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A question for the gay and lesbian BBers.

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  • MissCapitalSplash> I would never have guessed your age, you are very mature and brave- your mom(s) raised you well

    A friend I grew up with has been gay all his life. I knew it, friends knew it but he denied it. It wasnt until this summer where he admitted it and it was wonderful! I got to see this guy who had been in a shell all his life just blossom into full life I don't care that he's gay; he doesn't care that I'm straight

    ~ Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once ~

    [This message was edited by Tin on Feb. 18, 2003 at 10:29 PM.]
    ~ they tease you cause they like you ~

    Comment


    • Last week I was riding home on a very crowded Metro subway (standing room only). The train lurched at one point, and I was thrown backwards into a teenaged boy and some of his friends. Despite my profuse apologies (and it's not like I did it on purpose), this kid really took offense.

      Apparently, since I have short hair, wasn't wearing make up, and was wearing clogs, he decided I was a lesbian. The entire 25 minute ride home consisted of him making very demeaning, very frightening, very crude cracks at me (language I cannot repeat on this or any board minors read). This was really raw, evil stuff coming from a 15-year-old's mouth (at least, that's how old he looked)!

      As I said, the train was packed. Not only that, but there was a police officer just a few rows ahead of us. Everyone heard everything. No one said anything. Everyone--police officer inlcuded--just stared at their feet.

      I couldn't figure out whether I should get off the train (and run the risk of them following me onto a less populated platform) or just fake deafness/obliviousness. I did the latter.

      Finally, the kid and his cohorts got off the train. When they did so, I realized my face was burning, I was literally shaking, my throat was dry, my chest was tight, and I was panicked. I have never, ever, ever been so scared.

      And you know what, even after the idiots got off that train not a soul said one word to me or would even make eye contact with me. It was as if I were contaminated somehow.

      As soon as I got to my car I burst into tears, and it took me 15 minutes to pull myself together (I really have never had anything coming close to that kind of language directed at me). Of course, then I thought of 1,000 excellent retorts that didn't occur to me while I was actually on the train!

      Once I got home I realized that this was a one-time, scarey occurrance for me (a straight female who just happens to have short hair, doesn't wear make up, and occassionally wears clogs). But it's probably a more frequent happening for gays and lesbians. I can't imagine the anxiety of having to deal with that kind of hatred on a more regular basis.

      And it wasn't just the hatred those idiots were spewing at me (and I can't say enough how ugly it was). It was the fact that everyone on the train acted like, because I was accused of being a lesbian, somehow I was less than human and not deserving of protection or even a kind word after the idiots left.

      I guess I'm sharing all of this because it was really eye opening for me to see just how much ugliness is out there.

      I'm glad many gays and lesbians find the horse world accepting of them and they feel comfortable there. It seems it's a tough world out there. I'm pleased to be part of a nicer side of it, and I hope it only gets better.

      Comment


      • I feel proud to be "raised" in the horse world. My trainer was gay (I say was because he is now passed on). And I have been around homosexuals all my life. I am proud that I was never taught to Hate and never taught to feel that segregation. I am thankful I was raised by parents that loved every type of person incuding race and sexuality. The horsey world has it's own "norms" and sometimes I wish it was everyone's norms.

        Great thread I enjoyed reading it.

        ~~Lisa~~
        Organ donation: a gift for kids to grow UP on
        ~~Lisa~~

        www.caringbridge.org/fl/aiden

        Comment


        • Oh Dogs, I am so sorry for you. Yes, that is exactly how it feels. Anxiety and always looking out of the corner of your eye. And for God's sake, being threatened by a 15 year-old child. Can you only imagine what his homelife is like? But don't rush out to the MAC counter and the Blahnik salon. You keep being you.

          Hobson, I clearly am not a trained rape counselor, but I find the psychology behind sex crimes very fascinating. My thought is that a sexual perpetrator uses sex and the power of the violation to manipulate the victim and thus achieve the affirmation they are lacking in their life.

          I don't think a rapist says, "man, I think I'm going to get laid tonight" and considers the means at which he goes about it a normal sexual hook-up.

          Robby

          "Don't mince words, don't be evasive
          Speak your mind, be persuasive"
          Madonna
          When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

          Comment


          • Robby - Your signatures are always insightful, and I think the one you have right now couldn't be more fitting for this thread.

            I have spent more time than I should have reading this thread, but am so glad that I did. What amazing people you all are!

