being friendly/neighborly and how to make sure my assets, my animals and those friends and neighbors are all kept safe from harm or legal issues.
                  I'm extremely outgoing, probably to the point of annoying. And I'm forever trying to "recruit" more people into the equine world...whether it be by convincing them to take lessons, to become more aware of legislation that's dwindling farm areas or just to educate them a tad bit on equines in general. The horse world needs as many supporters as possible in this day and age. But nowadays it's so hard to draw the line so we err on the side of caution also.
                  Another case I know of? My cousin's own pony from ages back. Small animal, strangers would stop by the side of the road and feed it carrots or apples from the farm stand across the street. Sometimes those carrots could've doubled as baseball bats, huge. Severe case of choke...despite numerous hand written signs on fence stating to please not feed the pony due to pony's health issues. Didn't matter to the general public...that pony was apparently put there by magic to amuse and entertain whoever drove by. Pony damn near didn't make it...no lawsuits as we never knew who did that.
                  Horses are attractive nuissance...not many people will approach a fenced yard and try to feed the dog on the other side...but if it's equine it must be fair game. I see it often with a farm not more than 4 miles from me. They have 4 horses and an ox in a gorgeous idyllic farm setting right by the road. Every single day I drive by that place to go downtown. Every single day I see cars parked by roadside or bicycles or strollers hanging out at the fence. I have yet to see any of the animals approack the fence, but numerous times I've seen grown adults hanging over the fence shouting, waving arms and often throwing rocks or waving clumps of grass trying desperately to get some animals' attention so it will come amuse their child. Numerous times I've also pulled over and lowered my window and told people to NOT toss rocks towards the animals to get their attention. I say it as nicely but firmly as possible. Numerous times parents have told me, "But we're not trying to hurt them....we just want to pet them/see them up close! I drove/walked/biked all the way here to show my child the horsies/big cow!"
                  You jump in the saddle,
                  Hold onto the bridle!
                  Jump in the line!
                  ...Belefonte

                  Comment


                  • I'll admit. Could have been mine....

                    One of my horses bites. He has some social difficulties. He was orphaned at 3 days old and was not with a horse the same age as him till he was a yearling. When something pushes his buttons he reacts as if we are horses too. Mind you I am exempt as I am mom. He has a sign on his stall and people are warned about what field he is in. He is treated like a stallion. Things happen always when people start to trust him too much as he has been good for so long.

                    My other horse hurt his nose one year (bucket hook as a nose ring) and it had to be flushed out for several days. He hates his nose being touched now. If a kid insisted on poking his nose after he warned them that it was not appreciated....
                    "Marty, Quarter Horse Extraordinaire, Most Pleasant Packer, Companion To The End. May his suffering be little, his passing be easy and may we find each other again, drawn by love and kindred spirit."

                    Comment


                    • There is no way to tell who is at fault here. For all we know the Mom's a boarder and Dad was holding the kid while waiting for her to finish up. Another boarder may have been leading the horse that bit, wasn't paying attention and let horse wander on long lead over to Dad and kid. Dad's holding kid, doesn't realize kids extending cracker coated hand to horse. I've seen it happen. People hold the very end of a 6' lead rope and have no clue what the horse is doing on the other end. I was picking out a horses feet and got bit on the rear by someone not paying attention to their wandering(yet on a lead) pony.

                      I have a sweet horse in my barn who is seriously hand fed way too many treats. He has lunged over his stall door and grabbed people when they don't cough up a treat. You can do just about anything to this horse, but ignore him for too long and he's not happy about it. He finds he gets attention(with his owner) by nipping a sleeve or collar, he doesn't realize that what he's doing is wrong. His owner has also taught him to take treats from her lips.

                      Comment


                      • Attractive Nuisance

                        Attractive Nuisance would make a GREAT name for a horse!

                        My understanding of attractive nuisance was that it applied to children who because of their age could not be expected to understand the risks involved. If a parent/guardian is with them & enables them in checking out the horse, pool, guillotine, whatever, I don't see how attractive nuisance could apply. But the ways of the law and juries are strange and tend to be overly sympathetic to children and parents.

