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Please Help Newbie Choose Better Bit

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  • Please Help Newbie Choose Better Bit

    I used a simple D snaffle with my pony for 25 years. New greenie has typical longer QH conformation and I've already bought 2 new bits and am ready to graduate to next stage. No trainer, I'm on my own here.

    Greenie tends to be high headed, hollow backed and high ended by about 1", a few strikes against us. We started out with the D and she took advantage of me (bolted/bucked) a few times so decided to get something with more "control". On advice, I bought this type of gag:
    http://www.horse.com/itm_img/WBE28.jpg and it works just great with reins in the first hole down. Early training we used reins that slid through rings over the poll and soon graduated to reins that simply connected to rings.
    She will bring her head down and round her back most of the time when I gently squeeze recalling the slide through reins. But she's used to it and isn't consistant because there's no longer poll pressure. I give light squeeze, release when she drops her chin, and then she juts her chin out, repeat....tiring.

    I was thinking of trying out a different style bit for awhile until she gets the hang of things, and builds her upper neck muscles & balance. I was thinking about trying THIS type of bit http://www.horse.com/itm_img/WBF79.jpg
    My thinking is I could lightly squeeze and it would put pressure on her poll instead of her mouth reminding her to bring her head down. The bar is solid rather than jointed which seems to me would be more "direct", so I could be more subtle in my squeeze.

    Once she "gets" it, I'd like going back to bit #1, preferably in the neutral position. But she's got to learn to round her back and gain muscle first.

    Is my thinking in the correct direction?

  • #2
    I assume you're riding western and I know (tho' I don't ride Western) that there's a different theory of bitting. So take my post with a chunk of salt.

    If the horse's problem is that she's traveling around with a hollow back and lacks a topline, that is not going to be remedied with a bit. It's possible that the bolting is just juvenile antics; it's possible that the horse is somewhat physically unbalanced and bucks and bolts when she just can't hold it together anymore; it's possible that the horse feels overfaced by what you're asking of her (workouts are too long, require too much physical effort, or go too far beyond her training comfort level, or some combination).

    Anyway, and this is advice you didn't ask for, I would drop her training back a notch. A bit isn't like a car brake that stops the horse mechanically; it's really only a signaling device. I'm not against stronger bits in all situations--sometimes they're appropriate. But I wouldn't use the bit you've shown on a green horse to train with.

    JMHO and good luck.
    "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

    Comment


    • #3
      As PostingTrot said, the bit is only a communication device. Opinions on bits are a bit like manure excavation ports!

      My gelding has been under saddle for 5 years with me now. We started out in a tom thumb western bit...typically referred to as a snaffle...wrong. He did ok, but we went on a bit quest because he didn't like his bits. We went through a lot. We are now using the bit you showed above. He loves it. He neck reins like a dream. He is always on a loose rein or buckle...He has earned that bit. He responds off of leg and seat, and neck...lol. He is well trained.

      The bit you asked about is a "grazing" bit. It is for horses that are finished with their training and respond well to all aids and cues. IT IS NOT A TRAINING BIT!

      I think a comfort Myler snaffle bit would be up your alley with more training. You said you are not working with a trainer; maybe now would be a good time to consult a trainer.

      Good Luck.
      Life is too short to argue with a mare! Just don't engage! It is much easier that way!

      Have fun, be safe, and let the mare think it is her idea!

      Comment


      • #4
        Sorry, the horse just is too green here and needs to learn basic acceptance of the bit. Getting stronger bits will not teach that to the horse.

        Western or not. You teach them what to do, you don't hang more hardware on them to make them do it. Your horse is evading and getting scared and defensive because it does not understand what you want. get a stronger bit or add a gag and you will just scare it more and maybe hurt him physically on top of that.

        Maybe some videos on breaking and training the young horse would be helpful?

        Also, suggest rigging up sidereins and lunging in them with that snaffle for awhile, maybe 3 or 4 days. Then ride after lunging, without the sidereins of course...but work on circles and halts and leg yielding. Start loose when lunging and gradually tighten them up but don't get carried away. They will teach the horse self carriage and to round to the bit instead of resist and invert.

        You can just use some light rope or strong twine and run then from each snaffle ring to the dees on the saddle or the cinch ring...best is about level with the nose but you may have to improvise a little. Again, just a tiny bit of tension at first. Make it easy for them to get relief and a loose rein by doing the right thing.