            Eomer, - I am sorry for what you have to go through, and can emphasize with instinctively blaming everyone of a 'type' since it happened to you (heck I still don't trust small grey arabs because of two that made my childhood riding lessons he&& ). The men that you met all belong to the species homo maximus a$$holeous) With all the wonderful gay men out there I am thankful that you may be able to put that association behind you, especially since there is a strong possibility that it was untrue all along.

            I have met good and bad people, straight and gay, and have learned that the only thing that is predictable about people is their unpredictability . How I wish the acceptance that is found on this board was more apparent in the rest of the world (and that's coming from a straight gal with absolutely no horrible personal stories to contribute).

            Hmmmmm, I am definitely missing the eloquence that so many on this board have, but it will have to do for now......

            Take care,

            Alixe

            Comment


            • What happend to dog's is exactly the point I was trying to make, how people look and act shouldn't be all we form our opinions on. As humans we use all of our senses as we interact in this world. Often we leave out common sense.

              Maybe I should have left my "experiences" out of it, but because of them I'm probably not the most neutral poster here. But I've gone through life unaware that people are homosexual or black or brown or yellow or ... . I have friends I don't have gay friends or colored friends or fat friends or cycling friends or cowboy buddies ... . I wish I could be like Will Rogers, but I've met pleanty of people I didn't like and wouldn't call friend but it wasn't because they were <fill in your negative type here> it was because they were mean or dishonest or rude, or just an a$$#!@%$ in general.

              I find it funny that some responses to my posts are so hateful. By people that are telling "ME" that "I" need to be more accepting. Oh, did I have hippocrits in the list of people I won't call friend? Put it at the top.

              I plan to live forever ...
              ... so far so good.
              \"The fool on the hill\"

              Comment


              • I do have a question for anyone who may be able to answer. With teenagers today it's very popular to call something or someone gay if it's uncool, weird, etc. How does this effect you? I (being non-gay, but of the mindset that whatever anyone wants to do in their personal life is fine) find this rude and try to stay away from conversations that involve this kind of behavior. One person suggested that the reason people call other people or things gay is because they themselves are uncomfortable about their own sexuality.

                I hope this doesn't offend anyone but I was curious to see how others take it.

                Dressager
                You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

                Comment


                • The way I see it, love is a privilege- and if me or any of my dearest and most beloved friends were LUCKY enough to today or tomorrow, fall in love, and have intellectual, chemical and lifestyle rapport with their partner(s) I would fall down on my knees and THANK GOD (or the Universe or the random electrons or whatever) for the opportunity to do so. It wouldn't matter if my gay friends fell head over heels for women (although I'd be jealous because I wasn't chosen) I would cry tears of joy.

                  And that's that.

                  -N

                  www.naominickerson.com
                  soon changing name to: PortraitPainter
                  www.naominickerson.com
                  specializing in equine and canine portraiture and other fine art
                  *hold onto your breath, hold onto your heart, hold onto your hope*

                  Comment


                  • Dressager- This is exactly what I am talking about that goes on in my school. People are already starting to change for the better, they won't make homosexual cracks around me because they know I will jump down their throats. They won't make them in class or in the halls as well because should anyone hear, they will be written up and suffer the consequences. Our school is very small (grades 7-12 with only 480 kids)and not diverse (we have 1 non-caucasion and very few non-catholics). Therefore, it is easy for the kids here to make jokes or form stereotypes because they are not exposed. We are trying to raise awareness and avoid these closed minded opionions. We have a long way to go, but we aer getting somewhere!
                    I VERY seldom hear the "that is so gay" or "you are so gay" anymore, and if I do, it is usually followed by an apology and a better explanation.
                    There is never any excuse for ignorance, and I am trying to stop this as ebst I can, one step at a time!

                    ** Proud member of the Klutz Klique and the Appaloosa Clique**
                    If riding were all blue ribbons and bright lights, I would have quit long ago.
                    ~George Morris

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
                      What happend to dog's is exactly the point I was trying to make, how people look and act shouldn't be all we form our opinions on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      Gee, eomer, now I am confused...didn't you originally say your opinion of gay men was formed by how they acted (in relation to you)?

                      My horse bucked off your honor student!

                      Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

                      Comment


                      • Posting a gritch that has absolutely nothing to do with the basic topic, tolerance or anything else truly serious:

                        I WISH that the word "gay" and the symbol of the rainbow were not so totally associated with homosexuality.