                        Kind of reminds me of the story (urban folklore, perhaps) of the bear who bit the arm off a toddler. Parents had smeared toddler's arm with honey to get a cute photo. Bear did what bears do.



                        Here's an article on horses as attractive nuisances written by an attorney who specializes in the horse industry:

                        http://www.quarterh.com/legal18.htm
                        Delicious strawberry flavored death!

                        Comment


                        • I hate the child was hurt, but, well, "manure happens"...
                          I have so come to LOATHE people/the general public...there are very few people left in this World who have any respect for other people/other people's property...Nobody is accountable for their own actions nor takes "ownership" of the result of their actions...
                          I too live right on a major road, and THANK GOD I've been lucky to not have (many) random people trespassing. For the most part, even though the pasture is visible, I don't think many people even realize there are horses here, as the horses are not often up at the front of the pasture (top of hill).
                          Unfortunately, there is a convenient store right across the road from me. There have been numerous times when I'd be working or riding one the horses in the open field by the road and next to my pasture that I would have to holler at children who would start to, or actually come running across the road to come see the horse (keep in mind horse is being lunged---real bright to come running up to a horse cantering at the end of a lunge line!). I don't blame the kids, but I have a real problem with parents who are irresponsible enough in the first place to not be paying attention to what their kids are doing or where they are, let alone the parents who actually take their child into a potentially dangerous situation...and it is not just related to horses or any other animal...kid could've been RUN OVER in the road by a car, could have been "grabbed" by someone and kidnapped, et-cetera! Just as parents who let their kids run/wander around in stores unsupervised, it scares the crap out of me at what COULD happen to that poor child...PEOPLE should have to undergo and pass inspections and approvals before THEY are allowed to "BREED", LOL!
                          As I said, luckily here at home it is not really a problem for me...at WORK however it is. I work on one the University Research Farms, and the John Q. Publics just seem think they own the place and they trespass and come & go as they please. If aggravates and WORRIES me to no end, though my boss doesn't seem to mind so much. We don't have horses there, just cattle, sheep, and goats, but "uninvited visitors" are just as bad as if there were horses out there. Most of the time, they just park on side of the road and go up to the fence, but all too often they actually drive on it through the gate---clearly posted "State Property No Trespassing", park by fence and get out of their cars and wander all around. A couple of months back, one of my co-workers and I were moving a couple of our steers---well over 2000 lbs animals here, who even on a good day are hard to handle trying to lead them---and from out of nowhere comes running up a very small child, the father far behind; they had actually been "deep within" the farm where they certainly had no business whatsoever being...scared the crap out of me, the steers too. That child could have been killed, not to mention *I* could've been hurt as well! I just hollered to please get back/get away, and just told my co-worker to hurry up and get away from them before they could further upset the steers...I mean this child (little toddler) was within 3 feet of us! AARRGGHHHH! By the time we got the steers into the barn (~300' feet away) and settled, the "intruders" had left...I let my boss know, but she still just doesn't "get it" that we really have to do SOMETHING to TRY to stop people from coming up in there. Aside from the LIABILITY FACTOR, there is a major BIO-HAZARD RISK as well...we don't know where these people have been and what they may be tracking onto the farm. Even as faculty and staff, we have to follow a set protocol period of timewhere you aren't even allowed on the farm for a certain period of time if you've been out of the country...
                          When I worked at the Vet School, it was even worse. I blame that on the danged "Open House" functions they hold though...just contributes to John Q. Public thinking they can just come by ANY OLD TIME THEY WANT TO. I cannot tell you how many times I had to ask people (most of the time, yes, a parent with small children, but even just ignorant lone adults as well!) who had stopped by the patient pastures/turn-out areas to leave/to please not be trying to feed/explain to them that these were sick client-owned PATIENTS, not University animals (which well could have/may have been one of YOUR sick horses who was at the hospital!) and how they could either catch something from the horse, spread something to the other horses, or yes, how they could even hurt or kill the animal by feeding it something, let alone the fact that THEY THEMSELVES could be hurt! AARRGGHHH! Even worse was the fact that my pleas to Administration that something needed to be done before any of what I've outlined above could happen were just ignored/excused...I guess it will never matter until the University has to settle a lawsuit that could have been prevented...Oh, wait---they had already "been there, done that" when an unsupervised/uncontrolled child got kicked in the head during one of the "Open Houses" when someone was trying to get their sick EMERGENCY colicing horse into the Hospital!...even after that they still conduct these "functions"!
                          OK, sorry I got off on this tangent, but there are far too many irresponsible, clueless, and thereby NEGLIGENT "parents" out there who just shouldn't have kids if they can't---or don't care to---keep them under close supervision, or who otherwise have little enough common sense to be able to recognize the potentially dangerous situations they themselves PUT their children IN...let alone how it may 'advesely affect' someone else (you or me!) or our animals...
                          People just don't THINK.
                          (sorry for "ranting", and yes, my blood pressure is up now! lol)
                          Tabatha

