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A question for the gay and lesbian BBers.

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  • #361
    " posted Feb. 23, 2003 08:47 AM
    A lack of testosterone?

    Tell that to my furry bottom and balding head.

    Robby" I can tell you for fact, he is right...from his Mr. Ed photo shoot for the Aiden auction!!!

    But, I have also had very long talks with a gay friend of mine, who has now died about whether or not he was born gay or turned gay. This is what he always told me...He knew from a little boy, that he was different from other little boys, but did not quite know why at first. He said, by about 5 he knew he liked little boys and not little girls and knew he was different, but did not know why. He also told me many times he would get very drunk and tried to be with women, but could never ever follow through with a sexual act. I can fully understand this, I would not be able to follow through with a sexual act with another woman, because, I just am not attracked to them at all, being a straight woman. He also, told me which I've heard hear many times, if he could have chosen to be straight he would have, because being gay/different people are not kind to you. He loved kids and said it was impossible as a gay man to adopt kids, because the world believes you would turn the kid gay...NOT TRUE...especially as I believe you are born gay. And for those religious groups that say, if you go to church and pray really hard you will become straight and not be a sinner!!!! BULL S##T!!!!!

    I will also say, I have read some research that does show men who are gay have a higher than normal female horomone than straight men and the the same for women but opposite with higher male horomones. And that women who have stressful pregnancys and have severe horomone changes, also have gay babies more often.

    So, I do vote for the being born with who you are.

    Last but not least, some of my best friends, male and female are gay...I do not care what their sexual preferences are, just who they are as a person.

    Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
    http://www.norsire.com
    Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

    Comment

    • #362
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JesslynW:
      (snip) Lets see, aren't gay men usally more organized also. This may be completely off in all retrospects, but does anyone else see it this way?

      Jess
      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      Maybe my boss isn't a good example to go by... his office is a disaster zone, he is very successful at his job, but organized... The jury is still out on that, but he does try hard .

      Jo

      *** Remember that eagles may soar, but weasels very seldomly get sucked into jet engines ***
      ~~Some days are a total waste of makeup.~~

      Comment

      • #363
        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JesslynW:
        Okay, I'm not experenced the g/l world, but had an insight in it's own. Well, the question was if
        "because I was wondering if men and women come into the horse world straight and are influenced by the other gay and lesbian people."

        As for the gay men, it accured to me that they excell in the sport horse world because it's more of a finess sport. Reading subtle signals, paying attention to details(of course gay men are typically better dressers, as in details), not reacting with violence, and other sterotypes&lt;not to sound derogatory, this is in a goodway&gt; that would help you be a better rider overall. Lets see, aren't gay men usally more organized also. This may be completely off in all retrospects, but does anyone else see it this way?

        Jess
        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
        Very interesting comment that you make... Makes me think... Hmmmmmm..... (scratching head)

        Horsey folks are stable people

        Comment

        • #364
          I have been picking through this thread for a while now, reading the arguments about hormones/lackofhormones, born/made, etc...

          I know someone who was straight, married, and had a child...but her husband was horribly abusive. One day, he put a gun to her head, and told her he would kill her and their child if she ever left him.

          She called her folks, who immediately bought her a plane ticket to go home. She filed for divorce, and got it.

          Now she has a live-in girlfriend. They both are happily raising the child.

          Is she lesbian by choice. Yep, youbetcha. Do you blame her? I don't.

          ~Disclaimer:
          The opinions expressed in this post are not neccessarily the views of this poster.~
          ~This is *way* more fun than doing something productive~

          Comment

          • #365
            I still think you are born Gay. Have you ever asked her if that is why she, then started dating women? I know, one couple very well, that is married, had 3 kids and was marrried for 25 years when he told his wife, he always like men and was gay. He lived a long lie, trying to be someone, he was not in his heart of hearts. He told her, he did love her, but not like he loved men and prefered a male sexual partner. He also, begged her to stay married to him becuase he is a well know Dr. in his very southern baptis are of TX. He actually asked her if he would stay with him for 4 nights a week and stay with her 3 nights a week so it would look like they were still happily married. So, moral of the story is, some people because of such religious back grounds will have a fake marriage, to make it look like they are straight people from the outside. I do know a second couple also same deal married 20 plus years and 3 kids, left and divorced his wife, because he lived a lie for many years to please family, church and others. So, maybe your friend's heart was always with women and after the lie, she finally went on to love a woman, which was were her heart lied. So, let me also ask this, if her Lesbian lover pulled a guy on her and threatened to kill her, would she then go back to men again? Not all men are monsters as the one husband she had. I think if she truely, was straight she would have found another man, in time after her wounds had healed. Just some thoughts.

            Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
            http://www.norsire.com
            Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club

            Comment

            • #366
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
              In fact most every rider I know male or female is in a proper boy-girl marriage with children. Thanks for promoting the stereotype.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              A proper boy-girl marriage?

              Are you sure you're not a little biased there Mark?

              Robby

              "Don't mince words, don't be evasive
              Speak your mind, be persuasive"
               Madonna
              When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

              Comment

              • #367
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by McLeanHunterRider:
                [QUOTE]Originally posted by no longer a BBer:
                [QUOTE]Originally posted by McLeanHunterRider:
                Just my two cents...

                snip snip

                IMHO, I believe that gayness is caused by a lack of hormones (testorone). That is what causes gayness... I hope I don't get too flamed for saying this... Also, the book that I mentioned earlier is a really good book, and I would reccomened to anyone who wants to find out more!

                Horsey folks are stable people<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                You've gotta go listen to the episode on testosterone that This American Life did (oops, gotta get off the BB so I can go listen to this weeks show!). There was a segment where a bunch of the staffers - male and female - had their testosterone levels checked and they all guessed who would have the most. Guess which male had the most. (If I remember correctly, but I have a horrible memory!)

                Anyway, according to one of these lovely theories I should be a lesbian - my 4th finger is substantially longer than my 2nd finger. Don't tell my husband. Or the really wonderful woman who had a major crush on me for a time.

                Comment

                • #368
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Norsire:
                  I still think you are born Gay. Have you ever asked her if that is why she, then started dating women? I know, one couple very well, that is married, had 3 kids and was marrried for 25 years when he told his wife, he always like men and was gay. He lived a long lie, trying to be someone, he was not in his heart of hearts. He told her, he did love her, but not like he loved men and prefered a male sexual partner. He also, begged her to stay married to him becuase he is a well know Dr. in his very southern baptis are of TX. He actually asked her if he would stay with him for 4 nights a week and stay with her 3 nights a week so it would look like they were still happily married. So, moral of the story is, some people because of such religious back grounds will have a fake marriage, to make it look like they are straight people from the outside. I do know a second couple also same deal married 20 plus years and 3 kids, left and divorced his wife, because he lived a lie for many years to please family, church and others. So, maybe your friend's heart was always with women and after the lie, she finally went on to love a woman, which was were her heart lied. So, let me also ask this, if her Lesbian lover pulled a guy on her and threatened to kill her, would she then go back to men again? Not all men are monsters as the one husband she had. I think if she truely, was straight she would have found another man, in time after her wounds had healed. Just some thoughts.

                  Home to the stallions Zillionair, Billionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
                  http://www.norsire.com
                  Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club
                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


                  Sigh. I wasn't gonna add to this topic because it is VERY relevant to my life, but Norsire, you are right on.

                  I am 32 years old and a lesbian. I've been married to men twice, I tried so hard to conform, to fit the image, it's so damn much easier in this world to be straight than gay. I knew from the time I could discern such things that I was different, that I wasn't like most people out there. But I tried, everyone expected it. It just wasn't there, could never be there, and I was so miserable. I was trying so damn hard to be something I wasn't. And it wasn't worth it.

                  So now I live with my girlfriend, and for the first time in my life, I am free. Free to be who I really am, and God am I happy. You would all think I was straight if you saw me, I sure don't fit the "image"...I have long blonde hair, look very scandinavian, I wear makeup and red lipstick and have my nails done and get pedicures, and dress in the latest fashions (usually.) I am hit on by men all the time. And it's about so much more than sex. It's about a heart connection, a soul connection, and finding the place where it all fits.

                  I am certainly not an "in your face" lesbian, there are many of those out there who make a bad name for all of us by forcing our sexuality at everyone in the world. I don't agree with that, and I also am bothered by the straight people out there who are afraid of gay people because they are afraid we will hit on them. We have something that is called in the vernacular "gaydar". Most of us won't even bother to hit on a straight person, much as you all wouldn't bother to hit on a gay person.....not our type.

                  And there are so many lesbians out there. Many many many more than you could even guess, because not all of us look the part. I was shocked when first introduced to this world by the sheer number of us out there, those of us who go to work, have great friends, go to bed and get up in the morning like the rest of society without shoving our sexuality in everyone's face.

