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A question for the gay and lesbian BBers.

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  • Sannois,
    What is offensive about this discussion?

    I see it at least as semi horse related in that there are a lot of gays in the horse world.

    And re: the comment Pep made regarding "why would I choose this?" She sounds like she's gone through some pain there. Ouch... You can't really compare it to saying "would I choose to be black" because you cannot chose to be black...well except my brother LOL. But no one ever accuses someone of choosing to be black, but they accuse people of "choosing to be gay" ALL the time.

    What's wrong with sexy??
    The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

    Comment


    • I can fully understand why gays and lesbians have trouble with the larger religious institutions. And yes, the Catholic church has been in the news lately. But why name one church over the other? What about the largest christian religion in America that is also the most openly anti-gay? What about the orthodox religions?

      Please don't flame me here - I just want to explain a misconception about the Catholic Church. Most seem to believe that the church hates homosexuals. I am Catholic, and was taught in Catholic schools, by priests and nuns, that the church does NOT view homosexualty as a sin. You are who you are. They do believe it is genetic. The priesthood is full of openly gay priests (never to be confused with pedophiles, who are sexually and emotionally excited about hurting the weak) - and a vow of celibacy is a vow of celibacy.

      The church believes that the purpose of marriage is procreation in a loving enviroment. ALL sex outside of marriage is considered a sin. And because homosexual sex cannot lead to procreation, the sex itself is considered a sin.

      Yes, I disagree with this. The Cardinal who spouted hatefulness is dead wrong and should be removed.

      But please see that the church's view of sex is centered around procreation, not hatred.

      Comment


      • Or something like that. Lots of people I know could stand to read it! I emailed a link to this thread to several of my non-horsey friends so they too could benefit from the discussion.

        In my college days I had a boyfriend whose roommates were all gay. I enjoyed them very much and never gave their orientation a second thought. Too bad not everyone gets the opportunity at an early age to see for themselves that the hateful stereotypes passed down to them, perhaps by parents or siblings or older friends, have no merit.
        \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
          You can't really compare it to saying "would I choose to be black" because you cannot chose to be black...well except my brother LOL. But no one ever accuses someone of choosing to be black, but they accuse people of "choosing to be gay" ALL the time.
          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Case and point. It would be an equally absurd accusation.

          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Miss Perfect:
          But why name one church over the other?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Because I was brought up catholic. I can't speak for other religions. They aren't my culture. I'm sure the same is true for others.
          Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

          Comment


          • (bringing this back to the horse theme...)

            So do we think that kids who spend time in the horse world will be more accepting of different people and different lifestyles because they're exposed to it sooner? and in a setting where it's more accepted than in mainstream society? How do the teenagers at your barns react? what conversations do you overhear? are we adults doing a good job of modeling acceptance?

            Comment


            • At the end of the day, if you were face-to-face with JP (the Pope [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ), and you asked him if ostracizing gays and lesbians was acceptable, I can bet the farm on what his answer would be.

              Nobody has to agree with anyone's sexuality - celibate, "loose," straight, gay, lesbian - but I think you'll find that the "official" position of the Catholic church, when push comes to shove, is that we are all in this together. Compassion and peace is where we end up.

              Yes, there are outliars who would take a hard-line position against lots of different lifestyles, but such is the case in any religion.

              Comment


              • Miss Perfect bring up a point that I have mused over many a time...that for the Catholic religion (and many others, though I would not be able to name them as I was raised a Catholic), the prospect of gay marriages is out of the question because marriage is supposed to be a union with pro-creation in mind (as is sex, I was once told by a sex ed teacher that something along the lines of non-believers, for lack of a better word, have sex outside of marriage, believers inside of marriage and staunch believers only for procreation [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]).

                I have heard that point being brought up time and time again in regards to same sex marriages, yet no one seems to address the fact that many couple are getting married or are already with no intention of having children. What would the difference be then? There isn't one is there? Does that same logic mean that we should forbid those that don't intend to have children from getting married? How ridiculous is that!

                Oh, this is a timely topic, as just the other day a radio station ran a clip in the news that features someone (not sure if it was a politician, a citizen or what as I missed the intro) stating that same sex marriages would lead to three way marriages... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] I am always amazed at the things that come out of my fellow citizen's mouths...