                          Comment


                          • It happens so fast that it leaves you in shock. Several years ago my son and I went out to the barn to check on one of my pregnant mares. My son was perhaps 8 at the time. This mare had a history of nipping people on the hip or the back of the arm or the shoulder. Not always, but often enough that one had to be careful around her. The mare was eating dinner and my son just peeked over the top of the door at her. Next thing I know there was blood pouring from his face. She had struck like a snake and bit him on the eyebrow. I took his shirt off and used it as a pressure bandage, and drove him straight to the hospital ER. Fortunately, it was just one thin line of teeth through the eyebrow, which was closed up with a couple of stitches. If you look carefully, you can still see the scar.

                            I would bet that the father had held the child up to "pet the pretty horsie"....with unfortunate consequences. Parents and children need to be very cautious around horses. They weigh upwards of 1200 pounds and can be very quick with teeth and hooves. Even horses that you know can do damage to children.

                            My son now likes to look at my horses from a distance...

                            Oakleigh
                            Oakleigh Sporthorses Sale Horses

                            Comment


                            • I have Miniatures, and the "OOOOOO PONY!" drama is a million times worse. I can't tell you how many times I've been leading one of mine and loose children will just FLING themselves at them while the parents smile at their little darlings.

                              Strange animal aside, last time I checked, it wasn't polite to just go up to someone and start touching their stuff. Even if they don't understand strange animal = potential risk, SURELY basic good manners cover it anyway under the "That's not my (thing). I should ask permission first."

                              As for the injuries... I have questions too, but some years ago I DID know a little girl who had been badly bitten in the face by her pony. She needed facial reconstruction and was in the hospital for a few weeks. Very, very horsey family, mom had been supervising and it *was* a familar, much-loved pony. One of those "blink of an eye" things that we all know can happen. Bad things do happen, even under the best of circumstances. Although this paticular case does not sound like that.
                              "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings

                              Comment


                              • I always abide by the rule my mother taught me - if it isn't yours, don't touch it! I have been around dogs all my life and trained a few and I know when I see a scary dog that might bite or a very well trained sweet dog. Still, if I always ask the owner first if I can pet it. Same thing with horses...they may look cute in the paddock but you never know. We always tell guests in our barn to please not touch the horses just in case. Sure, our animals should be trained not to bite and to respect space but they're ANIMALS, they don't. Think about the number of humans out there that do generally the same thing to other people.

                                I hope the kid's okay but this incident should teach people to keep their hands off what is someone elses, especially when that something else is a living being.
                                "Function in disaster, finish in style, and remain at the center of your being." - Lucy Madeira Wing

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Thomas_1
                                  http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/show...22#post1633122

                                  If a commercial equine yard or even a single horse owner has a horse that is bad mannered and to such an extent that its viscious and biting people and toddlers in the face, then its their responsibility to ensure that its away from where it can do any damage or harm until its properly trained.
                                  You are talking about a private boarding facility, not a public lesson barn. These people have every right to turn their horses out, good mannered or bad, and not have people think they have the right to trespass and touch horses that do not belong to them. I am tired of people thinking that every horse that hangs it's head over a fence is public domain. Keep your kids away from dogs/horses/cats that don't belong to you and they won't get hurt. It's that simple!
                                  Ridge Farm Inc.-full care retirement
                                  http://www.horseretirementfarm.com

                                  Comment


                                  • I have to ditto again the posts about the general stupidity and downright rudeness of the general public.

