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A question for the gay and lesbian BBers.

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  • Thankfully, the child can't yet read the anecdotes to follow.

    Sumo Toddler has become rather sexually aware this past summer and the gamut of his expression has ranged from kissing my mother's breasts (and then sharing with Hans in a revelatory moment, "Daddy! Oma has big boobies!") to kissing his brother and inquiring whether he thinks he's handsome. He's also stolen moments from his disapproving siblings to watch "Mary Kate and Ashley", has a fondness for hair clips ( [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] ); and will often wander in search of mommy for a cuddle and a 'torrid' (even as an infant, he'd glom on to your lips and not let go) kiss.

    Clearly at four, most of his 'interest' is driven by curiosity rather than sexuality but it does strike me that, as with many adults, sexuality is perhaps more of a continuum than we'd otherwise like to believe in our Judeo-Christian society.

    As to the legalization of gay marriages, the Toronto Courts ruled that the ban on gay marriages is unconstitutional. The city has elected not to challenge that ruling and it is the federal government which has decided to launch a protracted battle.

    Comment


    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
      No, but they are supporting that institution in it's mission of prejudice. Why would anyone oppose some certain form of discrimination, but then give money and support to an organization that PROMOTES that very same discrimination?
      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      Ok, I do agree with that. I suppose in a way, I draw a distinction between ATTENDING an organization's meetings (ok, so sunday mass counts as this), and actively working within the association, or giving money. I do the former, and only occasionally due to time constraints and the fact that I'm rather uncomfortable with the level of hypocrisy that I've been confronted with in the past.

      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The trouble is, not many people are willing to hold their church officials' toes to the fire, and pressure them into doing the right things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      I think it would be really hard to do that, though, as I do think the majority of people following their church do believe most of the mantras. Everyone I go to school with does. As such, I choose to just vocalize MY view if they bring up the subjects I strongly disagree with (there are a few...).

      IT also depends on each individual person. Some people aren't comfortable directly tackling upper authority. Personally, I'm more comfortable doing what I can in my own little circle - giving my peers something to think about in my disagreements, keeping my mind open and accepting EVERYONE - than jumping up and trying to change the world.

      This "defense of Marriage" act sounds like a joke. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif[/img]


      In regards to the original topic (I was late to the party, as always), I agree as well with "You are who you are". Genetics/Birth/Nature/Nurture/Environment all play a part in making EACH of us who we are, in different ways. EVeryone reacts to certain things differently, and everyone grows and evolves in different manners. And as we grow and evolve we become who we were meant to be, and who we ultimately are.

      BC

      *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
      Lindsay & Chance
      "Success is relative to how well you stay
      on the horse."
      ^^^^Proud member of the DCSC!^^^^
      &*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
      *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
      "Show me the back of a thoroughbred horse, and I will show you my wings."
      &*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&

      Comment


      • this ban on gay marriages is just a usurpation (is that a word?) of individual rights. it's all part of the same mindset that makes getting health care coverage for one's partner difficult, that makes adopting children (look at the disgrace in Florida) obtaining life insurance policies, next of kin permission in hospitalization - needlessly complicated and difficult. i look forward to the day that i can call my daughter's partner my "daughter-in-law" and have it mean something legally.
        www.judyreenesinger.com

        Comment


        • Sumo Toddler is SOOOOOOOO cute. And after the night at Five, I can say if it does sort out, he's a lucky little tyke to have you for a mom!

          xoxo

          Robby

          p.s. Janeway, you hit the nail on the head!

          You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.
          When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

          Comment


          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
            No, but they are supporting that institution in it's mission of prejudice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            I completely agree with you. I think you've really taken the moral high road on this one. I like to think I have too, specifically regarding the catholic church. In fact it bugs me a lot that my non believing father insists on participating just to impress his mother. My sister is also christian, but she's young, so again, I don't feel I should ultimatly hold her to the same standard.

            However, for the rest of the world, I kind of have to let it go. I think I do make my point of view known, but beyond that I also have to live and let live. Part of not having other people forcing their beliefs on me, is me not forcing mine on them. Yes it bothers me, but I also have to regard it as human imperfection. I am SURE I have some unpleasent inconsistencies in areas which I do not value so highly.