                ~ Charter Member of the Welsh Cob clique ~

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by betsyk:

                  So do we think that kids who spend time in the horse world will be more accepting of different people and different lifestyles because they're exposed to it sooner? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  I'd hazard a guess that yes, it does. The first brush I had with homosexuality in any form was on the local A circuit here; there were gay male trainers around (something I was not familiar with at 14 yet!) and because my trainers thought nothing of it, I don't think any of us did. They just were. Does that make sense? Obviously one would have to factor in family life at home too, as if one came from a home with strong homophobic parents that might influence things, but I like to think that the kids who are exposed to gay people earlier on, would then tend to carry over feelings of acceptance and tolerance into their adulthood.

                  Case in point is my family; my parents are quite anti-gay (mom thinks its sad, and dad thinks it plain wrong) yet my brothers and I all don't have a problem with it. I find that encouraging [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

                  Thanks Robby and Barnie! Glad that my attempt to express my thoughts came out right [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

                  Comment


                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by betsyk:
                    (bringing this back to the horse theme...)

                    So do we think that kids who spend time in the horse world will be more accepting of different people and different lifestyles because they're exposed to it sooner? and in a setting where it's more accepted than in mainstream society? How do the teenagers at your barns react? what conversations do you overhear? are we adults doing a good job of modeling acceptance?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    If you had posted this a few minutes sooner I could have responded in my other post, sigh....

                    In any event, I am going to say a big fat no to this one. When I think of people I have met through horses and my friends outside of horse, I would definitely say that those outside of horses are more open and accepting. I don't know why, it may just be a coincidence, but that is what I have observed (just from general comments and conversations I have heard, or overheard, I haven't done a poll).

                    ~ Charter Member of the Welsh Cob clique ~

                    Comment


                    • I pondered the "what about hetero married couples that don't want kids" question, too.

                      THEN I remembered when I got married - we had to fill out questionaires and meet with the priest weekly, and one of the first questions in writing and verbally was - "do you plan to have children?".

                      It depends on the priest - some will, and some will not marry a couple that does not plan to have kids.

                      But I digress way off topic with this reply - sorry!

                      Comment


                      • Weeell, this is completely non-scientific, but, it appears to me that (except the horse friends I have met through COTH) it appears that my horse friends are more conservative in many ways than my regular friends. Maybe it's my imagination. Or maybe it's because my regular friends are WACK.

                        What's wrong with sexy??
                        The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sannois:
                          Bulletin Board, and I'm frankly surprised that the moderators have let it continue. This is not appropriate, it is NOT horse related! I agree with the first replyer to this thread! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif[/img]
                          Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          Of course you are entitled to your opinion--we all are. I find this topic extremely appropriate.......it is very horse related in that many of my horse friends are gay. I find absolutely nothing wrong with the gay/bi/alternative lifestyles.....whatever floats your boat and makes you happy is what you should do. I prefer a man to make me happy! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Others do not and that's fine by me. I try desparately to be open as possible and not sit in judgement---sometimes I fail miserably in the attempt, but I do give it the old college try. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
                          Bethe Mounce
                          Head Trainer, AmeriCan Romance Equestrian
                          https://www.facebook.com/AmericanRomanceEquestrian
                          Brentwood CA

                          Comment


                          • I've been reading this thread with interest -- it's a great discussion -- but too d@#$ busy to post anything thoughtful this week. And after a week like that, I don't know if I can pull off anything thoughful right now.

                            I grew up in a place that was so wacked out progressive that my mother, I kid you not, didn't know what homophobia was. In high school when a friend of mine stopped by, irate, after a fight with her parents, I explained to my mom that my friend was upset with her family for being so homophobic. My mothers response, "they don't spend any time at home?" Uh, no mom, actually they think she is a lesbian. Mom says, "So what's the problem, exactly?".

                            I love mom.

                            I completely agree with so many of you. I think you fall in love with a person, and some people have the luxury of knowing in advance what gender that person will be. I find it amazing that people can say that even if the emotions were exactly right, if the gender was wrong they would walk away. That seems very sad.

                            For perspective, I live in the Boy's Town section of Chicago, a few blocks from a club called the Manhole. We decided to buy a place in this neighborhood after living there for three years because the neighborhood is very diverse, fun, and has the supportive community feel that I love. In some sense, I do feel like I am sheltering myself from the rest of the world, but at the end of the day I love walking down my street and seeing people of different incomes, races, sexual orinetations, and backgrounds sitting at the diner enjoying a meal with the people they love.