        I rode Western for 25 years and we started them this way. Also rehabbed older horses and re educated them to accept the bit and rider aids.
        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

        Comment


        • #5
          hackamore

          If it's mouth is not too hard just try a simple 2 ring happy mouth which is similar to big one but, nicer. Put reins on both spots.

          Also, I am a hunter jumper person but, like many western bits for training. I like to use the quick stop hackamore. I put it on with just a basic western headstall (no noseband or throat latch) and then put another bridle with an easy bit on over it. You end up with 2 reins one to the mouth and one to the hackamore. So, your horse learns to not be quick and you don't have to hang in it's mouth because you can add pressure to the hack. It works great and I know severa BNT's use this. The hack has a nose rope over the top and a metal piece on the bottome. I wrap the metal in vetwrap to make it a little softer.

          Once your horse understand the half halt he will go much better with just a bit and there will be no fight. It just add pressure in new places to help him understand

          hope this makes sense

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Thank Youse!

            Well, I'm a New Yorker ^^
            Every single reply has something to offer, thank you. I neglected to say that we are also using a martingale or forks to encourage lowering the head.

            I vary our routines and tack just to keep things interesting while we learn better balance and kind of drill responses. Plus it gives me an idea what she likes/dislikes and what works/doesn't work. I learned not to use a crop, that's what caused her buck! I hate to say we're learning together, but we are. Greenie is my physical/mental therapy & she enjoys having a job.

            So yes, Posting Trot, when we plateau, we switch gears and revisit past successes. And findeight, lunging in side reins is an old "success". I used to lunge her in doughnuts before every ride, but since she's done so well I've gone right into warm up by walking for 5-10 minutes instead.
            So, yes, time to take a step back in training.

            MustangTrailRider: I wish I could hire a trainer, but unemployed right now. I'm afraid of losing my HORSE from lack of funding. Glad to know we're not the only ones going on a "bit quest". But thanks for advising that it's not a bit for a greenie.

            SSFLandon - your suggestion is fantastic, it sounds exactly right. (and I sometimes vetwrap bits just to see if she likes them better) but I don't have funds at the moment. But I'll definitely keep it in mind!

            Thanks again! I felt really stupid asking, but bits are confusing.

            I thought maybe signals might be clearer for her with a port instead of a jointed bit. I was hoping the port pressing against her tongue would encourage her to bring her chin back a little and help develop some upper neck muscles.
            But we'll take all the great advice you got!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TikiSoo View Post
              Well, I'm a New Yorker ^^
              Every single reply has something to offer, thank you. I neglected to say that we are also using a martingale or forks to encourage lowering the head.

              We need to clarify concepts here first.
              Running martingales are not there "to lower the head" but, like a seat belt, in case the rider is not polite enough with it's contact, with or without good reason and the horse is objecting to it by throwing it's head around, the martingale will come into play and keep that head from swinging too wildly, to the point of the horse becoming completely uncontrollable and the rider maybe getting a black eye.
              If a martingale is adjusted so tight that the horse can't move it's head around up to the reins naturally have a direct line from hand to mouth, if they are holding that line broken downward and so set too low and keeping the head down, they are keeping the horse from coming thru over his back, the horse is bracing against their pressure and some horses, if annoyed enough, may even start rearing.
              Be sure you have the running martingale adjusted just right for the right purpose, it is not interfering with your communication with your horse.


              I vary our routines and tack just to keep things interesting while we learn better balance and kind of drill responses. Plus it gives me an idea what she likes/dislikes and what works/doesn't work. I learned not to use a crop, that's what caused her buck! I hate to say we're learning together, but we are. Greenie is my physical/mental therapy & she enjoys having a job.

              How do you use a crop?
              Generally, it is used behind the leg, lightly, after you have asked with your leg first and the horse is sticky, not responding enough and you reinforce the signal with a tap of the whip.
              Horses don't normally buck from that standard training use of the whip.
              Now, if you haul off and hit a horse a good whack behind, not that you do, you didn't say, well, then all bets are off how the horse may respond.


              So yes, Posting Trot, when we plateau, we switch gears and revisit past successes. And findeight, lunging in side reins is an old "success". I used to lunge her in doughnuts before every ride, but since she's done so well I've gone right into warm up by walking for 5-10 minutes instead.
              So, yes, time to take a step back in training.