            I am actually pretty "up" on all of the current gay/lesbian court proceedings, both in regards to marriage and the adoption cases. The marriage case may been won in Ontario, but I will bet a lot of money that it will be appealed. My guess it that it will be heard along with the BC case in the Supreme court. If anyone wants more info, it's actually something I know a bit about.
            Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

            Comment


            • The whole concept of marriage came about from primogeniture amongst the rich. The poor rarely got married. The concept of marriage has definately evolved over the years- it is no longer necessary just to ensure your land and money passes to your blood. Therefore, since the original concept of marriage is not the basis for the majority of marriages today, why can't gays marry? Marriage today is more of a pledging of love between two people. By saying gays cannot marry is almost like saying they cannot love another person like a straight person can (I hope that makes sense [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img] ).

              I just don't see where people get the energy to get so up in arms over things like gay marriages. In the long run, how much does it really affect them if Jim and Bob next door are married? Sheesh... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

              Comment


              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:

                Well, as to the Sierra Clubber, the dude consumes far more resources in his bigger-than-the-biggest-schoolbus camper on his frequent camping trips than he preserves in his compost heap. So yes, in a literal sense it does negate what he does for the environment.

                Well, crap. Guess I might as well stop composting, since I negate it with my camper. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

                If the number of people who actually claim to oppose maquilladoras actually DID something about it, Wal-Mart would be out of business by now.

                Nope. Prices would just be higher and more Mexicans would be crossing the border to get a job instead of working at home. And spelled with one 'l'.

                I dunno, maybe it's just me but I can't excuse people for being unmoved as they witness injustice. It's a real pet peeve of mine.

                The best thing you can do is live your life the most honorable way possible and hope it rubs off on someone else. I would find it way too much of an ego trip to only like, respect, admire and surround myself with people who thought exactly the same. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                ****
                Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
                *****
                You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:

                  And spelled with one 'l'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  And you're missing a word in that sentence, like, perhaps, "it's."

                  Comment


                  • I'm sorry that I have not been around for this one! I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through the replies - such great insight and thoughts behind all the posts.

                    Although I admit I too doubted the sincerity of the orginal post, the answers have been very inspiring. It has been a great read. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

                    All I can add is that for me I've always known I was gay. I've always just been me [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] (well, ok, I did try to be more like George Michael from WHAM back in the 80's [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] )

                    I love whoever's quote it was up above about most bi women being straight and bi men gay! How true!!

                    More personally though, and I get the impression some of you think its sad that I do this, but I do associate myself with being "straight-acting". I have always admired Robby for his more flaming viewpoint [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img] but its not something I have been able to share. Probably because as someone who works in the mining industry I am very aware that a nancy-boy just doesn't cut it. I mean hell, I dress in plaid (shut up Heidi! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ) wear work boots and jeans and tromp around in the field a lot of the time - my poor sequined designer clothes and Prada shoes just wouldn't hold up! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                    I don't know, I think its something hard to explain - guess I don't like to be labeled. But never fear, I do let loose during Gay Pride week [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]
                    You Strike Me Still

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
                      But never fear, I do let loose during Gay Pride week.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      You wear your Prada shoes WITH the plaid flannel shirts? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                      Comment


                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:

                        More personally though, and I get the impression some of you think its sad that I do this, but I do associate myself with being "straight-acting". I have always admired Robby for his more _flaming_ viewpoint [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img] but its not something I have been able to share. Probably because as someone who works in the mining industry I am very aware that a nancy-boy just doesn't cut it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        Easy there. No one said anyone was flaming around here, but if you act a different way than what comes naturally to you, then you *are* lying to yourself. And you are allowing yourself to be discriminated against.

                        If, by nature, you just seem to be a straight guy then hey, that's fine.

                        My favorite stereotype is the big pumped up gym god. You know the one. Looks like Tarzan, sound like Jane.

                        Robby

                        You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.
                        When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

                        Comment


                        • The best thing you can do is live your life the most honorable way possible and hope it rubs off on someone else. I would find it way too much of an ego trip to only like, respect, admire and surround myself with people who thought exactly the same.
                          ____________________________________

                          I wouldn't want to condemn someone for holding a viewpoint that differed from mine.

                          I think we are in danger of straying from the original point of the thread though.


                          "For the dead and the living we must bear witness."

                          Comment


                          • I've known both "kinds" of gay men and I think there are those that are flaming naturally and those that are trying really hard(think Sanford on Sex & The City or Jack from Will & Grace). Several of my gay male friends have their "butch work persona" and their "going out flaming persona"...and those are their words, not mine. I think its still tough to go to work at alot of jobs and be out and out "gay"...

                            Aqha Clique
                            Can you stress-fracture your brain?