                            I love Robby's comment about gay people being more in tune to body language -- this makes a lot of sense to me. The other philosophy, which always makes me smile, is one that I heard on Whaddya Know on NPR. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, as it was said in fun. They were interviewing a gay man who had written a book about adopting a baby with his partner, and when asked what prompted him to write the book he said, "well, I'm allergic to dogs so the traditional route to gay parenting was closed to me..."

                            Maybe he should have tried adopting a horse, first!

                            --R

                            Rack me, I'm out.

                            Comment


                            • To bgoosewood and MardiGras:

                              I am sorry that I asked that question in my original post. I think I read the original question in a different context, but I couldn't quite capture what I wanted to say on this BB. So, I am sorry if my question was out of line. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]

                              And, yes, bgoosewood, you ARE right, I have gone through a lot of pain, but I am slowly getting some help and relief from it. It's been a long road for me and will most likely continute for a while.

                              Oh, by the way, Mardi Gras, you are hitting the nail on the head everytime you post! You are saying everything that I want to say, but in better form! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

                              *Note to self: Next time, THINK, before asking a question!* [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
                                At the end of the day, if you were face-to-face with JP (the Pope [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ), and you asked him if ostracizing gays and lesbians was acceptable, I can bet the farm on what his answer would be.
                                <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                Yeah sure.
                                But it would be followed by a "BUT sinners have to repent to get into heaven and not ACT on their urges." He would say don't ostacise child molesters/murders too!

                                RE gay marriage. I am honest-to-god-dead-serious-not-kidding; one of the arguments made before the court (by the various religious factions that had joined with the crown) was that "The idea of gay marriage is such an affront to out tradition of marriage, that we could no longer go on celebrating marriages in our church if it was legal for gays." Yeah.

                                Peptalk - I don't think it's offensive. It just makes me sad that anyone feels that way. Anyway, if you want to talk or anything, you can always send me email. (That goes for everyone).
                                Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MardiGras:
                                  "The idea of gay marriage is such an affront to out tradition of marriage, that we could no longer go on celebrating marriages in our church if it was legal for gays." Yeah.
                                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  This would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that some people actually do think this way. Please. Marriage to me is about a lifelong commitment that one person makes to another out of love. Ever watch "Divorce Court"? The "marriages" there are more of an affront to the tradition than any committed homosexual relationship could ever be.

                                  Back to the bumper sticker: My marriage doesn't need defending. Sorry to hear about yours!

                                  The Panchen Lama of DQs! (Second only to Velvet, the undisputed Dalai Lama of DQs.)

                                  Comment


                                  • To the poster who asked, I referred to the Catholic religion simply becasue it's what I am, and what I know best. I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Catholic Church's stance is unique among Christian denominations when it comes to homosexuality.

                                    RRB-- I'm your neighbor. What a great place, huh?

                                    LML

                                    *MidWest/Chicago Clique*
                                    *Cripple Clique*
                                    "With mirth and laughter, let old wrinkles come" (Shakespeare).

                                    Comment


                                    • That's all I want to say.

                                      SillyHorse
                                      ~ Even on a fast machine, an infinite loop takes a while to run.
                                      Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

                                      Comment


                                      • Oh, there were some even better arguments. I just don't think they'd be entirely appropriate for such a sensitive audience! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                                        I got to meet one women who is co-council on pretty much all of the glbtq cases in Canada - and she gave a run down of the various parties' arguments. I was NOT surprised when she said she judges were in stiches through parts of the proceeding.
                                        Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

                                        Comment


                                        • Re: "defining" marriage

                                          A marriage is a committment between two people. No matter what sort of legal agreement is signed, the marriage is in the heart, not on paper.

                                          That said, I think that it is ridiculous that gay couple have to go through thousands of dollars of legal work to get the same results that my $100 marriage license got me.

                                          And in truth, I don't find it surprising that people flip out about gay marriages, given that I have actually had people tell me that until I change my last name to my husband's last name, we won't be a "family".

                                          Riiiiiiight.

                                          --R

                                          note to LML: can't imagine living anywhere else in the city!

                                          Rack me, I'm out.

                                          Comment

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