              MustangTrailRider: I wish I could hire a trainer, but unemployed right now. I'm afraid of losing my HORSE from lack of funding. Glad to know we're not the only ones going on a "bit quest". But thanks for advising that it's not a bit for a greenie.

              SSFLandon - your suggestion is fantastic, it sounds exactly right. (and I sometimes vetwrap bits just to see if she likes them better) but I don't have funds at the moment. But I'll definitely keep it in mind!

              Thanks again! I felt really stupid asking, but bits are confusing.

              I thought maybe signals might be clearer for her with a port instead of a jointed bit. I was hoping the port pressing against her tongue would encourage her to bring her chin back a little and help develop some upper neck muscles.
              But we'll take all the great advice you got!

              Always remember that we call bits a SNAFFLE when the mouth piece has a direct action thru the reins on the mouth, no matter which kind of mouth piece you are talking about, if solid, as in mullen, two or many pieces to that mouthpiece.

              A CURB is any bit that has LEVERAGE, that is shanks and a curb, NO MATTER which kind of mouth piece, if made of one or several pieces.

              Then gags are a little bit different, as they give more signals all over the head than snaffles or curbs do.

              Generally, we train the basics with snaffles, that is bits with a direct line from the hands to the mouth and, once the horse is fairly advanced, we refine our communication (NOT our control, that comes from training) with a curb.

              If we try to achieve better control with bigger bits, we get to a point where we run out of big enough bit.
              Better train and train and train in the basics, as long as it takes, so we gain excellent communication and that will bring better and better and more refined control.

              Those principles apply to both, English and western riding.

              Comment


              • #8
                No no no...a port is usually associated with a curb bit which works on a leverage principle, totally unlike a snaffle (which is ANY bit that does not work on a leverage principle, jointed or not). The port will not change anything...and you have a problem with acceptance of aids if the horse does not "like" them, as shown by the crop issue-what he really does not like is having to do something he does not want to. And he has won that battle with you, you backed down when he bucked. So it worked to evade your wishes and will continue to do that until you assert yourself a little more and make acceptance of the aids and your commands mandatory, not optional if and when he feels like it.

                Basics, basics, basics. Mildest bit you can get away with. 100% enforcement of the aids all the time every time.
                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think whether you are approaching things english or western you'll find that the horse using his back (and thus lowering his head) has a lot to do with him using his hind end. In other words, the horse can "go faster" by sticking his head in the air and running like a Standardbred, or he can "go more powerfully" by dropping his hind end, digging in, and pushing off, engaging his whole body in the stride. When he learns to do that, he reaches with his shoulders and his neck, and you start to get the "look" you want.

                  In many many cases I see the rider is fiddling too much with the mouth, trying to get that look, and the horse is losing more and more power from the hind end. There's also the contributing factor that it can feel a bit scary when a horse really powers forward - you have to be willing to ask the horse to go, and ride with him, not try to slow him down.

                  I don't mean bolting - that's in the "sticking his head in the air and running" category. But, if you've ever done it, think how it feels when you come around a barrel, or double back and take off in a canter, or even how a horse feels when he's going uphill - he really has to push with the haunches, and reach with the front end.

                  In fact, if you have some hills you can ride, start out doing lots of walking up the hills (it's better muscle building to walk!), then add in trots and canters. That will do a lot of the muscle building and give you a feel for how this horse feels when he's using himself better, I think.

                  Pick a long hill, and preferably not the one that goes right back to the barn - few horses have enough energy to run away on an uphill. Then get too tired by the top and want to stop.

                  If he runs or bolts, remember not to haul back on both reins, but just on one - pull, release, pull, release, etc. He can't hang on it if you keep taking and giving.

                  Sounds like fun (sorta!) working with a new horse. Hope he works out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TikiSoo View Post
                    Well, I'm a New Yorker ^^
                    Every single reply has something to offer, thank you. I neglected to say that we are also using a martingale or forks to encourage lowering the head.

                    I vary our routines and tack just to keep things interesting while we learn better balance and kind of drill responses. Plus it gives me an idea what she likes/dislikes and what works/doesn't work. I learned not to use a crop, that's what caused her buck! I hate to say we're learning together, but we are. Greenie is my physical/mental therapy & she enjoys having a job.

                    So yes, Posting Trot, when we plateau, we switch gears and revisit past successes. And findeight, lunging in side reins is an old "success". I used to lunge her in doughnuts before every ride, but since she's done so well I've gone right into warm up by walking for 5-10 minutes instead.
                    So, yes, time to take a step back in training.