                        "Gay" used to be a lovely word describing a certain feeling of lightness and joy. No-one dares use it in any context other than sexual preference now. For example, there's a Scottish country dance called the Gie' (Gay) Gordons - even that draws snickers.

                        I love rainbows. Had a wonderful stained glass suncatcher in my house and a decal suncatcher in my car. Imagine my amazement (told ya' I'm oblivious ) when one of my friends informed me of the "new" meaning thereof.

                        Also, why the differentiation between "gay" (male) and lesbian? Why aren't homosexuals (that's a prejudicial word, sorry, but I don't know a different general word) of either gender included as "gay"? Does even the gay world discriminate against females? I know, I know - I'm such a feminist!

                        In fact, thinking about the last paragraph, why have a separate designation for gays at all? Isn't that prejudice in itself? Wouldn't it be good to work toward a world where it isn't necessary to make such distinctions? Unless you're dating someone, who cares what your preference is - and your choice of date will make that preference clear without slapping a label on it.

                        I've been hit on by straight men and lesbians. I have no wish to date lesbians but have never found it necessary to do anything but smile and say something to the effect of, Thanks for the compliment; that's not my path. I've never gotten a negative reaction to a polite refusal - well, except from some of the straight men. If you think about it, any expression of interest indicating that someone finds you worth their time is a compliment. It's not necessary to accept an offer, but it's not insulting to receive it.

                        Now, these gritches are really really small in light of the real problems our society hands to the gay community, but I just wonder.....

                        All the above is JMHO, as usual.

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "gambit"
                          Gee, eomer, now I am confused <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          No kidding? READ (all of) what I wrote not just the parts you find offensive. MAYBE you won't be so confused ... naw.

                          I plan to live forever ...
                          ... so far so good.
                          \"The fool on the hill\"

                          Comment


                          • this has been an enlightening thread. Many of you seem like just amazing, tolerant people. Just thought I'd voice my opinion, too.

                            My senior year of high school, two good (female, but it doesn't make a difference) friends came out. Almost everyone's response was "Oh, okay. Good for you." No one cared. It didn't change who they were. And that's what it comes down to for me, as far as prejudice in general. I don't care WHAT people are (gay, straight, black, white, hispanic, green with purple spots...) I care WHO they are. Are they a good friend with whom I have a good relationship? Are they kind, loyal, nice people? I'm not a big fan of labels of any sort. I've been labelled before, and it makes dealing with certain aspects of myself (not relating to this topic) all that much harder.

                            As far as the born in/becoming question... I think there's something more complex going on in the human brain than can be explained by clearly seperating those two choices. For it to be born in, it seems there would have to be something (a region of the brain, perhaps, or a certain chemical made) to initiate the behavior. And while that is a possibility, I believe there's a number of social factors deeply effecting a person's behavior in personal relationships (any type of behavior).

                            I'd like to think I treat people with as little prejudice as possible. Yes, there's always some, but even when that is present I try to ignore it and let the person show me who s/he really is.

                            Liz

                            Is it the struggles that keep us fighting?
                            --Lucky Boys Confusion--
                            You don't ride the papers.

                            Comment


                            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
                              Hobson, I clearly am not a trained rape counselor, but I find the psychology behind sex crimes very fascinating. My thought is that a sexual perpetrator uses sex and the power of the violation to manipulate the victim and thus achieve the affirmation they are lacking in their life.

                              I don't think a rapist says, "man, I think I'm going to get laid tonight" and considers the means at which he goes about it a normal sexual hook-up.

                              Robby

                              _ "Don't mince words, don't be evasive
                              Speak your mind, be persuasive"
                              _ Madonna<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Well, sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. I've spoken with lots of women for whom a normal date involving normal consensual sex suddenly morphed into a rape when the guy decided to ignore the woman's stated limits. That happens a great deal. I wholeheartedly agree that manipulation and coercion are key, but I just don't think that to say "it's not about sex" is accurate.

                              One in four women will experience rape or attempted rape in their lives, and one in four girls/one in six boys is sexually abused as a child. To me, that says there are a LOT of offenders (mainly hetero men) out there who have sexualized their aggression and abusive manipulation. I mean, it's not like in the rest of life women and children are treated like equal members of society, so the fact that sexual behavior is conflated with dominance and aggression seems consistent to me. Rape and abuse aren't extraordinary, unusual events--it's totally normal, accepted, and common behavior.