                  When I was growing up, the barn I boarded at had several lesbian couples. Shoot, I didn't even figure it out till I was sixteen or so, when the lightbulb lit. And really, who cares? They are happy, they are living their lives, and not once did ANY of them try to force their lifestyle on anyone. They were (are) wonderful people, and I am grateful for what I have learned about horses from them.

                  I also know several women like myself, who tried and tried to fit the American dream....marriage, kids, house, Volvo, etc, who are now living the gay lifestyle. It wasn't for them, as it wasn't for me. I don't think that anyone can change you into being gay if it's not in you in the first place.

                  Anyway, that's my two cents worth.

                  &gt;^.,.^&lt;
                  ~~Linda
                  (Poster formerly known as BlueGreenBlue)

                  "My treasures do not clink or glitter; they gleam in the sun and neigh in the night"

                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  You can't have everything. Where would you put it all?

                  Comment

                  • #369
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A proper boy-girl marriage?
                    Are you sure you're not a little biased there Mark?
                    Robby<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    It all depends on what the definition of "marriage" is..in some states a civil union between boys or between girls is "proper" and held on the same equivalence of a civil union between boys & girls (i.e. a marriage). However a civil union and a marriage have fundamentally different definitions. I'm biased towards marriage and not civil unions as being "proper". But I am not passing judgement, I only need to worry with my fundamentals.

                    AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk
                    2002 AWS Gold Medal Novice Award
                    Cool Breeze Farm, LLC

                    Comment

                    • #370
                      Quote: As for the GLBT issue. I've left beloved churches and denominations, namely the Methodist Church, for their inability to recognize GLBT relationships as something other than living in sin.

                      The Unitarian Church is very accepting and welcoming to all who come (if God created all of us in his image and God does not make mistakes, ergo. . .) I myself am not Christian, but if I had to be they would be the ones for me!

                      ~Bev

                      -----------------------
                      Finnegans Wake
                      1992
                      Irish Sport Horse x Hanoverian
                      16.1hh
                      bay
                      -----------------------
                      Finnegans Wake
                      1992
                      Irish Sport Horse x Hanoverian
                      16.1hh
                      Finn's photo album http://community.webshots.com/user/finnegan24100

                      Comment

                      • #371
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quote: As for the GLBT issue. I've left beloved churches and denominations, namely the Methodist Church, for their inability to recognize GLBT relationships as something other than living in sin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        According to the bible by which they must follow they are not going to recognize GLBT relationships as what God intended (Adam & Eve in Genesis). If they did many others would leave for biblically sound reasons.

                        God doesn't make mistakes..a gay person is no more a "mistake" than a mentally retarded child. Each human will have its own battles in life whether they are genetic, moral or social. Free Will allows us all to choose a path to follow.

                        If this country is founded on freedom of religion, then why does it only recognize a marriage between boy & girl (minus the few who recognize civil unions)? Muslims are allowed more than one wife, but not legally in this country..so then if the Unitarian Church were to condone GLBT relationships (for instance) why does the government have a say in it?

                        I would rather see marriage held in the moral standards of one's religion or not, than to see the government set the standard (majority rules).

                        AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk
                        2002 AWS Gold Medal Novice Award
                        Cool Breeze Farm, LLC

                        Comment

                        • #372
                          Not to worry Finnegan, I returned to my liberal roots, the United Church of Christ which adopted an open and affirming position back in the 80s. Any given Sunday, you'll find a lesbian minister in the pulpit, happy committed couples of all flavors from straight to gay to racially mixed, to black, to white, to Asian, old people, young people, and lots and lots of kids.

                          What is Margaret Cho's quote? "A country that denies a gay man the right of a bridal registry
                          is a fascist state."

                          "If you ain't got it in ya, you can't blow it out." Pops

                          Comment

                          • #373
                            Personally, I think some gay men and women are "born" gay and some are bi-sexual with more decided leanings to one sex or another.
                            My dear friend John (GRHS) knew that he preferred men even as a little boy.
                            Or as he explained it, "Everybody thought Annette Funicello was cute and I couldn't figure out why I liked Cubby better."

                            I also find it humorous that many Christians are apparently unaware that marriage was not initally considered a sacrament until the 12th century.
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However a civil union and a marriage have fundamentally different definitions. I'm biased towards marriage and not civil unions as being "proper". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                            All marriages were "civil" unions.