                    MustangTrailRider: I wish I could hire a trainer, but unemployed right now. I'm afraid of losing my HORSE from lack of funding. Glad to know we're not the only ones going on a "bit quest". But thanks for advising that it's not a bit for a greenie.

                    SSFLandon - your suggestion is fantastic, it sounds exactly right. (and I sometimes vetwrap bits just to see if she likes them better) but I don't have funds at the moment. But I'll definitely keep it in mind!

                    Thanks again! I felt really stupid asking, but bits are confusing.

                    I thought maybe signals might be clearer for her with a port instead of a jointed bit. I was hoping the port pressing against her tongue would encourage her to bring her chin back a little and help develop some upper neck muscles.
                    But we'll take all the great advice you got!
                    OK... a few points... A martingales shouldn't come into play in regular riding. They should stop the horse when he throws his head up high. They prevent the horse from throwing his head up far enough to break the riders nose. If the horse is carrrying his head too high, adding more pressure to his nose isn't the answer. Head carriage is determined by the horses back and hind legs. You as a rider need to learn to ride and control those things before you think about where the horses head is.

                    Second, I would never vary tack to keep things interesting. It isn't about interesting for your horse, its about learning the correct response to what you ask him. If you change the tack frequently, the horse isn't learning how to respond- he's just getting confused.

                    Third, if your horse bucks in response to the crop behind your leg, the horse needs to be corrected. That is not an appropriate response and you as the rider need to teach your horse that. Don't back off because your horse bucks- that is the horse resisting what you asked him to do - and you don't want to reinforce that.

                    If you want to develop upper neck muscles in a greenie, the first thing you need to do is develop back and hind end muscles. Do lots of walking up and down hills. Then add trotting up and walking back down maybe twice a week. In the ring, encourage the horse to trot forward, using the hind leg muscles and try to avoid restricting him with your hands. Once you've worked on those things, you can halt halt (sit deep and briefly resist with your body and hands for 1/2 a stride) then the horse should slow up a little and lower his head without disengaging his body. It takes practice- and it can take some greenies a year to develop enough muscle and body control to work properly. Just keep at it and you will get there - and stick with a plain single jointed snaffle until you do. Once the basics are fully installed- then its time to think about another bit for refinement (maybe a curb for showing western, a double for dressage, a pelham or bubble gag for jumpers). Or, your horse may be so good at listening to your body that changing the bit will be unnecessary at that point.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      With a horse who gets high headed, I would stop using a gag, as in my experience that tends to make a horse more high headed. It may sound unconventional, but I would try the reinsman little "s" hackamore (not a mechanical). http://www.smithbrothers.com/reinsma...013193/cn/310/ (if you shop around you can find it cheaper) Just make sure you can fit 2 fingers between the horses chin and the curb chain and take off the martingale. Despite being a hackamore, it has a lot of control, and the curb action IMO works better to lower a horses head. Some horses (my old guy is one of these) don't ever feel comfortable in a bit,and react by raising their heads. When I switched him from dressage to western and started riding him that hackamore, his head dropped about a foot and a half.

                      Good Luck!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        All I want to say is PLEASE get a trainer to help you. It is your responsibility to teach this horse correctly. The consequences of not teaching her right is that she could become dangerous and end up at the meat killers, and it would be your fault - no blaming the horse for being bad.

                        Nothing in your original post makes me think you have the experience to do this on your own. At her level of training, she should be in a snaffle. That's why they have snaffle bit classes for 2 yo and 3 yo, because that's the bit that young horses should be in, whether its western or english.

                        Try doing a lot of ground work with her. Lots of CORRECT lunging - use side reins, don't let her just run around. Get a book on how to lunge the correct way before you try this on your own.

                        Good luck.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Whoa!

                          I usually don't respond to my own threads, but I need to clarify a few points:

                          Early on riding this horse, I carried a crop because that was "typical" for me. We were just learning to canter and if she broke into a trot, I'd urge her with voice and legs. If she just trotted faster, I gave her a tap on the rump to emphasise my point and she bucked.....then cantered. I stopped using the crop because it seemed to me it scared her more than helped her. We've come along way with aids now and a crop just isn't really necessary. We "work" every other day.

                          She only bolted once on the trail (yippee I'm outside!) yes with her head way up fighting the bit which is why I went from the D to the gag one hole down. I'm cautious to be gentle with her but learned to be FIRM when she gets flakey...and she listens. The deciding factor not to send her to Elmer's.