                            Comment


                            • Jair - I too, as do many of the gay people I know, pass. I have even been known to wear pink and put on makeup. But frankly, things haven't changed a bit since I came out, and I wouldn't want them too because I'd rather just be who I am than some stereotype. I wear my pride bracelet - anyone who wants to know can, they just have to be a little observant (and not assume that I work with the various GLBTQ groups on campus cause I'm really damn gay-friendly).
                              Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heineken:
                                I think its still tough to go to work at alot of jobs and be out and out "gay"...
                                <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                I solved that problem - I have various gay things on my resume. If it bugs you, don't hire me in the first place! Then again, it is all too common that people assume you do it all cause it's your pet cause, not cause you're ACTUALLY gay.
                                Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

                                Comment


                                • I'll try to keep this short, sweet and to the point...Maybe.

                                  When I was in school, I did a few things that might have been a litle "odd" to some people, but I didn't think anything of it at the time. For example,in preschool, I had a crush on a guy and so did my best friend. My best friend ended up with him. Later on in second or 3rd grade, I started kissing my mother on the month before I went to bed. Didn't think anything of it, but my mother was a little like "OK...". When I was in the seventh grade, I had a crush on a guy in my music class for two days. "OK, whatever," thought little old me. When I was in the 8th grade, I wanted to kiss a reallly cute girl im my English class. Lightbulb moment for me. That was me and myself. That was me in my own skin and bones. I started to realize that I didn't really like guys in the "traditional" sense of the word(i.e. physically, mentally, sexually etc.) I liked women(or girls, at that time.) Gulp... I was scared and afraid and everything in between. What was I thinking? I can't be "this". I couldn't be a lesbian. The truth of the matter is, I was and still am and forever will be a lesbian. I am thankful for the support of most of my family memebers because they have "been there." Through my numerous suicide thoughts, depression thoughts and just plain sadness, they have said that I am an OK person and that I deserve to live a full and happy life with whomever I end up with...

                                  Ahh! Sorry you guys, I got off track there. Do I think that gay and lesbian and bisexual and trans people are born that way? I don't know and you know what, I don't care. Same with it being enivornemental. I have no clue. All I know is that people are who they are and that they should be celebrated for the reason that they can be truthful and honest about themselves.

                                  Just want to leave you with a question to ponder. I got this out of a book, I think, but I don't remember which one: Why would g/l/b/t people voluntarily become one of the most hated and opporssed minorites on Earth? Just a thought for some of the people who think that people choose their sexual orientation.

                                  *Kelly. Peace.*

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:

                                    _You wear your Prada shoes WITH the plaid flannel shirts? _ [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    you've got that right Babe! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

                                    Ok, I need to clarify my earlier statement. I've been away from writing posts for so long, I'm having problems articulating my thoughts in the written form.

                                    It sounds like I was calling Robby "flaming" which is not what I meant, as that doesn't sound very nice, especially as he is a dear friend! What I was trying to say is that I admire Robby for being a very openly gay individual, he has always told things as they are. I am quite a bit more closeted in comparison. So sorry Robby! I was only using the word flaming because it had come up in regards to the Homer Simpson quote, so I used it. In retrospect, it looks awful! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif[/img]

                                    Boy am I out of practice at this! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
                                    You Strike Me Still

                                    Comment


                                    • and we'll get you back in the swing of things in no time flat!

                                      Seriously, getting back to the topic, I've mentioned many times that I think the animals (dogs, cats, horses, etc.) are naturally appealing to gay kids/adults because their love is so unconditional.

                                      After spending a day in an office environment, repressing your feelings and yourself, it's nice to have a big puppy lick on the face.

                                      Or a really good medium trot (can you all tell I obsess over the medium - I think about them at theater, they affirm my homosexuality, etc., etc., [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ), whatever.

                                      As a gay person, you do have a somewhat heightened sense of intuition. What we all call our "gaydar." But why do you have it? Not because it's a precious sixth sense bestowed upon you at birth, but because you grow up learning how to read signs (mostly nonverbal) as you're usually always fearful, to some degree.

                                      I have no doubt that if I were a horse I'd either crib/weave/walk the stall (or all three) because of that strong flight reaction.

                                      Robby

                                      You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.
                                      When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

                                      Comment


                                      • Are you suggesting there's a connection between gaydar and one's ability to understand one's horse?? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
                                        Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
                                          but because you grow up learning how to read signs (mostly nonverbal) as you're usually always fearful, to some degree.

                                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Maybe something that women have in common with gay men (besides the barbie days of course) and why they feel "safe" with them; they know what it is to feel that fear.

                                          It's so easy to laugh; it's so easy to hate; it takes guts to be gentle and kind.... The Smiths
                                          The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                                          Comment

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