                              Comment


                              • MissCapitalSplash- I am thrilled you have made such a difference at your school- each and every person should come up to you and thank you because you have made them think about what they say. No one realizes that the words they say can have such an effect on someone. Everytime someone makes a comment such as "That is so gay" or "PersonX is so gay" they don't realize that they may have just made someone feel horrible about themselves. There is NO EXCUSE for this kind of behavior. I am proud to say I have NEVER made such a remark because I would NEVER want anyone to treat me that way.

                                Teachers bring up sex ed but they won't bring up this ever growing problem in society.

                                Dressager
                                You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gambit:
                                  Prejudice is a horrible fact of life - hell, here in GA, we still have active KKK
                                  Ignorance = prejudice....OK, I am prejudiced against Catholics - LOL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  gambit, you pretend to be shocked and horrified by other's prejudice, but seem take delight in your own. The KKK harassed and killed blacks, Jews and catholics with glee - anyone who isn't a straight, white protestant. By Laughing-Out-Loud in openly declaring your prejudice against me and many others on the board, you really stir the pot unnecessarily.

                                  MCS - good for you! We all need to go out of our way to teach tolerance and peace others, if not with words and actions, then by example. Teaching tolerance, respect and civility to your peers cannot be easy. You Go Girl!

                                  Live in peace and let live in peace...

                                  [This message was edited by Miss Perfect on Feb. 19, 2003 at 11:25 AM.]

                                  Comment


                                  • MissPerfect: Whoa now! That is not at all how it was supposed to read...the LOL was about being prejudiced about Catholics! (it was in JEST!) NOT the KKK! FYI, I have been involved in Klanwatch (tracks the Klan's activities and members) for many years because I honestly can't believe the Klan is still active in this day and age...and that they have rallys in front of courthouses...the GBI also shows up at every rally - they know me because they have checked me out to see what I was doing there with camera in hand - documenting the hate!
                                    And thanks for the "old south" reference...gee, that's not prejudiced, is it?

                                    My horse bucked off your honor student!

                                    Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

                                    Comment


                                    • gambit - yes, I apologize. I edited my post after taking that pot-shot at you, realizing what a hippocrit (sp?) I was being. I posted in an emotional state, and I know better. Please accept my apology!

                                      I'm not going to post on the board again today, simply because I woke up on the wrong side of the bed, and am in a nasty mood. Reason has given way to emotion today. sigh...

                                      Comment


                                      • MissPerfect - hey, it happens to us all!
                                        And this thread is emotionally charged! Perhaps I, too, should abstain for the rest of the day...
                                        Eomer: I re-read your post and I still am confused, honestly. No need to be nasty to me...I just wanted clarification.
                                        This is turning into a trainwreck and veering from the original topic...I'm outta here.

                                        My horse bucked off your honor student!

                                        Founder: LOFL (lawn ornaments for life) clique

                                        [This message was edited by gambit on Feb. 19, 2003 at 11:46 AM.]

                                        [This message was edited by gambit on Feb. 19, 2003 at 11:48 AM.]

                                        Comment


                                        • Eomer, I have (surprise surprise!) different opinions, and wonder what you think about the reasons i think differently. I'm not trying to change your mind, but I am wondering how someone with your persective thinks about the following:

                                          You say that we shouldn't judge or assume anything about anyone based on their looks. I agree to a certain point, but...

                                          harken back to the don't-ask-don't-tell policy, which is (I think) similar to your beliefs. what that basically says is "its okay if you're gay so long as you don't act gay or confide in anyone that you're gay." I would interpret that as saying "its okay to be yourself so long as you stifle everything that makes you who you are."

                                          put another way, when we see Joe Somebody on the street we assume he is straight until we have reason to believe otherwise. Just like when we talk to someone on the phone we assume that person is white until we hear an intonation or accent that will lead us to believe otherwise.

                                          In order for the don't-ask-don't-tell policy to be fair, it needs to be applied to str8s as well as gays, and that's asking too much of the human race.

                                          I am in the middle of the Kinsey scale myself, and so i have done a lot of thinking about what makes you straight or gay, and have comcluded that sexuality is an important part of life no matter which side of it you are on, and I would dearly love it if all of my gay friends and straight friends could be held to the SAME social code.

                                          hope that made sense!

                                          **horsie art**

                                          Comment

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