                          The forks are used to lower the rein leverage, they aren't tight at all. I only switch tack to see if she's really learned something or if she's only responding because of the tack itself. I want her to round from my aids, not from appliances holding her there.
                          But that's why we "take a step back", so riding is easy and fun instead of a big lesson every time. She's learned her canter leads pretty well, so we'll trot small circles for awhile as a mental break.

                          Thanks for the bit suggestions. This advice sounds right on:

                          I think whether you are approaching things english or western you'll find that the horse using his back (and thus lowering his head) has a lot to do with him using his hind end.
                          Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
                          If you want to develop upper neck muscles in a greenie, the first thing you need to do is develop back and hind end muscles. Do lots of walking up and down hills. Then add trotting up and walking back down maybe twice a week. In the ring, encourage the horse to trot forward, using the hind leg muscles and try to avoid restricting him with your hands. Once you've worked on those things, you can halt halt (sit deep and briefly resist with your body and hands for 1/2 a stride) then the horse should slow up a little and lower his head without disengaging his body. It takes practice- and it can take some greenies a year to develop enough muscle and body control to work properly. Just keep at it and you will get there - and stick with a plain single jointed snaffle until you do. Or, your horse may be so good at listening to your body that changing the bit will be unnecessary at that point.
                          THANKS!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TikiSoo View Post
                            I usually don't respond to my own threads, but I need to clarify a few points:

                            Early on riding this horse, I carried a crop because that was "typical" for me. We were just learning to canter and if she broke into a trot, I'd urge her with voice and legs. If she just trotted faster, I gave her a tap on the rump to emphasise my point and she bucked.....then cantered. I stopped using the crop because it seemed to me it scared her more than helped her. We've come along way with aids now and a crop just isn't really necessary. We "work" every other day.

                            She only bolted once on the trail (yippee I'm outside!) yes with her head way up fighting the bit which is why I went from the D to the gag one hole down. I'm cautious to be gentle with her but learned to be FIRM when she gets flakey...and she listens. The deciding factor not to send her to Elmer's.

                            The forks are used to lower the rein leverage, they aren't tight at all. I only switch tack to see if she's really learned something or if she's only responding because of the tack itself. I want her to round from my aids, not from appliances holding her there.
                            But that's why we "take a step back", so riding is easy and fun instead of a big lesson every time. She's learned her canter leads pretty well, so we'll trot small circles for awhile as a mental break.

                            Thanks for the bit suggestions. This advice sounds right on:





                            THANKS!
                            Why would you "not respond to my own threads"?

                            The way people go about learning is to keep asking questions about the responses others provide, so we keep clarifying the situation and all of us can learn from it.

                            I agree that the best, easiest way to progress, for the horse and rider, is to be under the watchful eye of a trainer.
                            If not, we don't even know what all we are not doing right.

                            It is hard to understand how you adjust a martingale, just from the way you describe it, or how you are riding.

                            Much of riding properly is like riding a bicicle, once we get it, it makes riding soooo much easier.
                            Once we learn the feel of a horse coming properly from behind onto our hands, in front of our legs, we can then look for that in any horse we will ride the rest of our life.

                            As my friend the trainer keeps saying, "practice alone is not enough, perfect practice is what makes perfect".

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                            • #15
                              cheap

                              OP
                              SSFLandon - your suggestion is fantastic, it sounds exactly right. (and I sometimes vetwrap bits just to see if she likes them better) but I don't have funds at the moment. But I'll definitely keep it in mind!

                              you can get this for less the 20..google it. I think I got mine from horse.com

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                Once we learn the feel of a horse coming properly from behind onto our hands, in front of our legs, we can then look for that in any horse we will ride the rest of our life.
                                Amen.

                                I grew up riding in the midst of amazing, top notch professional trainers. I didn't realize how lucky I was until I moved and saw areas who had lots of trainers- who were very nice and mean very well- but they are no where near the same caliber. Two of the most common things I've seen is that sort of backwards riding (bit to leg, not vice versa) and constantly working on getting the horse "round" (or working on asking the horse to do something) when the rider's base of support is all over the place, and the rider can't effectively ask the horse.

                                I see so any "greenie" riders... taking lots of lessons from these trainers, and never learning that forward leg to hand feeling. Oh, and never posting without stirrups

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