                                    If it hadn't happend to me on a regular basis, then maybe I wouldn't be so put out by it. But unfortunatly it does happen more than not that those people you so politely tell to stop petting the horsie not only DON'T stop, they tell you that they aren't doing anything wrong!!

                                    It's not yours, dont touch it. It could be the gentlest thing on 4 hooves or Jaws in a horse costume, it really shouldn't matter. It's not yours, don't touch it.

                                    Thomas, I really don't know where you get off telling the rest of us that our horses are bad mannered if they don't like something and let you know about it! That's like saying I'm a bitch if you tickle me and I shove you away in response. I don't like it and you should leave me alone!

                                    I also don't think it's generally a good practice to get in the face of any animal, have a little respect for their personal space too!

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by StefffiC
                                      She could DIE from someone feeding her a pepermint. Die. I could lose my love of my life, first horsey.
                                      This actually just recently happened to my friend. Her 26 year old mare choked on a carrot that another boarder's guest fed to her. It got stuck and they felt she would not survive surgery to remove it, so she was euthanized. Absolutely true story.

                                      Comment


                                      • I read the first couple pages I read a lot of hostility...I feel really bad for the child, parents, and the horse owner. They all probably are pretty upset over the situation.

                                        Who to blame? Who knows. Nobody here can because all the info just isn't there- we can speculate until the cows come home but it's wasted effort. Calling the general public nitwits around horses is also a waste of time too. The past couple years I've done plenty of demos with horses in atmospheres chock full of non-horsey type folks such as festivals/fairs/etc. I have found people to being very receptive to information that horse people dole out... Point is you have to present them to it and in majority most people are AFRAID of approaching a 1200lb horse including the 30-40 lb toddler.

                                        This country isn't as sue happy as the media would have you believe but you can protect yourself for those just in cases- insurance and education.

                                        So what can we do as horse owners to minimiize incidents? Educate the public- not admonish them for being ignorant. An easy way of educating is by a simple signs- posted them everywhere in plain view. "Horses may bite please do not approach fence". Direct and to the point. Another great one "ELECTRIFIED FENCE- STAY AWAY". How to get these signs? Print them up on your computer- bring them to a copy center and have them laminated, take your staple gun out and every board length put one up! Many people already HAVE signs- BUT- recheck how those signs are displayed... are they easy to read? in good places? do you have enough?

                                        Someone had mentioned the neighbor who's little daughter was bite after trespassing. How fustrating but if you give a warning- back it up with paper. Bring over a hold harmless liability form to make the mother sign... You could do it respectfully and may open her eyes a little more. "Hi, I understand your daughter is very interested in horses however I require that anyone who comes in contact with my horses sign a waiver of liability since horses are unpredictable even if well trained, here's a letter stating that I explained the risks associated with contact to horses and if you would be so kind as to sign this waiver of liabilty? Or you don't feel comfortable doing so? Okay then please be sure to supervise your daughter so she doesn't wander to the fence line" Next day certify mail that darn letter and liability form- put the receipt in the safe!

                                        Yes it kind of stinks that we have people who tresspass on property but that will never go away- the laws can and will protect YOU if you have properly researched and have prepare plans ahead of time. As horse owners we must be the 'more' responsible party.

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                                        • SuperSTB - what an entirely sensible and appropriate posting.

                                          Originally posted by theoldgreymare
                                          You are talking about a private boarding facility, not a public lesson barn. !
                                          I appreciate that we may be divided by a common language but a commercial facility means that someone somewhere is making money from a business. Now I presume by "private boarding facilty" you mean what we call a D-I-Y livery yard. In which case its the Yard owner that is running a commercial interest and both he/she and the horse owner has legal liabilities and responsibilities

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