                            Comment

                            • #374
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I also find it humorous that many Christians are apparently unaware that marriage was not initally considered a sacrament until the 12th century.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Christians considered marriage to be a sacrament well before the 12th century as evidenced by St. Paul in Ephesians v.25-32 ref: http://www.catholic-forum.com/commun...rary/194.shtml

                              Now you mentioned 12th century...could you be talking of the the Troubadours who were the first ones who thought of love in the same way we do now. The whole notion of romance apparently didn't exist until medieval times, and the troubadours. ref; http://condor.depaul.edu/~dsimpson/t...urtlylove.html

                              AWS Elite Stallion - Manahawk
                              2002 AWS Gold Medal Novice Award
                              Cool Breeze Farm, LLC

                              Comment

                              • #375
                                I find it astonishing that you have all gone on for 19 pages about this idea. What is so strange about a female who recognizes that females are better males. Afterall males are made from a defective chromosone that poor little X. I think most women are basically female chauvinists. Whether or not that extends to the bedroom is another issue. I personally think that God realized what an error he made with Adam so he made Eve to straighten out things that Adam just couldn't get down. No doubt why she gave Adam that apple from the tree of knowledge, she figured it would help him be a little brighter.

                                Why should we be surprised that there are men who think men are better, afterall isn't that who we all pick as a mate. So why wouldn't some very clever men figure out that was a good idea.

                                And, above homophobia there are a thousand rungs on the ladder. My husband has been my best friend since I was 15, but if he hadn't been it's quite possible my best friend could have been a female. So What?

                                We are people and just as there are no two of us exactly alike in our physical presence there is not going to be two alike in any other way.
                                Individuality is a beautiful thing and our real gift from God. If he had wanted us all to be the same he could have used a cookie cutter on that clay.

                                The Bible is rampant with stories of homosexuality, prostitution, murder, incest and lust. we wouldn't have the Middle East problem today if Sarah hadn't worried about her son being the 2nd born so she sent Ishmael the 1st born and Hagor out in the desert. If Sarah could have been a little more tolerant Ishmael would have stayed a Jew instead of starting his own thing, and there would not be this endless fight over Abraham's estate.(I wonder if that's why so many Muslims want to hide their women?

                                Men on the other hand who admire other men as most beautiful are quite right the male body is the only thing more beautiful in composition than a horse. Sorry girls, we come in 3rd in that race.

                                I think the issue is much more complicated because a woman who loves women is not going to love a woman who thinks acts like a man, nor is a man who loves men going to think that a man who thinks he's a girl is an adequate substitute.

                                It just plain different strokes for different folks. Some of it may be hormones and some of it may be a confused gender identity and who even cares about all the asexuals who just don't love anybody because they don't have any sexual identity.

                                We are all creatures of great variety and just like blue eyes or green eyes may have a different reaction than brown eyes.

                                What we all have in common is we are people and it is silly to quote the bible written by our ancesters as the only answer to all the mysteries of the world. Because there are tons of great teachings from mega civilizations that believed things quite contrary to our convictions today. Who can be certain who is correct, because 400 years from now what we believe may be totally ignored. OH! I know don't get your knickers twisted it's a matter of faith.

                                Well, the cannabals believed it was their responsibility to keep their ancesters with them always by eating them. The Aztecs believed they needed blood from the King's genitals for their ceremonies, the poor guy really need to be a quick healer.

                                Battle Scarred Veteran
                                http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                                Comment

                                • #376
                                  Snowbird, I couldn't agree more- well said

                                  Comment

                                  • #377
                                    Just thought I'd bring this up-

                                    I brought up this topic in class (Saying "That is so gay") and you know what the teacher said???

                                    It's not a problem as long as you know the sexual preference of everyone in the group you are speaking to.

                                    WHAT? Discrimination is NEVER OKAY!

                                    Dressager
                                    No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman
                                    You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

                                    Comment

                                    • #378
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I would rather see marriage held in the moral standards of one's religion or not, than to see the government set the standard (majority rules).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you suggesting that only religious people should be allowed to marry?

                                      Janet
                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment

                                      • #379
                                        Yay Snowbird!

                                        I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf
                                        The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                                        Comment

                                        • #380
                                          Ok...just a thought but WAY back in ancient times, "gay" relationships were "normal". Men got married to have babies, they also had lovers, male and female, to make them happy. Women had lovers too. You didn't GET MARRIED for happiness, you did it to procreate and continue the line, and for money or land or camels. It is OUR Puritan society that has caused a stigma...over the past three hundred years or so, NOT from much before that. Half the kings in Europe were "gay", married and had kids. Their lovers were married too, and you know what? It was NORMAL. Just some food for thought...

                                          "Heineken Posts Solid 2002 Earnings"
                                          Can you stress-fracture your brain?

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